This article has been turned into a lot of political bleating. "Don't shit in the well." --Jquarry 22:26, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
- I am australian yet had never heard the term leb until the 2005 Sydney race riots. Was the term leb something that only emerged with that incident? Even the Australian words article listed only lebo (something I had heard used - even by at least one Lebanese person) but not leb. If this article sprung up only because of one incident where the term leb was used maybe it is a little premature to be giving the term a definition as if it is a common, accepted, and enduring sentiment. I also disagree about it being ascribed to all Australians when apparently the situation applies only to a small region of Sydney. Not all of Aust. Precinct13 01:29, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
- Its current in Sydney slang derrived, as you point out, from lebo. I suspect the reason for the new version of the word is the hard b sound at the end of leb (compare "fuck"'s hard k, etc) which increases the slur. Lebo has a bit of the -o diminuitive. The article should probably be moved to "lebo" with a redirect and an indication of "leb" as a synonym. Fifelfoo 01:52, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
- Both Leb and Lebo have been part of the vernacular for a number of years, although the former probably limited to Sydney. --Jquarry 02:42, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
- Is the word really this offensive? Many Australians regardless of ethnicity use it, I've only heard of it being a slur until these 2005 Sydney race riots and even then it was probably used as a more formal way of saying "wog".--Greasysteve13 03:52, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
- Yeah I've never really known lebo to be all that offensive (though I don't use it myself) and it seems mainly used by the Lebanese themselves. Its use in these riots as such a derogatory term seems to be a new thing. Like how the word wog has been used in these riots, long after the terms became rather common and not too offensive words and decades after mainstream shows like Wogs Out Of Work came out. Overall the article is ascribing too much racial sentiment to the word which heretofore was pretty common and not too offensive. However my biggest objection is to the following bit of conjecture and speculalion from the article: "However, in Australian conceptions of race and ethnicity the slur leb makes a claim that all Lebanese are Muslims, and that being Islamic is something shameful." That statement seems to be a bit of a stretch. Precinct13 05:31, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
- I just did a quick google on "leb " in Aust sites and it does seem to be a pretty standard shortening with no special or particular racist or derogatory meanings. Eg there are a few grocery retailers who list such products as "leb bread" or "leb cucumbers". Other sites feature apparently lebanese people calling themselves "leb". However there are very few hits: most sites seem to be totally unrelated and feature LEB as some unrelated acronym. It doesn't seem too different from "Vic" from Victoria/n. Ppl from other states sometimes do use "Vic" in a derogatory sense to criticise Victoria/ns, but that does not mean the term itself is, or is always derog., and it is used officialy in Victoria all the time. Precinct13 05:46, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
- If you live in Sydney, and aged between 14-35 the term "Leb" has been used for years. Regardless of which socio-economic/geographic part you come from, North Shore, Western Suburbs, Eastern Suburbs or the Shire, it is common vernacular to use the term "lebs" in Sydney. In terms of levels of offensiveness it is similar to "wog", or if you are from the US, the term "nigger". Some young people of Lebanese descent call themselves "leb" in informal speech, but it is faux pas to use the term in unfamiliar, formal or work situations. I don't think it was initially termed or perceived to be offensive like "abo". Instead it was the result of the typical laziness of Australian speech to shorten long words. Does anyone here find the term "Jap", "kiwi", "indo", "Pom" or "Yank" offensive? I've heard news presenters and news paper articles use these terms in their stories and no one blinks an eye. But believe me, the term "leb" has been used by the younger generation of Sydney siders way before the Sydney riots. If you don't trust me, call someone who has lived in Sydney for a couple of years and in the age bracket described above and ask them if they have heard of "lebs".
Lebanese Australian
edit- Would it be all right to move this article on to Lebanese-Australian?
- The inflammatory climate at the moment...Anyway, make a more 'serious' one like the one about Greek-Australian and Italian-Australian and other important ethnicities.
--EuropracBHIT 09:50, 14 December 2005 (UTC).
- That would be ok by me, the creator of this article. I would add a section on the terms leb and lebo and how their meaning has changed over timeMPS 14:52, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
- Disagree. This article should never have been created in the first place and should be deleted. If there was a need in wikipedia to explain that leb was simply a short form of Lebanese, then that should have been done in the List of ethnic slurs article. However leb article was created, then lots of unsourced speculation was added to it, and then leb was added to Australian words even though it had never been listed there before. A pre-existing, sometimes-used Sydney slang term being used in an abberant incident does not quite constitute a change in meaning. It is only in wikipedia that there seems to be a focus on the word leb, in other discussions I've observed no special focus on this piece of terminology. Precinct13 20:18, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
- What are you saying-- that Lebanese-Australian is an inappropriate article subject? As an American who had never heard of Lebs/Lebos/Lebanese-Australians, I think there needs to be something in Wikipedia that talks about this social group and its relation to Australian Culture. After thinking about this, I discovered that Wikipedia has articles on Italian-Americans, German-Americans, Mexican-American, and Greek-American because these are significant to our nation's history and culture. Wassup, Australia? Afraid to talk about your Lebanese subculture? MPS 20:40, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
- Don't jump to conclusions, MPS. What Precinct13 is questioning is the value of including a discussion on some slang term and how it has changed over time. There is no metion that "Lebanese-Australian" is considered inappropriate. --Jquarry 21:07, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
- What are you saying-- that Lebanese-Australian is an inappropriate article subject? As an American who had never heard of Lebs/Lebos/Lebanese-Australians, I think there needs to be something in Wikipedia that talks about this social group and its relation to Australian Culture. After thinking about this, I discovered that Wikipedia has articles on Italian-Americans, German-Americans, Mexican-American, and Greek-American because these are significant to our nation's history and culture. Wassup, Australia? Afraid to talk about your Lebanese subculture? MPS 20:40, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
- Disagree. This article should never have been created in the first place and should be deleted. If there was a need in wikipedia to explain that leb was simply a short form of Lebanese, then that should have been done in the List of ethnic slurs article. However leb article was created, then lots of unsourced speculation was added to it, and then leb was added to Australian words even though it had never been listed there before. A pre-existing, sometimes-used Sydney slang term being used in an abberant incident does not quite constitute a change in meaning. It is only in wikipedia that there seems to be a focus on the word leb, in other discussions I've observed no special focus on this piece of terminology. Precinct13 20:18, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
- That would be ok by me, the creator of this article. I would add a section on the terms leb and lebo and how their meaning has changed over timeMPS 14:52, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
- The problem is that the title of the article was/is leb, and the focus of the article seemed to be a dictionary entry on a racial slur. The current content of the article seems highly questionable and is unsourced. This current article seems to be mainly connected to a single incident in a single place that happened just a few days ago. The article featured no discussion of Lebanese cultures through the various decades that have existed in Australia, nor does it describe Lebanese communities in various regions across Australia. Furthermore this article's claims of what the term leb is used to mean does not pass the google test. It wasn't even known enough to have made into wikipedia at all until the last few days. I have nothing against a properly written authoritative and sourced article about Lebanese Australians (with that title) that actually describes situations beyond last week in Sydney. This article needs to be deleted and there is nothing preventing an authoritative editor from creating a new Lebanese-Australian article. Precinct13 21:14, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
- yeah thanks Jquarry. Precinct13 21:15, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
- Perhaps a sentence or two about 'Leb/Lebo' that is not covered in the List of ethnic slurs/Australian words. I must thank MPS for being willing to learn about other countries/cultures (though I too question the emphasis on a racist term that isn't really all that racist). We can refer to it, but no more, and say it is what Lebanese-Australians call themselves. Really the article needs to be much more about the history and contributions that Lebanese-Australians have made, as well as basic demographic information. In my research, though, the high amount of Google hits on a nationalist youth group seems to be a worry. Again, it is a small amount of people who can do a potentially large amount of damage. And in the academic world, they're generally discussed as Arab-Australians, or a subset of this group.EuropracBHIT
- Agreed. Any discussion on a racial moniker, or any slang term, does not carry much value for two reasons. First, the meaning and shades of meaning naturally change over time and vary from place to place. Second, any term based on race can be friendly or offensive depending on context. There is a big difference between me saying "I'm phoning my Leb mate", and being called a "Leb c***" by a bunch of hoons in the street. I think there is great value in a Lebanese-Australian article. It is important for the cultural value, for one. But also I think it is significant because the immigration of these folks marks an important turning point for Australian society. For example, it is the first time Islam has made a significant presence in this country, with the associated issues, such as the Hajib and the unfair press that religion has had recently. --Jquarry 21:50, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
- Ok then. It seems to me that nobody would be too upset if we delete the Leb article and create a new article called Lebanese Australian and inculde beau coup NPOV information on the complete history of Lebanese people in Australia. Regarding the comment "It wasn't even known enough to have made into wikipedia at all until the last few days. " I say that the fact that an article did not exist yesterday is not sufficient reason to say that it shouldn't exist today. Regarding the comment "Perhaps a sentence or two about 'Leb/Lebo' that is not covered in the List of ethnic slurs/Australian words." I say that redundancy is good and therefore a discussion of the terms Leb/Lebo can overlap with that found in the ethnic slurs page. Shall we have a virtual group hug now? Then someone can delete this article. MPS 21:59, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
- Agreed. Any discussion on a racial moniker, or any slang term, does not carry much value for two reasons. First, the meaning and shades of meaning naturally change over time and vary from place to place. Second, any term based on race can be friendly or offensive depending on context. There is a big difference between me saying "I'm phoning my Leb mate", and being called a "Leb c***" by a bunch of hoons in the street. I think there is great value in a Lebanese-Australian article. It is important for the cultural value, for one. But also I think it is significant because the immigration of these folks marks an important turning point for Australian society. For example, it is the first time Islam has made a significant presence in this country, with the associated issues, such as the Hajib and the unfair press that religion has had recently. --Jquarry 21:50, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
- Perhaps a sentence or two about 'Leb/Lebo' that is not covered in the List of ethnic slurs/Australian words. I must thank MPS for being willing to learn about other countries/cultures (though I too question the emphasis on a racist term that isn't really all that racist). We can refer to it, but no more, and say it is what Lebanese-Australians call themselves. Really the article needs to be much more about the history and contributions that Lebanese-Australians have made, as well as basic demographic information. In my research, though, the high amount of Google hits on a nationalist youth group seems to be a worry. Again, it is a small amount of people who can do a potentially large amount of damage. And in the academic world, they're generally discussed as Arab-Australians, or a subset of this group.EuropracBHIT