Talk:Lily, Rosemary and the Jack of Hearts

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Straightforward narrative?

Funny, but all this alleged confusion over the song's plot and meaning is new to me. I just thought the song followed what seems, to me at least, to follow quite a simple narrative. DisinterestedScribe (talk) 09:23, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree; some things are hinted at rather than spelled out, but everything you need to know is right there in the song. There's no ambiguity at all about who killed Big Jim, for one. His wife, Rosemary, is clearly given both the motive ("one good deed before she died") and weapon ("seeing her reflection in the knife") before hand, is "drinkin hard", and is "right beside him" at the critical moment, "with Big Jim but...leanin’ to the Jack of Hearts". There can be speculation maybe about a deeper reference here and there (such as the use of cards as an allusion to fate, or the intended symbolism behind names such as "Lily" and "Rosemary"), but the actual plot details aren't too difficult to decipher with a careful reading. Some familiarity with the common elements of the ballad, including the frequent use of foreshadowing, helps, as this is a perfect example of the genre. Acerimusdux (talk) 16:50, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

I cut the speculation about Rosemary being framed. Listen to the lyrics: door opened, revolver clicked, "it all happened pretty quick" -- if pen knife was in the back, it must have been someone standing close behind Big Jim, not in front. Martindo (talk) 11:26, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

As eckersonian posted on Reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/bobdylan/comments/xio4ja/can_anyone_summarise_the_story_of_lilly_rosemary/

Lily had already taken all of the dye out her hair.

Lily killed big Jim, disguised as rosemary

The speculation that Rosemary was framed is valid. 2600:1700:6F00:1390:39F6:8DB7:CE2F:86D8 (talk) 08:25, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

The reference link is dead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.90.23.235 (talk) 02:49, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Tricksters - One of Dylan's Favorite Character Types

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickster

I think it's a simple trickster story, with The Jack of Hearts creating the circumstances for all of the main characters to fulfill their fates. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.50.50.220 (talk) 17:58, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Plot edits

Hope no one minds, but I edited the plot to mention that the cabaret is not about to be closed, but is clearly being renovated – you don't paint a room just before you close a building ("Be careful not to touch the wall, there’s a brand-new coat of paint"), and none of the patrons was disturbed by the drilling ("The drillin' in the wall kept up but no one seemed to pay it any mind"), demonstrating that the cabaret was clearly having work done. Also removed the paragraph about The Jack of Hearts escaping disguised as a monk, as this cannot take place – not only does it jar with the extra verse (Lily is still embracing Jack in the verse AFTER the "backstage manager" verse), but it states in the song that Jack was "on the scene" when the murder took place. BellaPero (Talk) 18:24, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

The phrase Dylan uses is "on the scene missing" ... not on the scene in other words. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.253.131.178 (talk) 09:47, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the line "The only person on the scene missing was the Jack of Hearts" means that Jack had been at the scene of the murder, but was now missing, unlike the other three. AmethystFloris (talk) 10:01, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

There are a few other jarring notes in the Plot section:

1. The "gang" clearly didn't take the safe "they cleaned out the safe". So they were waiting with the loot at the end.

2. The song isn't clear on this, but it could be that the Jack of Hearts killed Big Jim. In this case, Rosemary's "one good deed before she dies" is confessing to the crime, to let the Jack of Hearts go free. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PanjandrumDeCarlo (talk • contribs) 02:25, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Hearts, Clubs, Diamonds, Spades

Hearts - Jack of Hearts.

Clubs - The Cabaret club

Diamonds - Big Jim, the King of Diamonds, owns the diamond mine.

Spades - Jack's gang, digging into the bank next door.

--One Salient Oversight (talk) 23:56, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Well done. Thanks.Martindo (talk) 11:28, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Extra verse(s)

"The following verse was considered ^{[by whom?]} in later years as a follow on for those who asked what happened to Lily and the Jack of Hearts. This was added at the song's end ^{[by whom, where & when?]}". 146.200.7.11 (talk) 21:36, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Character Edits

1. It isn't clear that Rosemary is Big Jim's wife. All we know is that she is "tired of playing the role of Big Jim's wife". Playing a role implies they aren't really married.

2. The Hanging Judge is never referred to as a drunk. In fact, it seems certain that getting him drunk "being wined and dined" is part of the Jack of Hearts' plan to make sure he couldn't interfere right away. And it worked when the back stage manager couldn't get the judge to do anything. Also, "hanging judge" is what they called judges that sentenced almost everyone to hang by the neck until dead. It also isn't clear that he is "a patron of the bar". Many people were only there for the show. PanjandrumDeCarlo (talk) 02:16, 31 December 2023 (UTC)