Talk:Levantine Arabic/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Cerebellum (talk · contribs) 14:05, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Hello, I'll be reviewing this article! I'm not sure if I can review a 250k article in 7 days but I'll do my best! --Cerebellum (talk) 14:05, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for reviewing the article! Take your time, no worries :) A455bcd9 (talk) 14:28, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Ok, here you go! Wonderful article, I had no idea that some villages still speak Aramaic, or that there are gender and religious differences in the way people speak. I have some comments below, I'll place the article on hold for seven days so you can respond. --Cerebellum (talk) 16:59, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! I'll look at your comments and edit the article accordingly this weekend probably. [there's more than gender and religions: if you move from one neighborhood of Beirut to another, the conjugation may change!] A455bcd9 (talk) 17:05, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Fascinating! I would love to see Beirut. --Cerebellum (talk) 17:33, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

@A455bcd9: Thank you for the fast responses and willingness to track down all those page numbers! Everything looks great now, I'm happy to pass as GA :) Although I just saw an IP edit disputing the definition of Greater Syria, I'm sure that sort of controversy will go on forever! --Cerebellum (talk) 00:26, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Amazing! Thanks a lot for your review :) Next step: Feature article? 😅 A455bcd9 (talk) 10:12, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

I think it has a good shot at FA :) --Cerebellum (talk) 20:29, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Nice! FYI: I've just listed the article for peer review to get more comments before FAC. A455bcd9 (talk) 14:42, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Criteria

• Prose: Mostly good, comments below.
• Verifiable: Excellent! Just missing some page numbers.
• Coverage: Good but I think there is too much detail on the grammar.
• Neutral: Yes.
• Stable: Talk page shows past controversies were resolved successfully.
• Illustrated: Yes.

Overall

• Length: I think the Grammar section is too long. The readable prose for the whole article is exactly 60k (9681 words) which is ok per WP:LENGTH. However, I had trouble editing the article, on a machine with 5GB of RAM using Chrome. I had to edit section by section. Is it just me? I think you need to use summary style with the grammar section, either starting a new article Levantine Arabic grammar or using Arabic grammar as the main article.

I don't know if the article is too long but a Levantine Arabic grammar article could definitely be created. I just wonder what should stay in the general Levantine Arabic article if such an article was created. I suggest to: copy/paste all the content of the current "Grammar" section to a new Levantine Arabic grammar. Keep the current Grammar but remove all tables (maybe with the exception of "Conjugation of كتب, 'to write' (sound form I verb)" as the root system is essential in Arabic) and some sentences explaining these tables. What do you think? A455bcd9 (talk) 11:25, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

I think that makes sense (keeping text and removing tables) but it's up to you, the readable prose size is within the guideline so if you think the length is ok you don't need to make any changes. --Cerebellum (talk) 12:42, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

If I have time I'll try to do it, because the grammar article could be expended (for instance with comparisons with other colloquial varieties, with MSA, with more examples, etc.). A455bcd9 (talk) 15:57, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

 Done => Levantine Arabic grammar A455bcd9 (talk) 20:48, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

I think Levantine_Arabic#Verbal_nouns also better belongs in the new grammar subarticle, rather than here under the heading "Vocabulary". –Austronesier (talk) 18:36, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

 Done A455bcd9 (talk) 20:45, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

• Citation style: When referencing academics in the text you use just their last name, e.g. Brustad & Zuniga, According to Al-Jallad. I couldn't find any guidelines on this, personally I prefer and instead of an ampersand, so Brustad and Zuniga. I also prefer using full names and saying who they are, so Linguists Kristen Brustad and Emilie Zuniga. However, the first names are available in the footnotes, and its probably obvious that anyone you cite is some kind of scholar, so maybe it's not necessary. What do you think?

 Done A455bcd9 (talk)

• Referencing: Some of the references don't have page numbers, I think it would be helpful to have them for #s 4,46, 51-52, 60, 75, etc. If it's an offline book, I think it would be difficult for a reader to find the info without the page number.

On this one, I don't expect you to have access to all 300 resources cited, if you don't have the physical book that's fine. --Cerebellum (talk) 12:42, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes this one will take a bit of time, but it's doable :) A455bcd9 (talk) 15:57, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

I added several page numbers and/or chapter names. When I could not find the page number I sometimes removed the source if there was an equivalent source available (with the page number). However, I couldn't get access to "Al-Jallad, Ahmad (2012). Ancient Levantine Arabic: A Reconstruction Based on the Earliest Sources and the Modern Dialects. ProQuest LLC. ISBN 978-1-267-44507-0" Besides that one, I think all references from books have page numbers or chapter names now. For articles I didn't add page numbers as they're usually short. A455bcd9 (talk) 22:39, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Lead

• Citations: Per WP:LEADCITE citations are not required in the lead, you can remove them if you want.

I prefer to keep them if that's okay. A455bcd9 (talk) 11:08, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

• Prose: However, with the emergence of social media, attitudes toward Levantine have improved and the amount of written Levantine has significantly increased. This doesn't follow from the previous sentence, I think you need a sentence saying that attitudes towards it have traditionally been negative

The previous sentence links to slang: "an informal register, common in spoken conversation but avoided in formal writing.". That's why I thought the two sentences were connected to each other (informal => "attitudes have improved" and "avoided in formal writing" => amount of written Levantine has increased). Do you think it's still worth adding that attitudes towards it have traditionally been negative? A455bcd9 (talk) 11:06, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Ok I see the connection now! --Cerebellum (talk) 12:42, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

 Done A455bcd9 (talk)

Naming

• Captions: Per WP:CAP, captions should not end with periods, and should have alt text. I don't think you need spaces around a slash, it should be Map of Greater Syria/the Levant.

 Done A455bcd9 (talk) 10:44, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

• Notes: Also spelled Ammiya, Amiyya, Ammiyya, 'Ammiyya, 'Ammiya, Amiyah, Ammiyah, Amiyyah, Ammiyyah. This is not necessary, many Arabic words have lots of different possible transliterations. No need to include them all for every word.

 Done A455bcd9 (talk) 10:49, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

• Prose: Syrian (شامي‎, Shami) Saying that شامي means Syrian is problematic, since شامي‎ can also mean the Levantine dialect as a whole. I think سورية is a better translation of Syrian. I don't have a source but that's what Varieties of Arabic#Levantine Group uses.

As far as I know, wikt:شامي‎, Shami can mean "Damascene", "Syrian", or "Greater Syrian"/"Levantine", because Damascus is colloquially known in Syria as aš-Šām (الشَّام) and the other name of Syria/Greater Syria is "al-Sham". Following the Arabic naming, Cowell starts the introduction of its Reference Grammar of Syrian Arabic with: "The language described in this book is Arabic as it is used in everyday conversation by educated city-dwelling Syrians, and most particularly by natives of Damascus. The spoken Arabic of Damascus is much like that of other cities in the western parts of Syria and in Palestine and Lebanon (for instance Beirut, Jerusalem, Aleppo). From a practical standpoint all the urban dialects of the "Syrian area" or "Greater Syria"—as she shall call this region—may be considered variants of one language which we call "Syrian Arabic"." Similarly, Stowasser opens his dictionary of "Syrian Arabic" with the following line: "The term "Syrian Arabic" actually comprises quite a number of distinct dialects and subdialects spoken by the sedentary population of Greater Syria, that is, of present-day Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and the Arab population of Israel." That's why I suggest keeping "Shami" and adding a note: "In Arabic, الشَّام as-Šām, may refer to Damascus, Syria, or Greater Syria/the Levant and therefore شامي‎ Shami may refer to the Damascus dialect, Syrian Arabic, or Levantine Arabic as a whole." What do you think? A455bcd9 (talk) 11:00, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Sounds good! --Cerebellum (talk) 12:42, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

 Done A455bcd9 (talk) 15:47, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Classification

• Prose South-west: Change to Southwest.

 Done A455bcd9 (talk) 10:35, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

• Prose: Versteegh calls it: Link Kees Versteegh.

 Done A455bcd9 (talk) 10:35, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

• Prose: Early Arabic: Is this the same as Old Arabic?

I have to check again but I remember it wasn't obvious to me when I read the book. A455bcd9 (talk) 15:57, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

 Done I read the excerpt again and still could not understand what he meant so I simplified the sentence. A455bcd9 (talk) 22:51, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Geographical distribution and varieties

• Multimedia: I would replace the Wikitongues video with the interview of Maya Diab from later in the article. The speaker in the Wikitongues video has a strong American accent, that's normal for a heritage speaker but it's not a good example of the language.

 Done A455bcd9 (talk)

• Referencing Galilean Druze Arabic: A form of Druze Arabic spoken in Northern Israel,: This needs a reference, I don't see this variety mentioned in North Levantine Arabic.

 Done A455bcd9 (talk)

• Prose: (in the ‘Ajlun, Al Balqa', Al Karak, Al Mafraq, 'Amman, Irbid, Jarash, and Madaba governorates): I would remove this, seems like too much detail.

 Done A455bcd9 (talk)

• Notes: Some Alawites reject the label "Muslim". Don't need, article doesn't say they are Muslim.

 Done A455bcd9 (talk)

• Prose: the analytic genitive exponent: I have a degree in Arabic and I have no idea what this means, I think it will confuse most readers. Maybe simplify to For example, in Beirut, the exponent tēʕ.

 Done A455bcd9 (talk) 10:33, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

History

• Prose: Before the mid-sixth century, the coda of the definite article rarely exhibits assimilation to the following coronals and its onset is consistently given with an /a/ vowel. This is a confusing sentence and appears to be copied from Al-Jallad, please rephrase.

 Done I removed it altogether: not necessary + verbose. A455bcd9 (talk) 10:22, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Status and usage

• Prose: Most songs are in a’amiya...Most movies are in a’amiya. I would prefer "colloquial Arabic" or "vernacular Arabic", if you disagree that's fine but at least use Amiya, since that is the form used in the lead.

 Done A455bcd9 (talk) 10:19, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

• Names of newspapers and names of TV series should be in italics.

 Done A455bcd9 (talk) 10:21, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Grammar

• Do the sources use the Latin letters C and V to illustrate the verb patterns, e.g. C1vC2vC3? I've always seen the forms illustrated with example verbs, like at Arabic verbs.

Some sources use Latin letters, others use the Arabic characters. For instance, Brustad and Zuniga only use Latin letters in their "TABLE 16.14 VERBAL STEM PATTERNS" p. 281. A455bcd9 (talk) 10:39, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Ok, all good. --Cerebellum (talk) 12:42, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

 Done A455bcd9 (talk)

• Is the table of common conjunctions supposed to be under the "Subordination" section? Not sure it fits there, might need a separate section "Conjunctions".

 Done => Levantine Arabic grammar A455bcd9 (talk) 20:48, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Vocabulary

• For the table of Hebrew borrowings, I think it would help to mention (maybe in a footnote) that, as the source says, "Some words in Table 33 above are originally English borrowings into Hebrew that were subsequently borrowed from Hebrew into PI Arabic," e.g. course, semester.

 Done A455bcd9 (talk) 10:17, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Sample texts

• Has an "expand" tag, I don't think you need more samples so I recommend removing the tag. --Cerebellum (talk) 16:59, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

 Done A455bcd9 (talk) 10:14, 17 December 2021 (UTC)