Talk:Legitimate theatre

Outside of England? Suggestion

The first article listed in today's (29 Nov 2021) "Did You Know" section states "that the Lyceum Theatre is New York City's oldest continuously operating legitimate theater?" So I clicked on "legitimate theater" to understand the concept better, but this article explains legitimacy in terms of English law. How can a New York City theater be legitimate or even illegitimate? Either THIS article needs to be expanded to include other jurisdictions, or THAT article needs to use a different term. --Keeves (talk) 14:40, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Look up reliable sources that discuss "legitimate" theatre in the U.S. I think you will find it is a hippy-dippy term that variously means (i) theatres that present tragedies and other serious dramas (as opposed to comedy or musicals) (ii) theatres that are never used for film or other "non-theatrical" uses (which gets us into grey areas -- what if there was a concert on the stage?), or (iii) theatres that are traditional proscenium theatre spaces. That is to say, there is no rigorous definition outside the U.K. The Lyceum Theatre (Broadway) article cites three sources for the proposition that it is the "oldest continuously operating legitimate theater", which all seem to mean no more than that it is the only Broadway theatre that made it all the way through the 20th century without ever playing films or being used (even briefly) as something other than a theatre (sort of meaning number (ii) above). A pretty relaxed, and nearly meaningless, reading of the term. So, both this article and the Lyceum Theatre article are correct in context, though I agree that it shouldn't link to this article. But if you can expand this article with reliable sources that give a useful definition outside the UK, go for it. -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:45, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Now the Lead section and the History section describe two different definitions of legitimate theatre. -- Ssilvers (talk) 08:01, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Even worse is that the claims about non-diagetic dialogue etc, are unsourced and overly broad original interpretation. The idea that Broadway musicals are not legit theatre is junk. Seriously, in the New York theatre industry (of which I am a part) the term is used specifically to contrast with non-narrative live performances such as concerts and revues. The second source referring to "musical comedies" is actually referring to those sorts of revues perhaps with the barest of plots, which Broadway largely comprised until Showboat changed, well, everything. This isn't to say Broadway musicals are never loosely plotted revues anymore (Cats is pretty much just that), but it's rare someone wouldn't call musicals "legit theatre" in New York. oknazevad (talk) 01:07, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Haha. You just threw Jerome Kern, the Gershwins, Victor Herbert, George M. Cohan, early Rodgers and Hart, and the Princess Theatre musicals under the bus. Not all early musicals had "the barest of plots", though Show Boat was, I agree, very important. -- Ssilvers (talk) 01:44, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Towards improvement: adding sources and removing assertions.

This is presently a shockingly terrible article, which fails to meet many of Wikipedia’s editorial standards. It should be improved. One way to improve the article is to permanently delete all assertions and opinions. Another way to improve the article is to rigorously cite primary sources (contemporary artifacts) and reputable secondary sources (expert analysis) to support all claims of fact, especially vernacular, idiomatic, historical, or legal terms of art which are understandbly unfamiliar to most readers for various reasons. In this regard, this article can and should be valuable and helpful. It presently is certainly not. This is why it urgently needs improvement.

Towards that end, here are some possible sources which article editors interested in this topic might consider incorporating:

• https://www.britannica.com/art/Western-theatre/The-American-theatre
• https://www.proquest.com/openview/c366084afcaab2fb876eb965ab619a5f/1?
• ”2nd National Convention of the Legitimate Theatre Program 1938 Alfred Lunt” see for example: https://www.ebay.com/itm/380783396814
• https://www.cambridge.org/us/universitypress/subjects/arts-theatre-culture/british-theatre/illegitimate-theatre-london-17701840# which is also available online for free as a PDF here: https://catdir.loc.gov/catdir/samples/cam031/00028953.pdf
• regarding background for the political and religious regulation of theatre in England during the era(s) of the protestant Reformation, the rise of the Puritan movement, the counter-Reformation and Marian sectarian violence (ie the burning of protestants) and conceptual schism between government-regulated professional theatre versus other forms of live performance art, see this thoughtful and concise book: https://www.google.com/books/edition/Puritanism_and_Theatre/MLt_TZQQXcAC While this book does not explicitly use the phrase “Legitimate Theatre” it gives a lot of background on ‘’why’’ live theatre (and also the printing of poetry and books) was licensed and rigorously overseen by the state. From that moment, the origins of legitimate versus all other theater, conceptually follows.
• https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/legitimate with regards “8. Theater of or pertaining to professionally produced stage plays, as distinguished from burlesque, vaudeville, television, motion pictures, etc | an actor in the legitimate theater”
• https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/legitimate-theater with regards “Legitimate theater means the premises in which the principal business shall be the operation of live theatrical, operatic, or dance performances, the operation of recreational facilities, the viewing of motion picture films, or such other lawful adult entertainment as the Board, giving due regard to the convenience of the public and the strict avoidance of sales prohibited by this title, shall classify as a legitimate theater.”
• https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803100058622 specifically evidencing the use of “legit” as a valid contraction of legitimate in this academy: “Quick Reference—sometimes abbreviated to ‘legit’—term which arose in the 18th century during the struggle of the Patent Theatres Covent Garden and Drury Lane against the illegitimate playhouses springing up all over… From: Legitimate Drama in The Concise Oxford Companion to the Theatre | Subjects: Performing arts — Theatre”
• See also the Washington DC government website (https://abca.dc.gov/#gsc) for the modern document ‘GOVERNMENT OF THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA Alcoholic Beverage Regulation Administration’ which includes for example this useful and present-tense definition:
  • “(29) “Legal drinking age” means 21 years of age.
  • (30) “Legitimate theater” means the premises in which the principal business shall be the operation of live theatrical, operatic, or dance performances, the operation of recreational facilities, the viewing of motion picture films, or such other lawful adult entertainment as the Board, giving due regard to the convenience of the public and the strict avoidance of sales prohibited by this title, shall classify as a legitimate theater.
  • (31) “Locality” means the neighborhood within 600 feet of an establishment.”

WHICH NOTABLY CONFLATES THE HISTORICAL DEFINITIONS OF LEGITIMATE AND ILLEGITIMATE THEATRE TO INCLUDE FILM, OPERA, DANCE OR BY EXTENSION PERHAPS EVEN STRIPSHOWS… which is a) laughable, b) antithetical to the former term of art, and c) thus illustrates the fact (as opposed to my mere opinion) that: ‘’'the definition of, and entire concept of “Legitimate Theater” is obsolete because it is demonstrably, literally meaningless in the 21st century’'’.

Lastly, this article relies excessively on boldface fonts. Its author(s) and editor(s) should reconsider the error(s) of their ways.

Good luck, 2600:4040:5AEF:B400:582D:AC51:7B4A:1362 (talk) 13:19, 8 October 2024 (UTC)