Talk:Libyan National Army

Libya receives more Russian tank destroyers

"Libya has taken delivery of a consignment of advanced Khrizantema-S tank destroyers, opening up the possibility that it will receive more of the Russian military equipment that it ordered before the 2011 war that overthrew Muammar Ghadaffi."[1]

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The National Libyan Army are not the Libyan Armed Forces

The Libyan National Army is controlled by Khalifa Haftar and backed by a political entity that is not recognized as a legitimate government either by the UN or the international community (House of Representatives). This means that what this article calls the "Libyan National Army" can not be considered as a government military force, but rather as one of the various factions in the war. This source, for example, states: "While Khalifa Haftar is recognised as general commander of the armed forces by the HoR in eastern Libya, his self-styled Libyan National Army (LNA) is a mix of military units and tribal or regional-based armed groups, and is not recognised as a proper army by all military personnel across the east or west of Libya."

Therefore, the title of the article should be Libyan Armed Forces and Libyan National Army would be a specific article for this faction. 179.98.47.202 (talk) 13:18, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Regular force number

Jason Pack of Institute for International Political Studies (ISPI) in May 2019 estimates 7000 total regular LNA soldiers. The present version of this article has:

• 5500
• 7000
• 6500
• 2000
• 3000
• 2800
• 4000
• 3500
• 2500

for the brigades ranging from 106th to 5th from top to bottom. But 5500+7000+6500+2000+3000+2800+4000+3500+2500 = 36800, which is about five times too big. So these numbers are labelled as "dubious". (And they lack sources). Boud (talk) 02:55, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

These might be the claimed figures, Haftar claims an army of around 80.000. Should be a disclaimer or just removed, these numbers are nowhere to be found IMO. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.97.18.220 (talk) 02:03, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

References

Proposal: add Libyan military template at bottom of LNA article

It would seem to me accurate (given the sources) to include the Template:Military of Libya at the bottom of this article. Haftar was appointed by the HoR, which remains "internationally recognised", and the de facto situation is that 30% of the LNA is a regular army, while the LA is an anti-LNA alliance of militias. See the sources, especially the Jason Pack/ISPI analysis (there's a pdf there for people who find that more convenient than html). The GNA is internationally recognised as the government, but the reality is that the Libyan armed forces are split, with both "parts" having some sort of claim of legitimacy or realpolitik control.

This is the version of the template that I'm referring to. If someone objects to the template's present form (oldid 925417105 or with minor changes), then my proposal might not make sense any more.

UNSMIL is holding Haftar/LNA responsible for releasing the kidnapped member of parliament Seham Sergiwa or providing her body and investigating the kidnapping, so we would not be "recognising" the LNA any more than the UNSMIL is "recognising" the LNA.

Any objections? Boud (talk) 00:48, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

 Done (some time ago, since there were no objections). Boud (talk) 19:57, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

Overreliance on MEE

In this edit by an editor, a concern was expressed that many of the factual claims in this article come from a single Middle East Eye source. See the article Middle East Eye (MEE) for claims and counterclaims about whether MEE is biased in favour of Qatar. Since Qatar supports the GNA in the present (2019) Libyan conflict, it would be better that additional sources are found to reduce the possibility that this article is biased in favour of Qatar/the GNA/the Muslim Brotherhood.

Please update the article with information from other sources, presenting and attributing the different claims in cases that these contradict each other. After some reasonable delay and if no dispute exists among editors, then, as recommended at Wikipedia:NPOV dispute, the POV warning at the top of the article can be removed. Boud (talk) 01:00, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Numbers of regular vs militia/mercenary troops

I'm a bit confused about the need for better sources in the infobox: MEE gives about 50:50 (give or take 10%) for the regular to irregular ratio; ISPI (Jason Pack) gives 7000 to 18000, which is about 30:70 regular:irregular. So the MEE numbers compared to the ISPI ones appear biased in favour of modestly exaggerating the proportion of regular troops. Of course, ISPI is in Italy, so if the Italian state is seen as influencing the researchers based there, then ISPI/Pack could be perceived to be pro-GNA, in which case both sources could be suspected of underestimating the "regular" troop proportion. Boud (talk) 01:19, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

No dispute exists

The template:POV tag is not intended to be a drive-by tag: see Wikipedia:Responsible tagging and Wikipedia:Tag bombing. A quote from the POV guideline: "Drive-by tagging is strongly discouraged. The editor who adds the tag should discuss concerns on the talk page, pointing to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies. In the absence of such a discussion, or where it remains unclear what the NPOV violation is, the tag may be removed by any editor."

We don't have any issues that appear to be actionable (no one found any reliable sources that significantly contradicted MEE and were refused by some editors). We don't have a POV dispute without an active dispute. So I'll remove the tag. Boud (talk) 22:59, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

LNA Flag and Logo

Hello, the logo you are using as LNA flag is wrong. Its the GNA Flag, which is the oposite army/party in tripoli Please replace it.

image = File:LNA LOGO FINAL.png this is the correct also, their army total count is 110.000 not 7000 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Demonasgr (talk • contribs) 12:38, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

You claim that File:LNA logo and flag.jpg is the logo of the LNA. These recent photos (during the GNA vs LNA epoch):

• Haftar photo dated 2019-04-28
• Haftar - caption says 2018-12

show an image on Haftar's military hat that is a bit different from the Flag of the LGF logo (the middle part of Haftar's hat's logo has only two crossed swords without extra things; the two curved leaves are wider on Haftar's hat's logo than in the LGF flag), so this is reasonable evidence that the LGF flag is wrong. For this reason, I will remove the present link to the Flag of the LGF, since I assume that there is no objection to removing the link.

However, to find an image file that we can use as the LNA logo in this article we need two things:

1. Some reasonable online evidence that the photo is actually used by the LNA as its logo;
2. A free-licensed photo.

The second point follows from the first point. If File:LNA logo and flag.jpg is the logo of the LNA, then User_talk:Mohamed.elmaleh = User_talk:LNA-MID, who claims that he works for a media centre of the LNA and that the photo is his personal work, will have to make it clear that he really did design the LNA logo himself, and that the LNA is happy for him to publish a free-licensed version of the official LNA logo.

Boud (talk) 21:15, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Informal proposal to rename to Haftar armed forces

@ILibya10, Mohamed 27192, EkoGraf, Koopinator, Goodposts, Prince Hubris, and David O. Johnson: The United Nations Panel of Experts on Libya has decided to rename the "LNA" as the Haftar armed forces (HAF), where the definition includes the various militias and mercenary groups supporting the military forces that appear to be controlled by Khalifa Haftar. See reference [2] in the current version of Libyan National Army. The same reference says that the LNA now wants to be called (in English), the "Libyan Arab Armed Forces". (A reasonable interpretation (no sources, so far) of the UN Panel of Experts' choice is that this is because the GNA is the internationally recognised government of Libya, and the LNA/HAF is an armed opposition group/group of groups, with only de facto support from France, UAE and Egypt. The aim is presumably to delegitimise the LNA. But this interpretation is not very relevant to Wikipedia decision-making on names, especially since there are no sources so far.)

However, in the Libya-related articles, we have (after much effort), managed to clarify the organisation (according to sources) of the various armed forces in Libya, where GNA forces or Libyan Army refers to the forces commanded by Sarraj/the GNA, and LNA refers to the forces commanded by Haftar. In Wikipedia, we tend to go by either official names or common names used by, in this case, the English-language mainstream media, and in some cases more in-depth analyses by international security research institute researchers. In some recent edits:

• these by ILibya10 on Libyan Army (GNA forces)
• these by 88.234.8.70 and Mohamed 27192 on Libyan National Army (LNA)

there was effectively a proposal to rename Libyan Army to Libyan National Army and Libyan National Army to Haftar Armed Forces or Qaramita Forces.

My feeling is that until/unless the mainstream media and/or more UN sources - such as UNSMIL - and/or in-depth security institute researchers start using "Haftar Armed Forces" (or "Qaramita Forces", though I don't see any sources supporting that) widely, there would be no justification in renaming either article. To focus the discussion, the main request is: please state Support or Oppose with reasons, for the informal proposal to: rename Libyan National Army to Haftar Armed Forces (I can't imagine any support for renaming Libyan Army to Libyan National Army, because for a long period there would be utter confusion). Boud (talk) 11:03, 9 February 2020 (UTC) Boud (talk) 11:07, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose any renaming on any short time scale, with reasons stated above, as the proposer. Boud (talk) 11:03, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose Libyan National Army is still the most common name used, and per Wikipedia's policy we go with that. If and when that changes, we can discuss renaming the article. EkoGraf (talk) 12:23, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose as the LNA is still the most commonly used name. Instead, the article's name should remain as it currently is, but the lead should say - " the Libyan National Army (LNA), officially the Libyan Arab Armed Forces (LAAF) and also known as the Haftar Armed Forces (HAF) is.... " As for the former name, while I do see RS referring to it as the LAAF - namely Associated Press, Xinhua and ABC News, sources referring to the rename, as well as when it exactly happened are scarce. This webpage links to an interview with Haftar, in which he defends the use of the term "Arab" - but this is nearly two years old. For these reasons, I believe the suggestion above is a reasonable compromise. Best regards, Goodposts (talk) 13:03, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per stated above.--HCPUNXKID 15:33, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

LNA/HAF/LAAF flag

If someone has a source as evidence that File:Flag of the Libyan National Army.svg is the flag of the LNA/HAF/LAAF, then please provide that source here. Until then, it seems safest to me to have no flag for the LNA/HAF/LAAF, so I will revert this IP edit. Boud (talk) 21:39, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Done, just checked the Flag used by LNA in official meetings, Its a white flag with a Eagle.Mr.User200 (talk) 23:57, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

that flag used is the real flag as i am libyan i know all fractions flags

thanks i really am happy to see my country's flag flutter! 2.127.114.142 (talk) 00:57, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Edits that may need third-party intervention

These edits may need looking at by someone independent from me, the IP and Pestick:

• removed sourced information by a notable source - the United Nations Panel of Experts on Libya under United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973 - which is a notable source, representing the closest thing that exists to neutrality in this context
• removing context and introducing odd English (no "the" in front of "LNA"; "Sudaneses") and using bold on words in ordinary prose, contrary to typical Wikipedia style
• both were reverted by me and restored with this edit by Pestick.

Boud (talk) 13:28, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

I think that the current version of the article is fair and undestandable to a non-experienced reader. "a unified national force under the command of Field Marshal Khalifa Haftar" is Ok, for a casual reader. Also the Infobox at the right clearly says Haftar Army.Mr.User200 (talk) 23:52, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Comment regarding disinformation, Attempts at Libel and belittlement

I would like to share a word / comment / with all editors and viewers, and appreciate the neutrality encouraged by editors and admins, There is a very powerful smear campaign / covert political attempts / since 2011 & organized politically motivated demonization campaigns against the Libyan national army, as you are aware, some have even come to wikipedia to belittle a Libyan Military body as composed of mostly mercenaries, Sub-saharan Africans, chadians and claim that the Military is "Nothing but a ragtag militia force". As you are all aware, some have even requested to rename the army to "Haftar armed forces", if i may comment, a ridiculous request. Islamists in Tripoli have engaged in brutal smear campaigns against the Military, as it threatens their Turkish-Qatari backed anarchic backward existence. For a matter of fact and definition, a army is defined by a clear disciplinary body, and a central authority with which units of clear rank follow supreme commands.

Unlike the ragtag criminal anarchic organized militias backed by a illegal UN created state, backed by Turkish and Qatari Intelligences in Tripoli. People may dismiss my comment as "Bias" or "politically loaded", however, i digress, this is FACT, and is also FACT that Qatar is a state sponsor of organized Terrorism, And has used the Muslim brotherhood to extend its influences, Finances to politically motivated religious groups around the world using Islam as a tool for political influences.

Thank you for maintaining neutrality. Biomax20 (talk) 15:52, 13 September 2020 (UTC) Edit: We still consider the LNA as الجيش الوطني الليبي ... The Libyan national army, despite what Islamists like to label it. Biomax20 (talk) 15:54, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Equipment

I'ma add their drone and aircrafts. They have reached them form Iran before Jw10u36engeve25be768ko27siw37ppql639sns918nvzfgzb (talk) 02:07, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

• received, not reached Jw10u36engeve25be768ko27siw37ppql639sns918nvzfgzb (talk) 02:07, 25 December 2020 (UTC)