Talk:Lebanese prisoners in Israel

this article states names of people while the linked sources do not back up the information

i looked up: "Mohamad Ali Gharib" and came up with nothing anywhere but the unsubstanciated input on wiki

Above is an unsigned comment by Jaakobou

I agree, this needs to be fixed. There are ways to make the presentation neutral. We need to made clear that it is the Khiam Center that is asserting these people were arrested during the Israeli occupation and are still unaccounted for. In addition, some of the wording needs to be changed, such as "kidnapped". Sanguinalis 15:02, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

i'd like to add that the Khiam Center, which is quoted, is undoubtedly biased and I slightly toned down the bias of the text, mainly by removing the title "israeli occupation army" from most of the lines about these alleged prisoners.

there's also missing information about the release of about 60 lebanese prisoners and 60 remains from the 2004 prisoner to hostage exchange [420 more palestinians were released], if someone edits this in the future - maybe me - he should add this information and should probably remove the unsubstantiated notes of the Khiam Center - I did not remove them, since i did not explore them enough to make an assertion of the actuality of the mentioned people.. "Mohamad Ali Gharib" though, seems non existant, you would expect his family to make a website for him same as Samir Kuntar has become an international hero for terrorists... they call him "brave freedom fighter".. yeah, very brave to kill a 4 year old girl by hitting her with the bud of your rifle. </rant> Jaakobou 18:27, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

to correct your information that 4 year old girl was killed by her mother.suffucated so she won't scream. please before you post you hatred remarks research your facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Merhi2580 (talk • contribs)

You've made a mistake, the four year old was captured with her dad at the apartment while the mom and the other child which was younger were hiding in a crawl-space, the terrorists were making a lot of noise since they knew there were more people at the apartment, i've read somewhere that they even used a grenade in the apartment, but i can't find the link to it so i don't have any validation on the grenade part. later the killing of the father and daughter were done at the beach where the boat they came in was sitting. Jaakobou 22:47, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I am not convinced that the article's title is correct. It is called "Lebanese prisoners in Israel", but it also lists missing people whose whereabouts are unknown and there is no reason to believe that they are held in Israel; it also lists people who are held by Israel only according to Hezbollah. The title should be changed. Deinocheirus (talk) 17:14, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Khiam Center list of missing persons

What appears to the same list was formally presented in a letter [1] to the United Nations by the Lebanese Permanent Representative in March 2004 (after the prisoner exchange). Sanguinalis 02:56, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

i'm not protesting about the seriousness of the Khiam Center's letters, but about the factuality of their "evidence" and names - there are many possibilities to stories from 1984 being false.. just the other day i was reading that one of those people - i'm terribly sorry i don't have the link - that were "seen" was actually killed in some operation. Jaakobou 17:35, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Since the cited Document is from the United Nations, and has not been disputed by them, what is the problem with factual accuracy? 206.248.152.212 (talk) 17:40, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

The link above points to this document, which identifies itself as a letter dated 25 March 2004 from the Permanent Mission of Lebanon to the United Nations Office at Geneva addressed to the Chairperson of the Commission on Human Rights. That being the case, the document may be "from" the UN ion the sense that it is published on a UN website, but it is "from", in the sense of being authored by, some person on the Permanent Mission of Lebanon to the United Nations.

In the article's Deceased militants allegedly kept in Israel section, there is a link to this MS Word document also published on a UN website, which is a list of detainee names apparently authored by someone at the Khiam Rehabilitation Center for The Victims Of Torture.

Keep in mind here WP:V, which says, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth" What is verifiable here is that these lists, authored by their respective authors and published by their respective publishers do contain particular names. Whether or not those names are the names of persons who are or were actual detainees is not verifiable via these documents, and should not be presented as fact. That the documents contain the names is a fact, and is verifiable. The documents should speak for themselves. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 23:28, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree, and that is the way the material is presented now. All that is being asserted is that a representative of the Lebanese government made these allegations. Everything is qualified with "allegedly" or "said to have been". The factual accuracy tag should be removed. Sanguinalis (talk) 10:51, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

IDF or IOF

Current biased release of this article allows the usage of the nickname "Israel Occuation Army". Personally, i'm tried of playing this game with the pro-terrorist crowd that allows themselves to say Samir Kuntar is innocent and all of this false propaganda - the only reason they can call it IOF is because in 1967, four arab countries tried to slaughter all the jewish population in Israel so the IDF was able to push them back.. far back so that the next time they try something, Israel would have some defensible borders. Jaakobou 02:58, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

corrected the bias representation. Jaakobou 00:42, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

In the opinion of The United Netion an ivading army to a land that is not theirs is called occupation so isreal ocuppied army Unsigned by Ahoerstemeier

The name of the Israeli army is Israeli Defense Army, if someone, desired to call it an occupying force in lebanon, i find that statement negociable as they went into lebanon to stop the terrorist attacks of both the PLO and syrian powers.. as for blatantly changing the name of the israeli army to IOF.. i find that to be a common factor in biased sources.

Jaakobou 23:34, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Is Jaakobou really any authority on unbiased speech? Unbiased coverage of the dispute cuts both ways, and I think the fairest standard is to reference the UN.

IDF or IOF it does not matter

I am quite surprised to see people shocked when calling the IDF an occupation force. I think it is tolerated to call the IDF an occupation force in Lebanon, since they spent a quarter century on Lebanese soils torturing Lebanese citizens that refused to enrole in the Army of South-Lebanon, a pro-Israeli militia. As for the Kantar case, it is understandable from the Israelis; it is not tolerated to kill civilians, that makes the IDF the number one terrorist organisation/army in the whole planet, a small reminder for those who blindly defend the IDF. Ahage4x4 21:32, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Nice work presenting your bias.

1) can you even tell me why the IDF went into lebanon in the first place ?

2) can you explain to me why martyrdom "resistance" jihad is the number one cult in muslim culture but then crying about those brainwashed dead is the number 2 cult culture?

to put it "mildly" this is the reason children die in this conflict: [2][3]

if this child -> [4] <- would have been shot.. would he have been counted as both a child and an innocent civillian killed by the "evil zionist IOF" ?

do you count these deaths as a result of the I"O"F also -> [5]

a palestinian talking about growing up in the PA: [6]

last video for your consideration: [7]

point is.. if you take/push kids to the battle field and blame the other side for being inhumain killing them ... where's the honesty? where's yours?

instead of speaking out of bigoted prejudice, why don't you make some research in places that are not dedicated to hate-speech?

Jaakobou 08:04, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't see why user:Jaakobou should be permitted to edit wikipedia articles pertaining to Middle Eastern conflict after having obviously disclosed that he has a deep Conflict of Interest, namely he puts his political beliefs and the presentation of them well above the need for accuracy on wikipedia. The same goes for anyone with obvious COI. (sorry I didn't sign in, I'm too lazy; if someone needs to know who I am just ask. Thanks.) 79.177.239.120 (talk) 05:29, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

"there are currently two Lebanese citizens in Israeli prisons"

I added {{citation needed}} for this quote. There are two versions of the BBC arcticle:

• 26 July 2006

• 16 July 2008

The first version mentions four prisoners (including Ali Faratan). The second says that Samir Qantar, Nissim Nasser and four other Lebanese prisoners (6 put together) were released in 2008. This is contradicting. Both versions also say "Although Israel is also thought to be holding 25 Lebanese citizens of Palestinian origin - many for conventional criminal offences - their release is not understood to be at the heart of the dispute with Hezbollah." Vints (talk) 15:21, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it's contradicting at all, as you're negating the fact that Israel captured 4 additional prisoners in 2006. In 2006, at the start of the war, Hezbollah claimed Israel had 4 prisoners (that's per your first source). In the war in 2006, Israel captured 4 additional prisoners. In June 2008, it released Nissim Nasser, then in July 2008 traded Kuntar and the 4 captured during the war for the remains of their soldiers, making 6 prisoners total. That means by Hezbollah's claim, they would still have 2 left over from prior to the 2006 war - specifically Yehia Skaff and Ali Faratan (4 from before 2006 + 4 from 2006 war - 6 released in 2008 = 2 left). ← George ^[talk] 20:05, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you are right, didn't think about that. But it would still be good with a single source that verifies that there are now only two prisoners. Now it fails WP:SYNTH, but perhaps it is not a very big problem. Vints (talk) 13:29, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I totally agree that a single source would be far superior, but I'm just not sure one can be found for something so specific. I was debating the WP:SYNTH issue myself, but I seem to remember that simple math didn't violate WP:SYNTH... I can't find the policy details at the moment, so my memory may be faulty, or the policy may have changed. We may be able to reword the statement to leave it more ambiguous (Hezbollah claimed Israel had four prisoners... Israel captured four additional prisoners in 2006... Israel released six prisoners in 2008). ← George ^[talk] 19:38, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, this is the policy I was thinking of, from "What is not original research?":

Editors may make straightforward mathematical calculations or logical deductions based on fully attributed data that neither change the significance of the data nor require additional assumptions beyond what is in the source. It should be possible for any reader without specialist knowledge to understand the deductions. For example, if a published source gives the numbers of votes cast in an election by candidate, it is not original research to include percentages alongside the numbers, so long as it is a simple calculation and the vote counts all come from the same source. Deductions of this nature should not be made if they serve to advance a position, or if they are based on source material published about a topic other than the one at hand.

Now, this may not apply in this case, as we're using multiple sources for these figures. ← George ^[talk] 19:49, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

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