Talk:Le Bœuf sur le toit

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Requested move 17 September 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved.

I discount the proposal to move to The Ox on the Roof not because the IP "looks similar to" known socks, but because it attracts no support and has no basis in policy. The sole opposition is stated to be per WP:FRMOS, but this is based on a misunderstanding and I discount it, for the following reason. MOS:FRENCHCAPS is clear: with the exception of operas and the visual arts, and consistent with French Wikipedia, we follow the Imprimerie nationale / Académie Française method, which provides: "if this initial word is a definite article (le, la, les, l'), both the article and its noun (and any modifier between the article and the noun) are capitalized". Also, per WP:FRENCHNAMES, we retain the ligature.

Accordingly, I find a consensus to move. (non-admin closure) Havelock Jones (talk) 14:22, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

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Le bœuf sur le toit → Le Bœuf sur le toit – Common writing for this piece of music (with a capital "B") as it appears in French Wikpedia and in the content of the article. LeoAlig (talk) 13:12, 17 September 2021 (UTC) — Relisting. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 22:04, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

• Comment: Shouldn't the "œ" be "oe" per WP:TSC and WP:TRANSLITERATE (Amoeba, Oeil-de-boeuf, Onomatopoeia, Coeliac disease, etc.)? —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 14:57, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

No, because those words aren't French. WP:FRMOS ... In ictu oculi (talk) 07:07, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

• Support use of uppercase "B" per nomination and also support Le bœuf sur le toit → Le Boeuf sur le toit per BarrelProof. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 21:24, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
• Move to The Ox on the Roof Because there is clear indication that English title prevailed per WP:USEENGLISH. If this article moved to originally proposed title, a english name should become a redirect to this article. 180.242.45.136 (talk) 00:14, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

This new IP from Sumatra looks similar to sudden socks blocked from RMs several months ago. Plus of course Ox on the roof is never used anywhere. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:06, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose WP:FRMOS would look very odd with capital B. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:04, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

  Already the case for "Le Bœuf sur le toit (cabaret)". Moreover, it is the rule in French language that the first name in the title of an artistic work bears an initial capital (please see [1] "cas n° 2" : « le titre ne forme pas une phrase verbale et commence par un article défini » which means "the title does not form a verbal sentence and begins with a defined article") : this is thus very usual… since it is the rule (example : Le Tambour). Regards. --LeoAlig (talk) 10:27, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

  According to the cited french wiki article there are two different rule sets. The french wikipedia uses the complicated "traditional rules" with additional capital letters, while the english wikipedia usually prefers the "simplified rules". It should be handled consistently. --Rodomonte (talk) 08:05, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

I see no indication at WP:FRMOS of a guideline stating that English Wikipedia "usually prefers" the "simplified rules". It should be indeed handled consistently and, in the absence of a guideline to the contrary, English Wikipedia should not depict original-form French titles in a manner different from our French sister-project. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 22:43, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

I was refering to Category:French-language operas. There are some exceptions, but the great majority of articles ist using the simplified rules. --Rodomonte (talk) 07:02, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera/Article guidelines#Operas: capitalization and diacritics has set forth guidelines based upon opera reference works that are specific to opera titles. These guidelines are not indicated as encompassing other French works of art, such as musical compositions, novels, plays or films. Thus, for all non-opera French works of art that do not have an established English-language title, we should follow French Wikipedia unless there is consensus to the contrary. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 07:57, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.