Talk:Leuchtenbergia

Can it be right that this genus was named after Eugène, first Prince von Leuchtenberg? He died in 1824, but the genus was not erected by Hooker until 1848. It seems more likely that Hooker had in mind his son Maximilian, who was alive at the time.
It is a curious fact that Maximilian's granddaughter Daria married Lev Mikhailovich Kotschoubey (Кочубей), the grandson of Viktor Pavlovich Kotschoubey, after whom Ariocarpus kotschoubeyanus is named.
Лудольф (talk) 19:46, 22 August 2008 (UTC)Лудольф

Further research shows I was right. I have modified the page accordingly.Лудольф (talk) 13:59, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Which further research, Лудольф?

The fact, that Eugène de Beauharnais ("Prince" - better "duke" - of Leuchtenberg) died before the plant was named, is no reason. If you give a plant or a an animal a name in classification, the person, who is honored, must not be alive. If the person is not born - that would be a reason ... ;-)

Which further research shows, that Leuchtenbergia is named after Maximilian J. A. N. Leuchtenberg (1817 - 1852) and not after Eugène de Beauharnais, "Prince" (duke) of Leuchtenberg?

In the Web and in the literature you can find both versions. Only to find one or several references then for one version is not enough.

Who knows the right eponym from fundamental research? For example in "William Jackson Hooker: Leuchtenbergia principis, The Botanical Magazine: 4393, 1848"? Who has the chance to have a look in this first description of HOOKER? And the one who named this cactus as Leuchtenbergia was not Sir William Jackson Hooker (he made the original description of Leuchtenbergia principis), but Ernst Ludwig von Fischer (1782-1854), director of the botanical garden St. Petersburg, he named the Leuchtenbergia before the description of Hooker. Who has access to what he wrote then?

And after whom the Leuchtenbergia is named from Ernst Ludwig von Fischer? After Eugène de Beauharnais or after his son Maximilian? Who can mention here the right source?

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer_Diskussion:Schratmaki

Some data of this case in german language: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diskussion:Leuchtenbergia_principis —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.2.239.204 (talk) 19:40, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, you're quite right, I have drawn rather more definite conclusions from the evidence than it will bear. In particular I assumed that the name was Hooker's. If I had done what I ought to have done (and since have), and looked at Hooker's original description in Curt. Bot. Mag. 74 (1848), 4394, I would have read what he says: "I willingly adopt a name by which this plant is said to be known upon the Continent, although I have failed to find the place where any such name is recorded." You seem to have had more success than Hooker, though if Karl Schumann is right, it would appear that F.E.L. (alias Fedor Bogdanovič) von Fischer named the plant but did not describe it, and moreover it isn't recorded in any of the Petersburg Indices Seminum from the 1840s. In such a case it would appear that he probably did not leave any record of which Leuchtenberg he had in mind. This in turn means that we shall never have a definitive answer to the question. However, I still think that the balance of probability is strongly in favour of Maximilian, firstly because of his botanical interests (I have not found any suggestion that they were shared by his father), and secondly because of the Petersburg connexion. Maximilian married the Tsar's daughter, Grand Princess Marija Nikolaevna, on 2nd July 1839, which would be a strong motivation for the Director of the Imperial Botanical Garden to name a plant after him shortly afterwards; again, no particular reason to name it after the first Duke. This is all circumstantial, I admit, but nevertheless convincing.

Thank you also for pointing out that M. was Herzog, rather than Fürst, von Leuchtenberg (though he was Fürst von Eichstädt too): I shall correct this in the article. Лудольф (talk) 10:55, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Hello Лудольф, please excuse my bad English, I hope I can phrase somewhat comprehendible.

At first, thank you for your answer. It is interesting for me what you found in Hookers original description in Curt. Bot. Mag. 74 (1848), 4394,(BTW: How can I read this, is it published in the web?).

There are 4.900 "Google-hits" for "Leuchtenbergia Maximilian", and about 4.630 for "Leuchtenbergia Eugene". I agree to you that it is more presumably, that Ernst Ludwig von Fischer (1782-1854) wanted to dignify Maximilian Eugen Joseph (1817-1852), if we have no other original records form Hooker or Fischer.

BTW: The first name of F.E.L. von Fischer was Fedor Bogdanovič? Why did he change his name? Which nationality did he have before?

An other question: In the german Wikipedia you can presently read, that Leuchtenbergia principis looks like dry grass (Mimese). I don't believe this, more Leuchtenbergia looks like an agave. Do you know the accompaniing vegetation of the Leuchtenbergia in situ? I found published: Agave lechuguilla and a rosette-forming yucca. Do you know which species of yucca? Is it really Mimese? I suppose that it is a confusion with Toumeya papyracantha, ("Gramma Grass Cactus"), but I am not convinced, that it is Mimese there with Gramma Grass, more the Gramma Grass nearby the cactus is protected by the cactus ... ;-)

Very nice to can discuss with you, respects, 23:05, 30 January 2009 (UTC) (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer_Diskussion:Schratmaki)

Fischer was German (see the brief biography in Brockhaus and Efron), but like many foreigners working in Russia in the nineteenth century, he adopted a Russian name and patronymic, which would have had the advantage of allowing Russian speakers to address him. If he became Orthodox he would have acquired a new baptismal name and taken his patronymic from his godfather (like the Empress Catherine), but I think it much more likely, given the number of Germans with the same name and patronymic listed on the page just cited, that they were artificial. Fedor probably because it begins with the same letter as Friedrich, but Bogdanovič is interesting. Fedor (Фёдор) is of course the Greek name Θεόδωρος, but so is Bogdan, by translation (something like Gottschenk), so Fedor Bogdanovič is much the same as Fedor Fedorovič.

As for "Mimese", I wondered about that in the German article as well. I've just spent two minutes looking at my plant of Leuchtenbergia, and I can't think of anything it resembles. A single spine does look like a single blade of dry grass, but that's as far as it goes. I suspect that it is a case of camouflage rather than mimicry: I can't see that there's any advantage to a Leuchtenbergia in looking like a Yucca (or a Yucca in looking like a Leuchtenbergia), but if they're both adapted to blend into the background, then it's not surprising if they look similar. I'm afraid I don't know any more about the associated vegetation.

Лудольф (talk) 11:02, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Very interesting what you wrote about Fischer, many thanks for that.

Leuchtenbergia also looks like an "Agave" (one english name is "agave cactus"). I meanwhile found the informations, that Agave lechuguilla is a common accompaniing/associating plant for example in the Chihuahua-desert, and I found one hint in literature, that Leuchtenbergia grows very often within some Agave lechuguilla, so that it is nearly hidden by them. You are very interested in that and the reference is in English, so I post here the link to this reference: http://books.google.de/books?id=vYXQHL2IsZ4C&pg=PA9&lpg=PA9&dq=Edward+F.+Anderson,+Wilhelm+Barthlott,+Roger+Brown:+The+Cactus+Family&source=bl&ots=ujhm3TokMz&sig=MXU9EY1i2hwk-2fgMnjHOJqRlLw&hl=de&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA395,M1

Agave lechuguilla (english name: shin-daggers") has good mechanical protection (see only the english name ...) and is poisonous for grassing cattle. So "it would make sense" for Leuchtenbergia to look like Agave lechuguilla (Phytomimese). In the german article I changed the former sentences (Mimese, dry grass) into this meaning--(http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer_Diskussion:Schratmaki)

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