Talk:Liberalism and centrism in Estonia

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I've deleted Koonderakond and Keskkerakond, because no serious political scientist or even journalist has ever called them "Liberal". The word is certainly abiguous, but not that ambiguous. Keskkerakond is populist (and several commentators call it "left"); Koonderakond was really centrist, but never Liberal in any sense either. Clossius 11:36, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Re-added the Coalition Party. The party internationally claimed to be a liberal party when it applied for affiliation to the Liberal Internationa;. Electionworld 12:31, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Nearly nothing can be done against a committed author in wikipedia if the article isn't read. I think not a single article can be found in the quite large literature on Estonian parties, be it scholarly or journalistic, who would substantiate that claim (not of the application, because it's immaterial what a party claims, but of the correct label of Liberalism), so I guess it's enough to have the point here. Clossius 18:20, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

CPE is by the way wanting to join with Liberal International, but indeed is more centre-left aganda with some right-winging ponits (for example, CPE is ignoring social partnership between employers, labour unions and state)

I don't know who wrote the Liberalism and Centrism page in Estonia, or who contrbuted to it, but the Keskerakond or "Center Party" figures prominently there. There is a qualifying statement on the page: "The liberal character of the centrist Estonian Centre Party (Eesti Keskerakond, member LI), ELDR) can be disputed." Wikipedia should in fact strike the Center Party from this page completely, at the risk of otherwise discrediting itself.

You will find that most political analysts in Estonia will dispute not only the liberal character of the Center Party, which it definitely is lacking in, but also its claim to a centrist position. The Center Party is ideologically left of center. Perhaps not radically, but it is unquestionably more of a left-leaning party than one situated midway between left and right. Even left-centrist does not seem like a totally on-the-money categorization of the so-called Center party. It is not an outspoken champion of the free market. It believes in redistribution of wealth much more than it believes in creating capital. There is practically no emphasis on individual freedom in the program of the Center Party of Estonia. Its leader Edgar Savisaar has a nearly authoritarian reputation. The segments of society that the Center party draws upon are the disenfranchised, and it constantly tries to appeal to the Russians and other nationalities who were settled in Estonia during the occuaption period. I am not saying no one should be the champion of the poor, but that has classically been the territory claimed by social-democratic, socialist and communist parties, not centrists, who try to do more of a straddling act.

The attempt to cast (miscast) itself as occupying centrist and liberal territory has been a scam of the Center Party from the beginning. It is more of a pose, a fig leaf, an obfuscation, and a Potemkin Village than an approximation of the truth. Such a thing is only possible in the relatively cluttered post-Soviet landscape of Central and Eastern Europe. Beware! All that glitters is not centrist and certainly not liberal.

Just because someone lays claim to a swath of territory does not mean that we shouldn't be critical, or that we should cede it to them simply because they say so. Journalists, for example, are expected to "get it right" and to "check their facts". The same ought to apply to an encylopedia - even a gratis one - but even more stringently.

Juri Estam Tallinn

Thank you, mr. Estam, I'm having the same dispute on the Wikipedia page on the Estonian Centre Party rigth now. Constanz 16:59, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree that the Centre Party is a left of centre party, but that does not mean it cannot be a liberal party. When I visit the website of the party (English version), the party claim to be a liberal and centrist party. At their last congress I spoke with some (young) representatives of the party. Those people had clearly a liberal attitude. It might not be a strongly ideological liberal party and not a market liberal party, but i am not convinced that the party is not a social liberal party. I re-introduced the Centre Party in the scheme, but mentioned that the liberal character of the party is disputed. Electionworld 21:48, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I can only repeat what I said above: "Nearly nothing can be done against a committed author in wikipedia if the article isn't read. I think not a single article can be found in the quite large literature on Estonian parties, be it scholarly or journalistic, who would substantiate that claim (not of the application, because it's immaterial what a party claims, but of the correct label of Liberalism), so I guess it's enough to have the point here." Once again, it's not personal impressions that matter; it's not overly obscure what "liberal" can mean. In no normal, used sense, in no political science essay is the Center Party called liberal. This does not speak against it by any means (why should it), but to list the Center Party here is surely cranky. Clossius 22:09, 27 November 2005 (UTC)