Talk:Leshnicë e Poshtme

This is a Greek village within the borders of Albania. It's part of the Greek state of Northern Epirus

The location is within the borders of Albania, not Greece

Ok, I'm really getting fed-up with very biased articles in Wikipedia. Let's take this article on the village of Leshnica. The village is situated in the Republic of Albania. Now, the fact that it is close to the Greek border, does not mean the village belongs to Greece. The more absurd "fact" is the last sentence - that the village belongs to Northern Epirus, an imaginary region created by Greek propaganda. I will be editing the article accordingly. In addition, I will put it on probation on the TaskForce Albania list.--_Arbër ^{T •  ?} 17:03, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Calm down. There is no harm in saying the village is 1 km away from the Greek border. It is a simple geographical fact. I don't see how you can possibly think this implies the village is in Greece, should be in Greece, or any such thing. I don't see anything in the article that even remotely implies such a thing. As for the term Northern Epirus, well, it merely refers to the northern part of the region of Epirus and is a legitimate geographical term. Anyway, the article seems fine to me the way it is now. --Tsourkpk (talk) 01:44, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

There is, however, harm in incorrectly citing a map to push a POV (falsifying sources). Also I have moved the page to the Albanian name, as it is in Albania and there is no established English usage. BalkanFever 02:17, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

That's fine, but just so you know, I'm not the one who did that. Should have checked though. --Tsourkpk (talk) 02:44, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say it was you. It was Knonis. BalkanFever 02:50, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

That ridiculous argument about "the Albanian State" and "official sources". NPOV means that we don't give a damn about the Albanian state and its official sources. This is Wikipedia, not an Albanian government website. If a reference that satisifies WP:RS mentions a village as inhabited by Greeks, it stays. Simple as that. --Tsourkpk (talk) 15:31, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

The village of course belongs to the Albanian state but the people living there are Greeks (see also references provided)--Knonis

This is, naturally, disputable, because the Albanian state does not have official sources and documents proving that the population in Leshnica is Greek. But the Albanian State does have documents proving that the Chams living in the so-called Greek region of Chameria are Albanians :-) --_Arbër ^{T •  ?} 09:28, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't care about Chams/Nazi collaborators. I was born in tha village I was always speaking Greek I went to the Greek school on the village and yes Albania recognizes a Greek minority (if you like it or not) (see the reference which explicitly mentions the name of the village)--Knonis —Preceding unsigned comment added by Knonis (talk • contribs) 09:37, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

The point is not whether I like it or not, but whether it adheres to the NPOV that is supposed to govern Wikipedia!--_Arbër ^{T •  ?} 09:46, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

The references provided are adequate.I just said before.The village belongs to the officialy recognized Greek minority in Albanian territory even if you don't like it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Knonis (talk • contribs) 09:53, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

That ridiculous argument about "the Albanian State" and "official sources". NPOV means that we don't give a damn about the Albanian state and its official sources. This is Wikipedia, not an Albanian government website. If a reference that satisifies WP:RS mentions a village as inhabited by Greeks, it stays. Simple as that. --Tsourkpk (talk) 15:31, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, the problem until earlier this day, when everybody was edit-warring over it, was just that no such source had been brought forward, and people were persistently trying to sneak a false source in. Now that there is one, there is of course no problem. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:44, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

As for the term "Northern Epirus", it is of course ideologically burdened as an irridentist term of exactly the same kind as "Aegean Macedonia" and the like. No reason to use it here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:48, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

The term Northern Epirus refers to the northern part of Epirus.Of course it is a geographical term and overlaps with the region where the recognized Greek minority of Albania lives.The problem with Albanians is that the dont like the the presence of Greeks there (you can by your own realize that) so they dont like the term Northern Epirus.It is not a territolial claim by Greece.Epirus is just a region inhabitad by Greeks separated between two states.Knonis —Preceding comment was added at 16:59, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

And Macedonia is a region inhabited by (ethnic) Macedonians shared by three states, Aegean Macedonia the area part of Greece. The problem with Greeks is they don't like the presence of Macedonians there, so they don't like the term Aegean Macedonia. See? BalkanFever 08:00, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Page move

Ok, the page has moved to include the Greek name as well based on the argument that "Albania has ratified and agreed to the Convention on Minorities." Yes, Albania may have ratified the agreement, but there is no explicit statement in the agreement that allows for such a usage of the names of geographical places in Albania. It would be the same as moving the Ioannina page to a page name that includes all the representative names of Ioannina: Ioannina / Janina / Etc./ Etc/, which is, indeed, absurd. Anyway, my discussion with childish minds stops here.--_Arbër ^{T •  ?} 19:13, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I didn't move the page of Tirana or Shkodra nor these places can be replaced by Greek names.The Convention that Albania signed says clearly "local names, street names and other topographical indications" in the region of national minorities.If you live in Albania come and visit the village and you will see the road signs writing "ΚΑΤΩ ΛΕΣΙΝΙΤΣΑ" although some of them are destroyed by vandals because are in the Greek language. I said it before, even if you don't like it there are Greek people living here recognized by Albanian state, so be rational and neutral and don't have demands for example for Kosovo if you cannot respect the minorities in your country (this is childish mind).Also my discussion stops here.Knonis (talk) 19:43, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy doesn't depend on Albanian minority laws. Our policy is WP:NAME. We use the single most common name used in English, full stop. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:59, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

And when there is no widespread English usage, we use the name in the language of the state that the village is in. See the reason for my original move. BalkanFever 07:17, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Encyclopedic Tone is a Must

Well, let me quote the following:

The Greek name of the village, Kato Lesinitsa (meaning Lower Lesinitsa), has official status and is used (in Greek script) also in places intended for the public (e.g. road signs,etc.) according to the Article 11, paragraph 3[3] of the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities, which has been signed and ratified by Albania on 1st of January, 2000[4].

Is the article about a geographical place on the planet, or is it about a debate related to the ethnic origins of the population of that place? It seems to me that some external reader would think that there is an ongoing discussion between two ethnic groups in some place on earth, rather than the geography of the article. I think it should be modified in such an encyclopedic tone so that it covers only the geographical position and properties of the village. That whether it is Greek or not, trust me, no Japanese reader of Wikipedia would care.--_Arbër ^{T •  ?} 06:41, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't put something of my mind.The references tell this.A place is not just a geographical place.The people living in it and the name that is used are the main part of a place.And I ask you why you don't describe Kosovo or "Chameria" with the same "geographical sense"?Knonis (talk) 07:02, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

That's not what I actually meant. In fact, selective perception while selecting facts is an issue to human beings. The content must be mainly about the village, not about political issues such as minorities.--_Arbër ^{T •  ?} 07:10, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

The name in the Greek form is used officially, and trust me, to the inhabitants of the village the Albanian name means nothing.It is not a political issue it is a reality.If I put it without the reference to the Convention you will demand to delete because it does not have a reference.... :) Knonis (talk) 07:19, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

References are not there for you to use them to prevent me from complaining and striving for deletion. References are used for the sake of factual accuracy, rather than for political reasons. Now, regarding your assertion that people there don't care, that's not because they are Greeks, but because they a set of ignorant people who have been left out somehow and for some political sort of fault. You need to grow, all in all.--_Arbër ^{T •  ?} 07:38, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Man calm down.Yesterday you told that Albanian state does not recognize Greeks in that village not even a Greek minority!!! I provided references that prove that.You have to be rational.Once again here is not an Albanian goverment or your personal webpage, if there is a reference that proves something it stays!Let me know better if the people are Greeks or Albanians.Knonis (talk) 07:47, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

People, stop it. First of all, Knonis, you are again revert-warring. You were blocked for 3RR yesterday and let off the hook only on an understanding that you'd start behaving cooperatively. You are now still (or again) in breach of 3RR, and this time you will probably find less leniency. So, will you back off now, or do I have to report you again?

As for the matter, I repeat what I said in my edit summary. The information about the minority status of Greek is not a notable piece of information about this village. It's only a notable piece of information used by a Wikipedian in an internal editorial discussion. That doesn't mean it should appear in the article. It's also of course a notable piece of information about the Greek minority as a whole, and it should go into some article dealing with that. It would be ridiculous if we were going to repeat that statement in every article on every single tiny village in that region. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:36, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes but the Greek name is also used which is also in the road signs.Maybe we can rephrase and shorten it and not mention the whole thing for the articles of the Convention but the reference should stay otherwise it will be deleted because not having references.Knonis (talk) 08:46, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Of course the Greek name is used. Has anybody ever claimed it wasn't? Has anybody ever tried to remove it from the article? The whole issue arose only because you originally wanted only the Greek name. Now, that would indeed be unjust and nonsensical. Yes, we do list such alternative names in the lead, after the main name. By the way, please don't frame this discussion in terms of what we need to do to satisfy the Greek inhabitants. Your fellow inhabitants of Lesinitsa already know what their place is called. They don't need to look up Wikipedia to learn about it. Therefore, we are not writing this article for them. We write it for our international readers. The feelings and preferences of the locals are completely irrelevant here. The Greek name is an interesting piece of information and should, as a matter of course, be included in the lead, after the official name (which is the one English-speaking readers are most likely to encounter in English-speaking reference works such as maps and geographical databases, which is the only reason why we give relative preference to it.) Not more and not less. What's all this fuss about? Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:59, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

It is not only for the inhabitants.Of course we know how the village is called.It is the point that the Greek name is officially recognized and used.And yes there is also in the road signs!!!.And yes by inhabitants it is only used the name Kato Lesinitsa. I didn want only the Greek name.In the original post I had also the Albanian name.Ok you were right, first the Albanian name because is in the Albanian state but some other people claim that there are not even Greeks there!!!Look to the comments of ArberBorici.Knonis (talk) 09:30, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Nobody has proposed removing the name, so there is no issue, it seems. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:40, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, I am not a native English speaker, can you tell me how we can state that this name is also official? I think that because is just in the brackets means nothing.Many places have alternative names in the brackets but there are not official.This here is different you know it.Ok I need your help to state that.Knonis (talk) 09:58, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Why would we state such a thing here? The official status is a fact about Albania, not a fact about this village. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:19, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes it is about Albania and Albania itself recognizes the Greek name of the village. I cannot understand you why are so negative??Knonis (talk) 11:12, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

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