Talk:Leandro Soto

Sources for collections entries

Lauraj210, what is the source for the list of "Selected collections"? How can a reader verify that Ortiz has work in these collections? No sources are currently cited in the article. I went to the websit3s of several of the institutions listed and tried to search their sites. Several did have search features that list items in their collection by artist. In none of them could I find any mention of Ortiz. That nis not at all conclusive, but it is not encouraging, either. Please provide sources which indicate, for at least some of these collections, that Ortiz has work included. A link to a page of the institution' own site listing the work or works included would be good. So would a news story mentioning the works as being included, perhaps on the occasion of their being donated or purchased by the institution. Such a story need not be online, nor in English. Or a mention in a book. Even a list on Ortiz's own web site would be something. At the moment the list is just hanging in air with no support at all. That is not acceptable. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 13:44, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

Hi DESiegel,

I am removing the Collections from the page until I have time to research further. I have a number of other projects that have been awaiting my attention which I have to deal with now. I am removing the 'under construction' and the 'verifiability' tabs. I'll be in touch down the road... Lauraj210 (talk) 00:18, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

HI again DESiegel, Did you look under Leandro Soto, rather than Ortiz? I've been asked to change the name of the page to "Leandro Soto", as he never uses "Ortiz". I changed the introduction and the infobox. What is the procedure for changing the title of the page, if at all possible? Lauraj210 (talk) 03:07, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Hi Lauraj210. No I looked under Ortiz, with and without first names. I will try it without "Ortiz". An article's name is changed by moving it, and the detailed instructions are at the link. The Move option is usually under he Page menu, depending on your display preferences.

To ping another user in future, use {{U}} or {{ping}} or {{reply to}}. These all do the same basic thing, but display slightly differently. The template must be part of a signed edit. See notifications for details. Thank you. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 03:48, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

I have been able to source his inclusion in two of the collections, Lauraj210, and so I have added those two back in. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 22:20, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Thank you so much DESiegel (talk · contribs) (did I do that correctly?) for cleaning up the various Wickipedia errors, moving the name of the thread and including back two items of the Collections!

One question: in a previous message to me you said "There is no special or specific rule for "Collections". The general rule is that any fact in an article must be verifiable, and that any controversial or negative fact about a living person must be directly supported by a cited source. So must any direct quotation. Any uncited fact about a living person may be challenged, and then must be cited or removed. However, when many facts are already supported by citations, it is less likely that others of a similar type would be challenged. I think you may leave all the collection items in the article until and unless someone does challenge them. Do remember that offline sources are acceptable." Then, in a subsequent message you queried "what is the source for the list of "Selected collections"? How can a reader verify that Ortiz has work in these collections?" (Who knew it would be YOU!  :>)

I'm confused -- can I put back the rest of the Selected collections? Does every one of the items need to have a footnote?

Also, I'm working on putting back the Awards -- I have references for two of them, and another should be obvious to anyone reading the page, but there are four Awards. Can I put back the whole four?

I see the end in sight for this series of edits. Thank you for ALL your help! Lauraj210 (talk) 20:27, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Hello again, Lauraj210

• You did the ping fine, and it worked.
• When i wrote the above you ad asked abut the "Collections" section, but I was looking at the "Solo Exhibits" and "Shared exhibits" each of which then had four items, two of them with cited sources. That feels a bit different from a dozen items, none sourced. But when i later asked "what is the source for the list of "Selected collections?" I meant to ask where you got the list -- how you knew which items to include, thinking that that might constitute a citable source. I realize that I sounded, and was, a bit inconsistent, and indeed Wikipedia practice and policies ar a bit inconsistent on this issue. All I can say is that it is always better to have a source except for the very most obvious statements (see You don't need to cite that the sky is blue), especially when dealing with a living person. But when you are confident that a statement is accurate, and it is not a negative or contentious statement about a person, and it does not contain a quote, it may be left until someone challenges it. However, if you honestly believe that no source could be found if it wee demanded, then please do not include it. Suppose a reader wanted to verify one of the collection items, and was willing to spend significant time and money in the process, could it be done? If not, that item should not be included. I did try to source several others at the web sites of the museums involved, and could not do so. So including any uncited items in the lit is a judgement call, but when most of the items are uncited, it sort of invites a challenge.
• Much the same applies to the awards. If three of four are cited, a reader might accept the fourth on faith. But where did you get the list of four? That place might possibly be a valid source.

I am glad to have been of help. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 21:27, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Hi DESiegel (talk · contribs) -- I got all the information from Leandro's CV, and he advised me which important shows and Collections to include in his page. The info about the Collections is in the bio section of leandrosoto.com, but that would not help a Wikipedia reader, would it? -- they would have to call the museums directly if they wanted complete confirmation. (Maybe I should reference the phone numbers of the various institutions -- just joking here!) I'll see if I can get more references for the Collection... Lauraj210 (talk) 23:50, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Information obtained orally or in a private latter is of course not published and so is not citable here, Lauraj210. However, a web page is considered published. The artist's web page is of course a self-published source and a primary source and so is not the best source, but for non-contentious facts it can be cited, see the details at the self-published source link. Such a source is better than no source at all. Of course a museum phone number should not be cited (Ha Ha), but those museums that have Wikipedia articles will normally link to the museum web site, which will normally have a phone number. Wikipedia can often accept reasonable confirmation on non-contentious statements, rather than total perfect confirmation. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 00:11, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Primary sources as a last resort, DESiegel (talk · contribs)! I found two more articles for Cronicas visuales and in reading the last one (Ana Leon), I saw a reference to the permanent collection at Museo Nacional de Bellas Artes (just under the first set of pictures), so I added that one back to Collections. I keep forgetting to do the edit summary -- is there a way to correct without undoing, after it's been published? (I know that by clicking on prev everyone can see the change, but forgetting is not the Wikipedia way...) I'll try my best to remember in future! Lauraj210 (talk) 02:29, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Lauraj210 on the editing tab of the Preferences screen (Special:Preferences ) there is an option labeled "Prompt me when entering a blank edit summary". If you select this option, the software will warn you when saving if you have omitted an edit summary, and require you to add one, or confirm that you want to save without one. I have had this option checked for years. Several of the other options on that tab can also be useful.

oh when the indent level gets too high and you drop back to no indents, you can use {{od}} to mark this -- it stands for "OutDent" and draws a line figure intended to represent the change in indent level. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 23:03, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks once again DESiegel (talk · contribs) -- I changed to the reminder of the blank edit summary (better late than never), added the correct time zone for Miami, and I have added the {{od}} to my personal Wikipedia file.

Our collaberation produced a page that is starting to look good! You've saved my ass more than once -- I'm eternally grateful! I've reached the end of my current edits (barring any unforeseen additions, and pictures -- Leandro himself has taken a lot of pictures...can I use them without copyright infringement?), so I would appreciate your looking over the whole page just to make sure I've covered everything. Leandro is shortly moving to Mexico, but I've alerted him, when he has any updates, to let me know and I'll make further edits.

On another subject, would you be willing to help me edit Susan Boyle's page? I am past president of her fanclub, and am currently content manager of susan-boyle.com The person who was editing Susan's Wikipedia page retired from that duty. If you are, it will take me a while to get around to it -- I will have to enlist other fans' help (I can't do everything myself!), but already I see errors. Let me know...

Regards from Miami Lauraj210 (talk) 01:25, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Pictures

The simplest thing, Lauraj210, would be if Leandro were to create his own account and upload them to Commons as "own work", provided he is willing to release them under CC-BY-SA 3.0. He might (and probably should) need to send a confirming email to "permissions-commons AT wikimedia DOT org", as described in Donating Copyrighted Materials.

Failing that, you could get him to send you an email releasing the photos, then you forward it to "permissions-commons AT wikimedia DOT org" as described in Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission. Please follow all the steps there.

In either case, be sure that he understands that this will mean that anyone, anywhere in the world, can reuse the photo for any purpose, including by selling it, and/or can create modified versions of it, provided only that they give him proper credit. He would not be entitled to any fees or royalties, even if the photo is used commercially. Such a release is permanent, and may not be withdrawn or canceled. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 03:54, 7 May 2018 (UTC)