Talk:Lhasa Apso/Archive 1

Archive 1

Tone of article

The tone in this article is not at all encyclopedic and should be revised. Lines like "Lhasa Apsos should not be taken lightly" and "Just don't expect them to listen to you every time!" do not belong in an encyclopedia article. Emtilt 01:39, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I've added "citation needed" where cites are lacking (ie, throughout the whole article) and removed the really non-NPOV unsourced parts. PLEASE ADD SOURCES if you have them, or this article is going to get a serious trimming down shortly. Alvis 05:08, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

To Mr. Fellner ... as an owner/exhibitor of Lhasa Apsos for the past 20+ years, the breed does shed its undercoat as well as some of the outer coat. This holds true for Apsos in puppy clips as well as full-coated dogs. That undercoat *will* be shed out (what do you think causes matting in the coat -- the undercoat is shed, which is caught in the coarser outer coat, causing a mat to form). For you to insist they don't shed is simply false. The vast majority of Apso breeders will concur that it is a low-shedding breed ... not hypoallergenic. If I'm not mistaken, editing is allowed and there is a statement to that effect regarding submissions.

Favoritism and anti-Shi tzu

I took out the favoritism wording in that article and the anti-Shi Tzu wording. That should take care of the weasel words and peacock terms. Words like "great family pet" does not belong in an encyclopedia.--Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 01:07, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually I've seen words like that in tomes as weaselly as the "Encyclopedia Brittanica" (I think that's an encyclopedia). Valuebundle79 (talk) 03:26, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi , I would like to comment on our Lhaso Apso and also ask a question.I agree my Lhaso is quite wiery of children , and stands to be a great gaurd dog.One little noise in the house at night and she,s off to the races,lol.It can be quite annoying ,but we love her all the same.I have managed to make clear to her my dominance over her,but there is no way in hell we can get her to urinate or take her bowel movement outside.She will come in from outside ,even after several hours and pee on the house floor,lol. I don,t get it.I have tried rubbing her nose in it , light spank on the rear end ,yelling and so forth,but to no avail.She knows when she is in trouble , she can be quite the butt kisser when in trouble , really it,s kinda cute.So, this brings me to my question,Does anyone have any ideas how I can get her to do her business outside?Signed ,,,,,,,Smelly carpets,lol. j_brokenshire@yahoo.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.210.195.217 (talk) 00:49, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Do we have anything that can tell a lhasa apso from a shih tzu? I looked at the two articles side by side and saw nothing differentiating them in appearance, life span, health, etc. If there is a way to differentiate them, would someone be so kind as to include it? Clevomon 13:49, 17 Febuary 2008 (UTC)

It's usually their overall size. With a few exceptions, I think Lhasa Apsos are generally bigger. I've also read in some publications that the Shih-Tzu are related to the Lhasa Apsos (which could very well be true), but I'd need to find them and cross-reference the information in that book (don't have time for it right now, but it was a "Lhasa Apso care guide"). LanceHeart (talk) 23:31, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Also the Shih-Tzu's are more pug-nosed. Maybe someone can find a good source giving a good distinction between their appearances. Valuebundle79 (talk) 00:41, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

It might not anything here, but I own both breeds of dogs and they are very different dogs. When ever I meet someone with a Shih Tzu or a Lhasa Apso it's instantly identifiable to me. I can't explain the difference but I can tell you there are differences. Btw the shih tzu is a bit of a better companion in our family, and the Lhasa is a little more of a guard dog, but this is just personal experience on that account.Kinglink (talk) 02:10, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Given *good* representations of each breed, the differences are quite noticeable. Looking at the two standards, they are very close in size. However, the Tzu can be smaller on the the lower end of the range.

Head: The Apso will have a head that is flatter and without a definite "stop" between the eyes. The Tzu head is apple-shaped or domed with a definite stop between the eyes. An Apso head will be 1/3 nose to 2/3 skull. The longer nose of the Apso is needed to warm the frigid air of the Himalayans before it hits the lungs. A good breeder will strive to produce dogs that could survive in Tibet today. The Tzu nose is short, usually not over 1" in length. The Apso will have a larger, more prominent nose leather.

Eyes: The Apso will have a moderate almond-shaped eye, giving it protection from blowing sands and intense sun at altitude. The Tzu will have a prominant round eye.

Body: The Apso will have a rectangular body, i.e., longer than tall with an oval-shaped rib cage (allowing for a larger lung capacity for living at altitude). The Tzu is a compact, square dog with a barrel chest.

Feet: The Apso has rounded, cat-like feet ... and a foot that seems large for a dog its size. They needed a stable base for navigating the mountainous terrain of Tibet. The Tzu has a smaller foot.

Coat: The Apso has a double coat; the Tzu does as well, but the outer coat is not as coarse. A *proper* Apso coat does not have to be brushed daily, even when in full coat. The Apso somes in solid colors (with or without black masking and tipping), solid colors with white markings (shoulder shawl and boots, or a parti-colors. Solid color Tzus are generally not seen outside the show ring. The "classic" Tzu color pattern is: a white blaze on the forehead, a colored "saddle" across the back, and a white-tipped tail.

The Apso tends to pick out one adult in the house to bond with; the Tzu is more of a family dog, being social with all.

Part of the problem differentiating between the two breeds comes from that fact that many BYBs and puppymills produce dogs which are not bred to standard. One does not know if they have a poorly-bred Apso, a poorly-bred Tzu, or a mix of the two breeds! It is quite common in the mills to use a Tzu stud and an Apso for a dam -- resulting in larger litters and more profit for the mill. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.64.212.20 (talk) 04:53, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

"Colour" and "Color" The first spelling is used all throughout the article except in one instance: "All colors are equally acceptable..." It should be spelled one way or the other, not both.Typ0fr33k (talk)Typ0fr33k —Preceding undated comment was added at 03:53, 27 January 2009 (UTC).

"Ancient breed" = "excellent health" ??

"As one of the fourteen ancient dog breeds, Lhasas have excellent health." -- Added the clarifyme tag. I'm not aware of any connection between being one of the "fourteen ancient dog breeds" and good or bad health. Please clarify and cite. -- 201.19.125.166 13:47, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

"Ancient dog breeds" are the ones that are most closely related to wolves (as determined though DNA analysis), which implies that they were recently (hundreds to thousands of years) domesticated. Since humans tend to repeatedly breed animals together to maximize desirable traits, animals that have been domesticated for a long time will have inbred genetic shortcomings. Breeds that lived in the wild until recently ought to have more robust genetics. Still, I wouldn't say to put that in until it's confirmed somewhere. 69.159.75.193 (talk) 04:53, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually I think "Ancient dog breeds" points to a particular breed having been around longer than other breeds. I could be wrong, but since it means having the fewest DNA differences from wolves, that would mean they were some of the first domesticated breeds. Remember, every new breed is branched off other older breeds, and becomes even further removed genetically from wolves. Valuebundle79 (talk) 03:14, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

The Apso is a primative beed ... a landrace that basically evolved in Tibet with little manipulation from the native people. Being one of the "ancient breeds" means it contains genetic material that more closely relates to the ancient gray wolf than other breeds, i.e., breeds that have been developed later on the timeline by crossing two known breeds. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.64.212.20 (talk) 04:40, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Ah, but there is a striking difference between pure breed blood, and excellent health. In fact, those are usually inversely related. popular in-bred dog breeds (ie poodle and german shepard), often have horrible health problems because they stay so pure. Skiendog (talk) 19:22, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Cleanup April 2009

A considerable amount of text had been added to the article; unfortunately, most of it was either taken verbatim from other sources (see WP:COPY) or was non-neutral in tone, including how-to tips for dog owners. Much of the information could probably be returned to the article, but needs to be neutrally phrased and not copied straight from other writers. --bonadea contributions talk 13:32, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

WE NEED MORE STERRANCE IN THIS ARTICLE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.63.36.200 (talk) 06:36, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

No soul

"It was believed that the bodies of the Lhasa Apsos could be entered by souls of deceased lamas while they awaited reincarnation into a new body." is problematic, since we are talking about a predominantly Buddhist culture, the concept of Anatta is not an exact equivalent to "soul" so general readers may misinterpret this. Perhaps "soul" might be replaced with "consciousness", "stream of consciousness", "mind-continuity" or "mind-stream". David Woodward ☮ ♡♢☞☽ 06:42, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced

Why is the lhasa apso page listed with the toy dogs? Isn't it a nonsporting breed? It wasn't even originally bred for the typical toy purpose of companionship, so it really doesn't make much sense. Reinana kyuu (talk) 11:44, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

My mother

My mom got me into this breed, and one of my classmates thinks it's cute. --198.248.159.19 (talk) 15:13, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Lady and the Tramp

Could someone add a bullet point to the "In pop culture" section regarding the lhasa apso that appears in the Disney movie Lady and the Tramp? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.150.32.77 (talk) 15:20, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

No need to mention

The term "domesticated" refers to an entire species. Dogs has been domesticated 20.000 years ago. One can't domesticate a dog twice. For instance a dog is certainly domesticated because even a wolf (which genetically shares a common ancestor with all dogs) raised from a pup would be very different from a dog, in both appearance and behaviour. Hafspajen (talk) 20:01, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Cleanup requests

References on history

The lhasa apso is the smartest dog in the dog family. Comment: I don't know who wrote the above line, but we've been breeding and working with Lhasa Apsos for 25 years and we love them The two breeds that consistently vie for the title of "smartest dog" are the poodle and the border collie. Lhasa Apsos are very catlike and get what they want the way cats do: by training their humans to give it to them. -- Furthermore, the phrase "dog family" is not properly used here since that refers to the entire taxonomic family Canidae, which includes not only coyotes and jackals but also foxes.

The Lhasa Apso article opens by stating that Lhasas have been guarding monastaries for 2000 years but in the "History" section it states that the breed originated in Lhasa about 800 years ago. It also states that they are the 14th most ancient breed. Some clarification might be in order especially for the math discrepancy. Comment: The history is wrong and I thought I changed that. The Lhasa Apso is one of the fourteen oldest breeds and goes back about 8,000 years, into the prehistoric era.

Actually, the reference is on linked article.

It's also an excellent guard dog

All the images depict male Lhasa Apso.

86.4.196.30 20:56, 16 December 2006 (UTC) The point made above regarding a mathematical discrepancy is incorrect. The article states that these dogs have been guarding monasteries in tibet for 1200 years, not 2000 as misquoted above. It also states that the breed originated in Lhasa in 800BC, which is nearer 2,800 years ago and not 800 years ago. There is therefore no discrepancy. 86.4.196.30 20:56, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Wow, why was this all taken out? It seems like this article has been drastically excised from what it was before. I'm thinking there's a lot of notable information that could be added to this. Valuebundle79 (talk) 03:08, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

I think a History section should be put back in. Somebody let me know if they don't agree. Valuebundle79 (talk) 03:20, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

I like this from the akc.org source: "a huge Mastiff was chained to a post beside the outer door to prevent intruders from entering, while Lhasa Apsos were kept as special guards inside the dwellings. For this work, the little dogs were peculiarly adapted by their intelligence, quick hearing, and finely developed instinct for distinguishing intimates from strangers." Looks pretty encyclopedic, no weasel words, etc. etc. Of course someone might disagree. Valuebundle79 (talk) 03:24, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

I cleaned up the non-peer reviewed (pulled from a blog), biased written paragraph: "Currently, there is worldwide concern that it is necessary to breed some of the original Tibetan Lhasa Apsos into the Western bred line which is now 60 years old, to maintain the Tibetan authenticity of the breed. The two lines now differ in some ways which is a concern to breeders who want to properly preserve the breed. There is also some concern for Tibetan Lhasa Apso lines because many dogs were killed during & after the Chinese invasion of Tibet because of the breed's strong cultural symbolism to Tibetans." Instead, I updated the section of newly integrating ancient lines from ALAC (American Lhasa Apso Club) and AKC (American Kennel Club). February 9, 2016Lhasabreedertrainer (talk) 21:13, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Lhasa Apso's Health.

I am commenting on the section where it says that Lhasa Apso's need a lot of exercise. This is in fact incorrect. They are ideal dogs for someone who owns a flat. The ideal amount of exercise for a Lhasa can be a minimum of only ten minutes per day. They are also not equipped to jump on furniture or run up stairs regularly as they are prone to suffer back problems such as slipped discs in the spines. They also have a tendancy to have hernias later in life or even from birth. They need regular grooming every day. The hair around Lhasa Apsos mouth, nose and eyes need to be constantly short as this can cause problems for their sight also. Their eyes need to be cleaned every morning to avoid a build up of sleep which can cause pain if not kkept on top off. Other than the above they are extremely healthy dogs and live a long life. Anything up to 20 years of age!!

An Apso with a proper coat does NOT need groomed daily. Also, letting the hair grow around the eyes negates the need for daily cleaning. With the absence of short hairs poking it in the eyes, the eyes stay cleaner and clearer. Trimming around the eyes also removes the soft, natural expression of the Apso head.

The Apso is a sturdy little mountain dog ... jumping and "taking stairs" was a normal part of its life in Tibet. Indeed, the rectangular body of the Apso evolved as a means for bouldering and traversing the mountainous slopes of its native homeland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.64.212.20 (talk) 04:32, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Lhasa Apsos do need exercise. As they have a compact size, they are able to live in a flat, but it is not ideal. Lhasa apsos are mountain dogs that lived inside and around the monasteries of Tibet in the mountains. They are built to jump. Dogs that do not have proper exercise have an increased risk of slip discs in the spine. Lhasa apsos need just as much exercise as any other dog. They are more stubborn, so they will choose when they are finished exercising. They were bred to be guard dogs and loyal to their masters, not lap dogs. Lhasas were also bred for their long coat. Proper coat should be similar to human hair, a light brush through daily. They should not mat easily, as increased matting decreased their range of motion and health status (increase risk of infection). Long hair around the eyes, mouth and nose are necessary in the cold, brutal weather of the mountains. While keep eyes clear of discharge is important of any dog breed, cutting hair short around the eyes, nose and mouth can actually increase the amount of discharge the eye produces. The eye will increase tear production as to keep the eyeball lubricated from short, sharp hair jutting into the eye. If an owner wishes to keep hair short around the eyes, nose and mouth, it is imperative to regularly trim the areas every couple weeks. Breeder, groomer, trainer of lhasa apsos for over 25 years. February 9, 2016. Lhasabreedertrainer (talk) 21:13, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Lhasa Apso/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

I have been going around on the subject of "hypoallergenic breeds" with an anonymous poster for a couple of weeks. I finally expended the effort of copying dictionary definitions of the words "hypoallergenic" and "nonallergenic," which are NOT the same thing. Whoever you are, please do not vandalize this article again, especially with a colloquial and confrontational writing style that is inappropriate in an encyclopedia. And in the future please do us the courtesy of identifying yourself. My wife and I have been breeding dogs, cats and various species of psittacines for 35 years. Lhasa Apsos are indeed "hypoallergenic," primarily because they do not shed their coats. Of course they are not "nonallergenic," but no one claimed that they are.Gene Fellner (talk) 14:41, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Last edited at 14:41, 8 December 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 21:58, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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