Talk:Lincoln Highway

Lincoln Highway as first transcontinental highway

It simply isn't correct to revert the text at the beginning of this article to say the Lincoln Highway was the very first transcontinental auto highway. In this case, NPR is not a reliable source on the issue because they are reporting on what they were told by Lincoln Highway representatives and not on factual evidence from historical records. I have discussed this issue in the talk page previously.

The Lincoln Highway was certainly not the first transcontinental highway association to form. Nor was it the first to be fully mapped. Carl Fisher's dinner party in Indianapolis did not occur until September 10, 1912. The Lincoln Highway Association was not incorporated until July 1, 1913 and the highway's dedication ceremony did not happen until October 31, 1913.

The National Old Trails Road was based on already existing roads and trails. The entire eastern section between Baltimore and St. Louis was part of the National Road that was built between 1811 and 1837. The road was surveyed all the way to St. Louis by 1920. Road surface construction was completed all the way to Vandalia, Illinois. From St. Louis to Franklin, Missouri, the road followed the Boone's Lick Road set out by Daniel Boone's sons in the early 19th century. The Daughters of the American Revolution marked this old route in 1909. From there the NOTR followed the Santa Fe Trail (1821) to Santa Fe, New Mexico. This was fully marked by the Daughters of the American Revolution in 1907. Between Santa Fe and Albuquerque the National Old Trails Road followed the path of Camino Real de Tierra Adentro (1598–1882), then followed wagon roads such as the Beale's Wagon Road into California. In California it followed part of the paths of the Old Spanish Trail and Brown's toll road into Los Angeles.

The National Old Trails Road had its start in 1910. The Daughters of the American Revolution in Missouri wanted to unite the trails mentioned above into a single transcontinental automobile road. A New Santa Fe Trail highway association had already formed in Hutchinson, Kansas in January 1910. On January 15, 1911, William Patterson Borland (U.S. Repr., Missouri) introduced the Daughters of the American Revolution Old Trails Road Act (H. R. 2864) to the US Congress. The first part of the National Old Trails Road was dedicated in Missouri on October 28, 1911 as the "Missouri Cross State Highway—Old Trails Road." In 1911 a road following closely to the original Santa Fe Trail was laid out and the Old Santa Fe Trail highway association formed in November 1911 in Herington, Kansas. This would become the path of the National Old Trails Road through Kansas.

On December 19, 1911 the very first state convention of the National Old Trails Road took place in Kansas City, Missouri where the Old Trails Road Association of Missouri formed. On December 20-21, 1911 delegates from California, Arizona, and New Mexico met in Phoenix for the Tri-State Road Convention to discuss the "Ocean to Ocean Highway" through their states. The route would become the proposed alignment of the National Old Trails Road.

On April 17-18, 1912, five months before Carl Fisher's dinner party, the first national convention of the National Old Trails Road took place in Kansas City. During this convention the western route of the road was chosen to follow the same route chosen by the Tri-State Road Convention.

On April 19, 1912, advocates for the building of the National Old Trails Road spoke before the Committee on Agriculture of the U.S. House of Representatives regarding the second National Old Trails Road Act (H.R. 17919) to be presented to Congress. William Patterson Borland (U.S. Repr., Missouri), Elizabeth Gentry of the D.A.R., and several others spoke there.

On April 29-30, 1913, three months before the Lincoln Highway Association was even incorporated, the National Old Trails Road Association held its second national convention at which the northern route through Flagstaff, Williams, and Needles was chosen. This road, from Santa Fe, New Mexico to Los Angeles would become the first alignment of US Route 66.

A third convention took place in Indianapolis on May 7-9, 1914. On August 20, 1914, the Automobile Club of Southern California began completely signing the route of the National Old Trails Road between Los Angeles and Kansas City. From that point east, the road was well marked all the way to New York City. The Club released a set of National Old Trails Road maps in 1914, and again in 1915... and well into the 1930s.

In 1926, Harry S. Truman became the second president of the National Old Trails Road Association, replacing Judge J. M. Lowe.

In addition to all this clear evidence of the primacy of the National Old Trails Road, I should note that other transcontinental trail associations formed before the Lincoln Highway Association. The Yellowstone Trail Association officially formed in October 1912, only a month after Carl Fisher's dinner party. In late 1912, discussions for building a southern transcontinental highway took place nationally. On January 20, 1913, over 100 delegates from Arizona and southern California formed the San Diego-Arizona auxiliary of the Southern National Highway Association with the main purpose of building a highway bridge over the Colorado River at Yuma for the highway. (This on the original, pre-1913, routing of the NOTR.) A few days later on February 5, 1913, the South Carolina House and Senate enacted a concurrent resolution proposing the building of the Southern National Highway. On February 12, 1913, five months before the incorporation of the Lincoln Highway Association, a national conference was held in Asheville, NC to chose the path of the Southern National Highway, the southern route from Washington, DC to southern California. Delegates were sent by the governors of 15 southern states. The meeting was organized by Colonel Dell M. Potter of Clifton, Arizona. On November 2, 1915 a documented motorcade took off from San Diego driving to Washington, DC along the Southern National Highway. The Midland Trail also predates the Lincoln Highway. Signage for it was first erected in 1913 and a map by Anton Westgard showing the basic route was published in the New York Times on May 4 1913.

Although not an association, I should also mention the great highway pathfinder Anton Westgard. He drove and mapped out several transcontinental routes and published the maps in newspapers. In 1910, he drove from Chicago to Los Angeles and mapped out a route he called "Trail to Sunset." This entire route was published as a set of detailed strip maps in 1911 by AAA.

In addition to these associations that predated that of the Lincoln Highway, several others formed at nearly the same time. The Pikes Peak Ocean to Ocean Highway Association formed in St. Joseph, Missouri on March 18, 1914. The Dixie Overland Highway Association, much of which would later become US Route 80, formed on July 17, 1914. The first conference of the Old Spanish Trail Association took place in Mobile, AL on December 11-12, 1915. Scores of other auto trails would soon follow.

Though not an east–west transcontinental route, I should also mention one of the first long distance auto trails associations, the Pacific Highway Association formed on September 18, 1910 to create a north-south highway from Mexico to Canada. Much of the road already existed. Much of the El Camino Real section of the Pacific Highway in California was even paved in Portland cement as early as 1909.

So, this is why I respectfully write the phrase "one of the earliest transcontinental highways" at the beginning of the Lincoln Highway article. I feel that unequivocally stating that the Lincoln Highway was the first transcontinental highway is not based on historical fact. I can provide verifiable and reliable evidence for everything I stated above. — — ★Parsa ☞ talk 07:13, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Parsa This is original research. Do you have a source which states your conclusion? 331dot (talk) 08:47, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I stated as much. Everything is verifiable. This is a talk post, not an article in itself. I would think the congressional record for two acts of Congress would be enough. But yes, there are dozens of secondary sources, including this two part article by the same Richard Weingroff cited in the Lincoln Highway article. Part 1, Part 2.

There are also all the early NOTR maps that are considered secondary sources. Here's a 1911 map of the proposed trail route for example. And a 1911 map of the Missouri Cross State Highway—Old Trails Road. There's also association president Joseph Macaulay Lowe's 1924 book The National Old Trails Road : The great historic highway of America, detailing the full history of the highway.

See the following period newspaper and journal article facsimiles of just a couple from dozens that can be sourced:

• The Boone’s Lick Road and Santa Fé Trail: The Missouri Cross-State Highway
• New Highway Association Locates National Road: The 1911 Tri-State Roads Convention in Phoenix

— ★Parsa ☞ talk 09:38, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't see in either of these sources where it states that a different highway was first, or that the Lincoln Highway was not first. 331dot (talk) 09:54, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

1911 and 1912 came before 1913. Does the text have to explicitly state the word "first" when they are providing clear chronological dates? By anyone's definition, something that began in 1911 is "first" when compared to something that began in 1913. — ★Parsa ☞ talk 18:32, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Except here there are not clear definitions of what a "highway" is from this period. Everything you have posted on this page is original research. As I've already said, I'm not suggesting that you are incorrect. I am only saying that the article currently has two sources to support the statement that the LH "is the first transcontinental highway in the United States and one of the first highways designed expressly for automobiles". Googling gives some others, like a historical marker in Wyoming, among other sources. 331dot (talk) 19:02, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Per WP:RSP NPR is generally considered reliable. If you disagree with what NPR reports in this case, you need to take that up with them and get them to change their reporting. 331dot (talk) 08:49, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

So Wikipedia will support the statement on a single article from some feature reporter as opposed to the clear sources such as the Federal Highway Administration, the US Congressional Records, many dozens of newspaper and journal articles from around the country, and the records of the Daughters of the American Revolution? — ★Parsa ☞ talk 09:44, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not accept original research. If you have a source which states your ultimate conclusion here- that the Lincoln Highway was not "the first transcontinental highway in the United States" or that another highway was the first, that's what we need. 331dot (talk) 09:51, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

No sorry. It's not a Wikipedia article I'm writing that requires secondary sources. It's the fact that a transcontinental highway existed before the Lincoln Highway. I've provided that proof. That makes the statement by the NPR article historically false. News sources make factual errors all the time. I am not responsible to make them alter an old, factually erroneous article for the use by Wikipedia as a source. However, I have provided verifiable and reliable sources above such as the two-part Weingroff article and the 1911 era maps.

So, an article is sufficient? Here's an article saying the Yellowstone Trail was the first transcontinental highway: The Oldest Road In America, Yellowstone Trail, Passes Right Through Illinois. Here's the statement by the Yellowstone Trail Association. Contrast that to a similar statement by the Lincoln Highway Association. Here's one saying the Midland Trail was the first: Midland Trail – First Transcontinental Auto Trail. The Lincoln Highway Association themselves says that the road was dedicated in 1913. This article by the US Bureau of Land Management says the National Old Trails Road was built in 1912. The National Park Service that oversees Route 66 as a national historic road states the same about the National Old Trails Road. — ★Parsa ☞ talk 10:42, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

An "auto trail" is not a highway- the Midland Trail source you provide even has a sign- "Midland Trail to Lincoln Highway". The "only in your state" source seems to be a blog that lacks editorial control and fact checking, and it posted their original research. Um, yes, this is a Wikipedia article we are discussing and you do need secondary sources, not primary source information like statements from highway associations or government documents. Publish your original research with a reputable publisher(not self-publish) or write an academic paper that is peer reviewed. I'm not saying that what you say is incorrect, only that you don't have sources that say what your claim is. I am certainly not the only or last word, and others may comment. 331dot (talk) 10:52, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

The Lincoln Highway has the name "highway" in it, but these roads were all called auto trails. They were referred to that way by companies such as Rand McNally. Many bore the name "trail", while others used "highway", "route", "way", or "road." The Weingroff article The National Old Trails Road, posted on the Federal Highway Administration website, clearly talks about the highway as starting in 1911, the two NOTR bills presented to Congress, and the first national convention in April 1912. That's clearly a reputable, verifiable, and reliable secondary source. Nowhere in the FHWA Lincoln Highway article, cited as a source for the Lincoln Highway being the first transcontinental highway, does it actually say it was the first highway. The National Park Service's Special Resource Study: Route 66 corroborates the early date by stating, "The National Old Trails Road, as conceived in 1912, originated on the East Coast with branches to Baltimore and Washington, D.C, and terminated on the West Coast at San Diego." The article I linked to from the Bureau of Land Management also states this. Those are all US federal sources that were researched thoroughly. I also listed Judge Lowe's 1924 book about the history of the National Old Trails Road. In the book The National Old Trails Road in Arizona (with full citations) by Richard and Sherry Mangum (2008, Hexagon Press, Flagstaff), the authors state, "Judge J. M. Lowe of Missouri became aware of the efforts of the DAR in his state and believed that their idea of a modern highway following historic trails was a good one. On October 5, 1910, Lowe addressed the National Good Roads Association convention and outlined the idea for the DAR National Old Trails Road." The book then includes several chapters about discussion on the preferred route of the highway that took place in 1911. The book devotes an entire chapter to the first NOTR national convention in Kansas City on April 18–19, 1912, stating "over five hundred delegates from many states attended." The Association was formed officially, and officers were elected. In 1996, Karl Raitz published a massive two-volume book on the National Road published by Johns Hopkins University Press. Volume 1 is a 489 page history of the National Road, while volume 2 is the definitive 392 page guide to the road. Volume 1 also fully reviews the early history of the National Old Trails Road, including Judge Lowe's 1910 speech to the National Good Roads Association convention and the continuing efforts of the DAR in 1911 to organize the nation behind the transcontinental highway concept. Raitz states, "In 1912, a National Old Trails Road Convention attracted 500 delegates from nine states. All National Road states were represented." All of these facts are corroborated by newspapers of the period and by the records of the Daughters of the American Revolution. — ★Parsa ☞ talk 18:11, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

"National Old Trails Road, also known as the Ocean-to-Ocean Highway, was established in 1912, and became part of the National Auto Trail system in the United States. One year before the Linclon Highway was dedicated. Are you saying that in 1912 there was a difference between a Coast to Coast Highway and Coast to Coast Road? The NOTR was not renamed until 1926 where coincident with Highwway 66.1928 in California. Did it become a highway in 1926? Chucksjc (talk) 20:24, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

@331dot: NPR may be generally reliable, but no organization is infallible. If there are clear sources to the contrary, then that specific article should be disregarded or distinguished so as not to repeat erroneous claims as fact. I will note that the text of the NPR article doesn't quite state the claim so explicitly as it does in the headline.

At best, the situation warrants an explanatory footnote such as:

The Lincoln Highway is one of the the first transcontinental highways in the United States and one of the first highways designed expressly for automobiles.

At fullest, there may need to be a whole section in the article to address the competing claims.

Either way, we address the claim and provide a specific citation on why that claim is wrong. It helps that that FHWA source has a 2018 date on it, making it a more recent piece. Our article needs to be edited to remove the one FHWA source that does not cite the first claim. Perhaps it's only citing the "one of the first highways designed expressly for automobiles" portion, and if so, content needs to be shifted to make clear that the two halves of the sentence don't come from the same pair of sources collectively but individually. If so, then the footnote above would be moved ahead in the sentence. Imzadi 1979 → 19:01, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm not saying anything is infallible, but there has only been original research posted here, requiring a conclusion to be drawn from the information offered. I'm more than willing to say that the "first" status is disputed or unclear- even though googling "first transcontinental highway" brings up several results for the Lincoln Highway(such as the historical marker in Wyoming I link to above) so I don't think NPR is just making it up. 331dot (talk) 19:05, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm quite happy with your explanatory footnote. 331dot (talk) 19:07, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

The issue arises due to the fact that the modern Lincoln Highway Association is very active and as far as I'm aware there is no modern National Old Trails Road Association. Promoters for the Lincoln Highway pretty much universally state that it was the first without any voice countering that claim. Towns along the highway echo that belief and newspapers and websites repeat it. — ★Parsa ☞ talk 20:55, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Is there any dispute that the NOTR Association was created in 1912 and the Lincoln Highway Association was created in 1913? Chucksjc (talk) 00:37, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

The national old trails road : the great historic highway of America; a brief resume of the principal events connected with the rebuilding of the old Cumberland--now the National old trails road--from Washington and Baltimore to Los Angeles (archive.org) . 18 National Old Trails Road HIGHWAY DEPARTMENT Office of State Highway Engineer Columbia, Mo., March 1st, 1912. The three following letters, so pertinent to efforts to rebuild and rehabilitate the old National Road into a great road across the continent, make interesting reading to those persons interested in the Boonslick Road, Santa Fe Trail, or any one of the old roads which make up the National Old Trails Road. Yours truly, CURTIS HILL, State Highway Engineer. Chucksjc (talk) 02:41, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

References

References

The explanatory footnote has been reverted and is now gone. I have to still refute the initial statement in this article. It is not original research when there are secondary source books, federal government articles, and maps that clearly state that the National Old Trails Road existed before the formation of the Lincoln Highway. The Yellowstone Trail and Midland Trail also existed at an earlier date. I've cited all of these secondary sources above in these discussions. There is no need for an article to be written about another highway being the "first" when it has been shown to be chronologically older. That's the ultimate condition for primacy in historical research. The Congressional Record has also been used in Wikipedia articles and that clearly shows the existence of the NOTR before 1913. Maps are certainly considered secondary sources and I linked to those as well. It's just ridiculous to me that this is even an issue and seems to represent a bias that should not exist in a global encyclopedia. If one were to find an article saying that another highway was "first" (which I demonstrated was true already), then it calls into doubt a feature article written by a reporter who may not have done the necessary research on the subject, but instead relied on the validity of statements made by people she was interviewing. — — ★Parsa ☞ talk 22:44, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

I agree that it doesn't deserve the simplistic moniker "first transcontinental highway" and I'm glad to see that the article no longer says. that. "One of the first" is much better. Thank you.

I even wonder if we need to find some good sources on what the word "highway" meant at the time, and clarify what was actually accomplished, to avoid misunderstandings. There is a new book on the Lincoln, and an interview on NPR (!) just this morning noting that it was really a marketing concept, and was never "finished", and remained dirt in places for decades, etc etc. Francis Barry's 'Back Roads and Better Angels' details his Lincoln Highway trip : NPR. ★NealMcB★ (talk) 19:10, 4 July 2024 (UTC)