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Talk:Leigh Bardugo

Latest comment: 28 days ago by Danbloch in topic Israeli-American
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Israeli-American

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Latest comment: 28 days ago38 comments3 people in discussion

By Wikipedia's guidelines, Leigh Bardugo should not be described as Israeli-American.

First, her citizenship doesn't appear in any WP:RELIABLE source. The source provided isn't reliable by Wikipedia's standards (doesn't have a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy), and its use of "Israeli American" was probably copied from Wikipedia.

Second, and more important, "Israeli-" shouldn't appear regardless of whether or not Bardugo has Israeli citizenship. This is not a list of citizenships. Per WP:NATIONALITY, the opening paragraph should usually provide context for that which made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory where the person is currently a national or permanent resident. Regardless of whether Bargugo has Israeli citizenship, the context is that she's a resident of the United States and publishes her books in the United States. Dan Bloch (talk) 09:13, 18 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

I've made this change. Dan Bloch (talk) 20:08, 21 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
Did you check her biography?[1] She is Jewish, Israeli, and American according to the cited sources.[1] Bardugo was born in Jerusalem, Israel on April 6, 1975, and grew up in Los Angeles, California, U.S.[2][3][4] where she was raised by her grandparents.[5] She is secular Jewish and of Moroccan Jewish descent on her father's side,[6] and of Ashkenazi Jewish (Russian-Jewish and Lithuanian-Jewish) descent on her mother's side.[7][8]

References

  1. ^ a b Mirsky, Maya (11 May 2021). "'Shadow and Bone' is Jewish; Rogen is done with Franco; Ethiopian Jew is going to Eurovision; etc". J. The Jewish News of Northern California. San Francisco. Archived from the original on 9 June 2023. Retrieved 14 May 2024.
  2. ^ Jones, Michael M. (June 29, 2012). "Spring 2012 Flying Starts: Leigh Bardugo". Publishers Weekly. Archived from the original on April 16, 2019. Retrieved February 22, 2018.
  3. ^ Lyall, Sarah (October 3, 2019). "A Star of Y.A. Imagines a Supernatural Ivy League in Her Debut for Adults". The New York Times. Archived from the original on August 4, 2022. Retrieved August 4, 2022.
  4. ^ "Leigh Bardugo: Radical Balance". Locus. Retrieved January 28, 2024.
  5. ^ Lee, Stephan (June 4, 2013). "Veronica Roth and Leigh Bardugo in conversation about YA lit". Entertainment Weekly. Archived from the original on May 26, 2018. Retrieved May 25, 2018.
  6. ^ "Leigh Bardugo: Grounded in fantasy". INQUIRER.net. July 12, 2015. Archived from the original on June 11, 2020. Retrieved June 11, 2020.
  7. ^ Johnson, Chandra (September 25, 2015). "Young adult author talks religion, teens and the message of her popular fiction". Deseret News. Archived from the original on February 16, 2020. Retrieved February 16, 2020.
  8. ^ Leigh Bardugo (March 7, 2014). "Anonymous asked". Archived from the original on April 14, 2021. Retrieved February 16, 2020 – via Tumblr.

GenoV84 (talk) 17:26, 23 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Please note that Dan Bloch stated that the Jewish News of NC is not (necessarily) a reliable source which would nullify your first reference on which your entire argument is built. That she is Jewish as some of the other source say, is arguably no stronger claim for Israeli citizenship than being Catholic would be for Vatican city citizenship. Arnoutf (talk) 18:05, 23 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
I disagree. She was born in Israel, to a Jewish mother nonetheless, and that's her primary citizenship, whether you like it or not. Please check out how Israeli citizenship works, because she is first and foremost an Israeli citizen. GenoV84 (talk) 08:08, 24 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
That is definitely not common global view on nationalism. This is English Wiki, not Israelite. Ihis Israelite law in fact goes against the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights right to change nationality. To me it appears rather unbalanced to put the law of a very small country above the UN in this Wiki. Arnoutf (talk) 13:59, 24 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
@GenoV84: You appear to have just copy-pasted a non-current version of the Bardugo article. This doesn't address the issue. Dan Bloch (talk) 19:29, 23 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
Other online sources extensively refer to her Jewish and Israeli background regarding her literary works, which seems to be far more important than being raised in the U.S..[1][2]

References

  1. ^ Karpen, Elizabeth (24 April 2024). "Leigh Bardugo delves into magic, intrigue, and her Sephardic heritage in 'The Familiar'". Jewish Unpacked. Retrieved 24 August 2024.
  2. ^ Briger, Sam (30 April 2024). "Fantasy writer Leigh Bardugo on magic, miracles and her version of hell". NPR. Retrieved 24 August 2024.

GenoV84 (talk) 08:14, 24 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

I looked in your sources. Neither source you add here even report the term Israel in connection to Bardugo, making it even irrelevant to judge whether these sources are reliable. Jewish - yes that is reported (but there is no discussion about that), but Israel no. So you still have to provide a reliable source that explicitly makes that claim ( the religion (Jewish) and the nationality (Israel) are 2 very distinct things). Arnoutf (talk) 13:30, 24 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Arnoutf: and @Danbloch:
  1. You didn't check enough, apparently. Because it's written right there in Jweekly: Israeli American, and the source dates back to 2021, when she wasn't even referred to as being Israeli in her WP biography.[1]
  2. She is of Jewish descent from both parents, as many of the cited sources here clearly report.[2][3][4][5][6]
  3. Judaism is a religion, not an ethnicity. Jewish people are an ethnicity, not a religion. Prove me wrong.

References

  1. ^ Mirsky, Maya (11 May 2021). "'Shadow and Bone' is Jewish; Rogen is done with Franco; Ethiopian Jew is going to Eurovision; etc". J. The Jewish News of Northern California. San Francisco. Archived from the original on 9 June 2023. Retrieved 14 May 2024.
  2. ^ Karpen, Elizabeth (24 April 2024). "Leigh Bardugo delves into magic, intrigue, and her Sephardic heritage in 'The Familiar'". Jewish Unpacked. Retrieved 24 August 2024.
  3. ^ Briger, Sam (30 April 2024). "Fantasy writer Leigh Bardugo on magic, miracles and her version of hell". NPR. Retrieved 24 August 2024.
  4. ^ "Leigh Bardugo: Grounded in fantasy". INQUIRER.net. July 12, 2015. Archived from the original on June 11, 2020. Retrieved June 11, 2020.
  5. ^ Johnson, Chandra (September 25, 2015). "Young adult author talks religion, teens and the message of her popular fiction". Deseret News. Archived from the original on February 16, 2020. Retrieved February 16, 2020.
  6. ^ Leigh Bardugo (March 7, 2014). "Anonymous asked". Archived from the original on April 14, 2021. Retrieved February 16, 2020 – via Tumblr.
GenoV84 (talk) 17:20, 24 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
These sources still say nothing about Israeli citizenship except for [1], which was likely copied from Wikipedia. (See Wikipedia article as of the date the jweekly.com article was published.) Dan Bloch (talk) 00:06, 25 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Danbloch: See for yourself, she is Israeli American. I don't lie.[1]

References

  1. ^ Stroud, Allen (2023). Historical Dictionary of Fantasy Literature (2nd ed.). Lanham, Maryland: Rowman & Littlefield. p. 55. ISBN 978-1-5381-6607-9. LCCN 2022059937. BARDUGO, LEIGH (1975–): Israeli American writer.

GenoV84 (talk) 08:46, 25 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Okay, that is a reliable source by Wikipedia's standards. But that brings us to my second point: Bardugo's connection with Israel isn't what makes her notable so according to Wikipedia's guidelines "Israeli-American" still doesn't belong here. Dan Bloch (talk) 15:40, 25 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
Why not? That doesn't make any sense. Her Jewish and Israeli background are equally (if not, even more) important as being raised in the U.S.; her literary work is extensively Jewish as well, as it constantly refers to her Jewish heritage. It wouldn't be WP:BALANCED nor accurate to accept one nationality while denying the other one, since both of them constitute her biography. GenoV84 (talk) 10:35, 26 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
Being Jewish and being Israeli are not at all the same thing. Judaism is a religion and a culture. Bardugo's Jewish background has had an effect on her work. There is no reason to think her Israeli citizenship has.
Wikipedia is clear on this. From my first post: Per WP:NATIONALITY, the opening paragraph should usually provide context for that which made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory where the person is currently a national or permanent resident. Bardugo lives in the U.S. and writes in English for American publishers. Dan Bloch (talk) 15:15, 26 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
Don't you see that you're making my case? Descending from Jews and being an Israeli national makes this person WP:NOTABLE as much as being an American citizen, and the cited sources refer to her as "Israeli American", not only American. GenoV84 (talk) 17:06, 26 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
Being Jewish and being Israeli are not at all the same thing. I never said that it was; check my previous replies. GenoV84 (talk) 17:10, 26 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
No. Descending from Jews and being an Israeli national do not make Bardugo notable. Writing books makes Bardugo notable. Again, in most modern-day cases, [nationality] will be the country, region, or territory where the person is currently a national or permanent resident. It's cut-and-dried. Dan Bloch (talk) 17:29, 26 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
Yes, the cited sources state that she is both Israeli and American, therefore she cannot be considered only American; she is an Israeli national, first and foremost. Very simple. GenoV84 (talk) 05:50, 27 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
It is indeed very simple. You are continuing to ignore WP:NATIONALITY. Since this is a Wikipedia article, it needs to follow Wikipedia's Manual of Style, not your personal opinion of what is important. Dan Bloch (talk) 15:00, 27 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
How could it be "my personal opinion" when the cited WP:RELIABLE sources state exactly what I said? GenoV84 (talk) 19:32, 27 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
It's your personal opinion that Bardugo should be described as "Israeli-American" even though Wikipedia's Manual of Style says she shouldn't. If you want to edit articles in Wikipedia, you need to follow Wikipedia's Manual of Style. Dan Bloch (talk) 19:47, 27 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
Where the specific issue is that this is not relevant context. There is no source that suggests that Bardugo's (possible) Israeli citizenship had any effect on her life or her work. Dan Bloch (talk) 01:58, 28 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
The cited sources explicitly refer to Bardugo as "Israeli-American", and I find it quite difficult to believe your claims, considering that both of her parents have Jewish descent and Bardugo's Jewish background is undeniable. GenoV84 (talk) 08:13, 29 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
Beliefs aren't grounds for putting content in Wikipedia, only sources are. And, again, there is no source that says that Bardugo's (possible) Israeli citizenship had any effect on her life or her work. Also, again, Jewish descent is not the same as being Israeli. Dan Bloch (talk) 14:55, 29 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Danbloch: See for yourself, she is Israeli American. Enough said.[1]

References

  1. ^ Stroud, Allen (2023). Historical Dictionary of Fantasy Literature (2nd ed.). Lanham, Maryland: Rowman & Littlefield. p. 55. ISBN 978-1-5381-6607-9. LCCN 2022059937. BARDUGO, LEIGH (1975–): Israeli American writer.
GenoV84 (talk) 20:21, 29 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
So you said before, and as I said before, whether Bardugo is or isn't Israeli doesn't matter, because Wikipedia has its own standard for what term to use here. As described in MOS:NATIONALITY it's the context for that which made the person notable, generally the country, region, or territory where the person is currently a national or permanent resident. Or in Bardugo's case, America. Her connection with Israel is not part of what makes her notable. There's no wiggle room here. Dan Bloch (talk) 00:54, 30 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
Perhaps, a WP:MIDDLEGROUND for the lead section would be a more accurate biographical description, such as this: Leigh Bardugo (born April 6, 1975) is an American fantasy author of Israeli descent. GenoV84 (talk) 08:42, 30 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
Much as I'd like to find a middle ground and end this discussion, Israeli descent would be misleading. She apparently spent only a short time in Israel, and sources don't say how long her parents were there or whether they were Israeli citizens.
Why is this a big deal? It says she was born in Jerusalem in the very next paragraph. Dan Bloch (talk) 16:19, 1 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Well, I have already explained in my previous replies why it matters. GenoV84 (talk) 14:44, 3 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
"Israeli-American" doesn't mean the same thing in Wikipedia as it does to you. In Wikipedia, it's used only to describe people who are notable in both countries, for example Miriam Adelson. Dan Bloch (talk) 17:44, 3 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Perhaps, but her Jewish descent cannot be denied in either case, and presenting Bardugo as "Jewish American" wouldn't be misleading. On the contrary, it is extremely notable and relevant for her biography. GenoV84 (talk) 19:16, 3 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Her Jewish descent isn't extremely notable. It's a little bit notable, which is why it's mentioned in the article's early life section and personal life section.

But also this is a new topic and this is already a very long discussion. Please start a new discussion if you want to talk about this. Dan Bloch (talk) 04:34, 4 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

It is, indeed. Check the cited references. GenoV84 (talk) 07:05, 4 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
I have. Dan Bloch (talk) 15:15, 4 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Danbloch: You said that Beliefs aren't grounds for putting content in Wikipedia, only sources are. Several sources here clearly demonstrate that Bardugo's Jewish descent and Israeli citizenship had a major effect on her life and her literary work, to the point where she is referred to as being "Israeli American", not only American;[1][2] if we have to follow WP guidelines, her biographical background cannot be ignored or diminished by any means, and that applies to her dual citizenship as well. GenoV84 (talk) 20:51, 4 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

References

  1. ^ Stroud, Allen (2023). Historical Dictionary of Fantasy Literature (2nd ed.). Lanham, Maryland: Rowman & Littlefield. p. 55. ISBN 978-1-5381-6607-9. LCCN 2022059937. BARDUGO, LEIGH (1975–): Israeli American writer.
  2. ^ Mirsky, Maya (11 May 2021). "'Shadow and Bone' is Jewish; Rogen is done with Franco; Ethiopian Jew is going to Eurovision; etc". J. The Jewish News of Northern California. San Francisco. Archived from the original on 9 June 2023. Retrieved 14 May 2024.
None of the sources say that Bardugo's Israeli citizenship had any effect at all on her life or her literary work. Please provide an example if you have one. And there is nothing in Wikipedia's guidelines that says that dual citizenship, or indeed, citizenship at all, should be included in the lead sentence, indeed, WP:NATIONALITY says the opposite. Dan Bloch (talk) 15:31, 5 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
And note that Israeli citizenship is already mentioned in the infobox. Dan Bloch (talk) 15:59, 5 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
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