Talk:Lengvenis

Untitled

Hmm, Polish Wikipedia says: Na skutek zdrady Witolda w 1392, musiał uchodzić z Nowogrodu przed Moskwą. W ramach rekompensaty dostał od Jagiełły księstwo mścisławskie - "As a result of betrayal by Vitold in 1392, (Lengvenis) had to flee Novogrod from Musvovy's forces. As a recompensation he received from Jagiello the Duchy of Mscislaw".

This article says "After Lengvenis lost this title in 1392, Vytautas the Great appointed him to Mstislavl.". Even if the part about Vitold's betrayal is inaccurate, I don't think Vitold/Vytautas had the power or authority to appoint anyone in 1392. So he most likely received Mstislavl from Jagiello. Volunteer Marek  07:45, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

This is quite likely, however there are no sources confirming this in Polish article (btw Russian wikipedia also says so, and also without citing a concrete source). If you can find any, let's change it here as well.

Myself, I don't understand how could he be nominated a regent of Novgorod. As far as I know, Novgorod chose him, like it used to choose Moscow and Tver princes before and after Lingvenis. Alæxis_¿question? 11:52, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

After 1392, Vytautas had immense power in Lithuania and Lithuanian historiography treats him as Grand Duke from that date. He did pretty much as he wished. The Union of Vilnius and Radom only put in writing what was actually happening. He replaced some of Jogaila's brothers and supporters with trusted viceroys appointed from Lithuanian nobles: Skirgaila was removed from Polotsk, Švitrigaila from Vitebsk, Kaributas from Severian Novgorod, Vladimir from Kiev, Fyodor Koriatovych from Podolia, and Fyodor Lubartovich from Volhynia. Some of them were compensated with other lands, some were not. I see no reason why Vytautas could not have appointed Lengvenis to Mstislavl. Renata (talk) 15:07, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, the key word there is "After" (1392). It's true that Vytautas, after being made Duke of Troki as result of Ostrow Agreement, assumed control over all the lands of the Grand Duchy and began acting as Grand Duke of Lithuania, though without that title. But the reason he was able to do that was more or less that this state of affairs agreed with Jagiello, at least for the time being: [1]. The removals you describe above, including the transfer of Lengvenis was most likely a result of an agreement between Vytautas and Jagiello - after Vytautas got 'bumped up' to his new position, all the other pieces on the board had to be repositioned as well.

Anyway, the first "appointment" to Novgorod was definitely made by Jagiello. I can't find a source which states specifically who appointed him to Mstislavl. Perhaps we should just say that he was appointed and leave out the who of was making the appointment, unless a source can be found.

@Alexis, I think what is meant by "nominated" is that he was "proposed and Novgorod accepted". Again, I think this was just part of broader multilateral negotiations between Jagiello, Vytautas and various cities/republics. Volunteer Marek  18:51, 5 December 2011 (UTC)