Talk:Leonard Steinberg, Baron Steinberg/Archives/2014

Dubious claim

This makes no mention of him being shot. Neither does this or this. The alleged source is not on the Independent's site, and as it is a controversial claim about a living person which seemingly only appears in one source, I have removed it. O Fenian (talk) 00:39, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

It is on the Independent's site. I quote from the interview "ALMOST 25 years ago, a terrorist hit squad tried to kill Leonard Steinberg in Belfast. They were never caught, but the Stanley Leisure executive chairman decided to leave Northern Ireland pretty fast. He's never looked back...Things went from bad to worse. "One of them shot at me through the door of my house, and although I was injured and in hospital, it wasn't serious...just a flesh wound.""

One source is good enough elsewhere unless you indicate a good reason for doubting it. G. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.150.38.178 (talk) 20:49, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Do you have a quote saying he was shot during the IRA's " anti-capitalist phase which targeted Jews and British business in particular"? It doesn't even say the IRA shot him. O Fenian (talk) 21:09, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes O Fenian I have all the quotes you require from the Irish Times of 24 February 1977.

"From Niall Kiely

A Derry businessman was shot dead and a Belfast company director received a leg wound in separate shooting incidents last night. The attacks are believed to be part a campaign against leading figures in the North’s commercial life launched late last year by the Provisional IRA.

…The second shooting was at the Antrim Road home of Mr Leonard Steinberg, a prominent member of the Jewish community in Northern Ireland who is associated with Stanley’s bookmaker chain. Mr Steinberg wet to answer a knock at his front door and as he walked down the hallway five shots were fired through the door.

Mr Steinberg was wounded in the left thigh but was not seriously hurt. Later last night, his condition in hospital was said to be comfortable.

This is the second Jewish businessman [the previous target was Abraham Herbert on 12 February 1977] to come under attack since the series of assassination attempts began.

…The Provisional IRA quickly admitted responsibility for the attacks and referred to the targets as business elements who formed part of the base “of the British war machine”. One of the homes attacked on that occasion belonged to a Jewish businessman who like Mr Steinberg, was active in his religious community as well as in the commercial world."

You can now check out some of the holocaust sites and seek more evidence of the numbers of Jews killed in Nazi Germany. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.95.80 (talk) 19:34, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

I still don't see any quotes that say the IRA targeted Jews in particular. I assume you have now admitted to lying about what the previous reference (Sunday Independent) says? Are you sure the date of 24 February 1977 is correct? O Fenian (talk) 22:13, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

O Fenian - why are you accusing me of lying about the Sunday Independent reference? You were the one who said it was not on the Independent's site and I provided the details to prove it existed, and I was right. Now you doubt the date of the Irish Times news article of Thursday 24 February 1977 about the shooting of Leonard Steinberg. It too is correct.

You seem to set impossibly high standards for proof of IRA killings. Perhaps all the businessmen committed suicide? But then why did the IRA state it was killing them as part of "the base of the British war machine"? Jews who were wholesalers, bookmakers and jewellers seem to be especially regarded as part of that base. I wonder why? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.160.182 (talk) 13:36, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

You claimed the Sunday Independent referenced him being shot by the IRA during their "anti-capitalist phase which targeted Jews and British business in particular", when it does not even say the IRA shot him. That would seem to prove my assertion correct.

I did not doubt the date, I asked if it was correct. The article claims a man was shot dead in Derry the previous night as part of the IRA's campaign against businessmen. This is not backed up by facts. CAIN (Sutton) has the man shot dead in Derry on 23 February as a UDR member, and CAIN (Chronology) states that killings of businessmen occurred on 2 February, 2 March and 14 March. Therefore it was quite reasonable for me to ask whether the date you had provided was correct, you will agree? O Fenian (talk) 13:56, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

The Londonderry murder on 23 February 1977 of a UDR man and local businessman was seen in the Dublin newspaper, the Irish Times, as being part of the anti-business campaign of the IRA. That a Protestant was also eliminated may have been more important to the IRA commander in the city but who knows without seeing into his mind. The Jews who were shot or bombed were not in the UDR, neither were they Protestants therefore it is reasonable to assume (as the Irish Times did in 1977) that the murder attempts on them were part of the IRA's anti-capitalist campaign (previously run in 1972) and it should be said not censored. That Jews figured disproportionately, it is not unreasonable to assume, was because they were traditionally associated with finance and capital. Such an analysis is permitted in dealing with the Nazis so why not the IRA, or are their motives singular and pure and thus to be stripped down to the barest of inexplicable facts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.151.64.251 (talk) 09:18, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Your own analysis and opinions have no place in this article. O Fenian (talk) 20:50, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Your attack on my analysis is itself a form of analysis or political expression as you are determined not to allow the possibility of anti-semitism being suggested as the reason for attacks on Jews in Belfast. Indeed you won't even allow mention of the IRA's self-admitted and reported anti-capitalist campaigns to be included. Will you or must that be written out of history?

I suggest you go to other Wikipedia sites for a change and instance one similar I picked at random which has the following set of unreferenced/analytic statements in a few sentences: "The Bucharest pogrom was not a side effect of the rebellion, but a parallel event, purposefully organized to give legitimacy to the rebellion, and to equate the Legionnaires' opponents with Jew sympathizers. Many parties took part in the riots against the Jews: police officers loyal to the Legionnaires, various Legionnaire organizations, the workers' union, student union, high-school students, Gypsies, and criminals."

Work for O Fenian there.

11 January 200981.156.38.54 (talk) 22:01, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

If you wish your own analysis to be in Wikipedia, then I suggest you get it published in a reliable source. Please note that talk pages are for discussing improvements to the article, not your own rantings which would be more suited to a blog. O Fenian (talk) 22:06, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

I see there is no source specifically attributing the IRA's quote to the shooting of Steinberg. Please refrain from adding quotes out of context. O Fenian (talk) 20:06, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

What do you want, a confessed blow by blow account of every murder and shooting the IRA did? That's not what they do. We have to accept that else no history can ever be written. Perhaps you believe they were done by Martians?

Get real. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.161.69 (talk) 23:56, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

In that case we do not attribute quotes about other events to his death. Simple. O Fenian (talk) 00:14, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

The Irish Times article of 3 March 1977 gives an analysis of each of the attacks from the summer of 1976 when the IRA's anti-business campaign started when it explains why it is attacking such people. It lists those killed (six in all) highlights the significant Jewish involvement and that some victims had unionist and security force connections. Leonard Steinberg (who did not die) is mentioned in the former category. The most signifcant person murdered was of course Jeffrey Agate the English managing director of Du Pont's in Derry. CAIN does not distinguish a category of businessman so some of the dead are simply civilian Protestants etc. Respectable and reliable newspaper reports (such as the Irish Times) are sufficient reference. 86.143.63.147 (talk) 11:42, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Your source is comical. The Northern Ireland editor of the Irish Times, one Ed Moloney, says that Agate was the first businessmen shot dead in the IRA's brief campaign. He states James Nicholson was the second victim, who was killed on 14 March. Even including Donald Robinson who was killed on 2 March who Moloney has overlooked, six people had not been killed by 3 March 1977. This is echoed by John Bowyer Bell, who agrees Agate was the first businessmen shot dead in February 1977. The statement you are trying to include does not specifically apply to Steinberg, and unless there is a statement specifically applying to Steinberg it should not be included. O Fenian (talk) 18:09, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

The Irish Times news article of 3 March 1997 is not comical, rather deadly serious, as it lists the six dead businessmen, the several woundings and details of homes destroyed in the campaign against the "rich" whom the IRA then regarded as legitimate targets. It has not been challenged so far as I am aware. The newspaper is Dublin-based and nationalist.

Ed Moloney was not I think working as a journalist at the time, nor northern editor of the paper. Anyway what he says, O Fenian, you have not referenced while it sounds like a generalised view not intending to be exhaustive. The six murdered businessmen detailed in the Irish Times article were Mr C. O. Eaton, Mr Joseph Glover, Mr Robert Mitchell, Mr Jeffrey Agate, Mr Peter Hill, and Mr Donald Robinson. Mr Steinberg is listed as someone wounded. The two Jewish businessmen attacked are noted as such. Mr Nicholson's murder, as you indicate, was later. He and Mr Agate were much more prominent than the others (and English). This was all common knowledge at the time and discussed.

If you insist on an IRA statement of responsibility for every one of their attacks then you will have to strip out 100s of Wikipedia references, not to mention droves involving other agencies throughout the world. The IRA was proud of its actions and justified them then so why crib 30 years later? Wikipedia is not a criminal court requiring extreme levels of proof. 86.143.63.147 (talk) 10:14, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

It is comical, when it is contradicted by pretty much every academic who has written about that part of the IRA's campaign, who would have had access to that particular newspaper report. The first death was Agate. O Fenian (talk) 15:05, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

O Fenian: Name the numerous academics you say who go into the matter and contradict all this? You know and say without any doubt that Agate's was "the first death"? What nonsense. You have become God almighty. 86.147.53.36 (talk) 17:01, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

I already listed some of them, please read the discussion. All the sources except your woeful journalist agree Agate's was the first death. O Fenian (talk) 17:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

O Fenian: That 'woeful journalist', Niall Kiely, was the Irish Times's northern editor whose 24 Feb. 1977 article went unchallenged. The Irish Times is generally accepted (and all over Wikipedia) as a reputable paper of record. Why would it get it so wrong in this instance when the IRA had announced they were conducting an anti-business campaign? Your deletions are a false fussiness to avoid any sensible discussion of IRA killings. You are quite happy to accept the word of one of Kiely's successors (Ed Moloney) which as pointed out above was a statement not to be interpreted as absolute so why not this 'woeful' journalist. The IRA's anti-business campaign, which descended locally in Belfast into anti-semitism, came and went. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.156.244.32 (talk) 15:03, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Please learn the difference between the reliability of an opinion piece versus the reliability of an academic work, and what each can be used for. And you have still provided no reliable source for the motive for Steinberg's shooting. There is only an opinion piece which is contradicted by numerous academic works, and therefore is not a reliable source for an article about a living person or a controversial claim. O Fenian (talk) 15:51, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

The explain why you (and Big Dunc) are happy to accept quotations from other newspapers like the Sun in the same article? 81.156.131.121 (talk) 09:26, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Is The Sun sourcing an opinion contradicted by reliable sources? O Fenian (talk) 09:40, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Where are the contradictions, O Fenian, that make the Irish Times reference inapplicable? The Sun reference seems no longer available but as I recall it is a bald statement or assertion without any back up evidence. 81.155.39.245 (talk) 10:27, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

The opinion piece by your journalist is contradicted by numerous academic works, in fact virtually every academic work that has covered that IRA activity. Your repeated system gaming is becoming increasingly disruptive, I suggest you stop adding disputed content on any page until there is consensus for its inclusion. O Fenian (talk) 10:29, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Why would this phrasing you have reverted need consensus when you provide no contradictory reference from the "numerous academic works" you talk about? The journalist wrote in the Irish Times of 24 February 1977 about the shootings: "A Derry businessman was shot dead and a Belfast company director received a leg wound in separate shooting incidents last night. The attacks are believed to be part a campaign against leading figures in the North’s commercial life launched late last year by the Provisional IRA. The second shooting was at the Antrim Road home of Mr Leonard Steinberg, a prominent member of the Jewish community in Northern Ireland who is associated with Stanley’s bookmaker chain." --Fynire (talk) 17:29, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

They cannot even get the date right, the campaign began just weeks before in February 1977. If the IRA issued a statement of responsibility detailing why he was shot, please provide a source that says so. The Irish Times coverage of these events is full of errors. O Fenian (talk) 18:14, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

What date and what campaign are you talking about O fenian? You can't argue with the accuracy of reputable sources as that is OR. You should know, you accuse others of that often enough. And by the way. the IRA were not always thinking in terms of Wikipedia when they shot people. As you know, thousands were murdered without an explanatory press statement. --Fynire (talk) 22:01, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Please cease making false accusations. Your source is ill-informed speculation by a journalist, and on this occasion is not a reliable source due to almost everything he says being contradicted by academic works that have written about this part of the IRA's campaign. Your edit warring has now degenerated to the point where you also introduce violations of the manual of style and poor grammar into articles, this is not helpful. O Fenian (talk) 21:17, 23 November 2009 (UTC)