Talk:Linguistic features of Spanish as spoken by Catalan speakers

Unreferenced stuff

I've deleted two entries in the Bibliography which don't say a single word about Levantino Spanish. In addition, all the article sounds like a bunch of popular myths with no academic support. There is no homogeneous dialect of Spanish in the Catalan-speaking territories, and I should know, because I've lived in those territories most of my life. --Jotamar (talk) 16:18, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

I forgot to mention that the 2 remaining bibliography entries, which I haven't been able to check, are high-school manuals, and therefore have only a very marginal value as sources for WP. --Jotamar (talk) 16:37, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

This article was traduced complete from Característiques lingüístiques del castellà parlat per catalanòfons from Wikipedia in Catalan, that is the same article Variedad del idioma español en territorios catalanófonos of Wikipedia in Spanish, i just put that Levantino name beacause Levante include Catalonia, Balearic islands, and Valencian community and this name also can fit in a template, such as, one example, in Template:Spanish variants by continent. I think also as in the rest of regions where speak Spanish having its own language (as in Galicia, the Castrapo Spanish and the Galician) has this a name the dialects of Spanish, why there no there, they should be different?, or in the Levante zone no exist a dialect of Spanish, i think that yes exist, one well marked and well own--Vvven (talk) 17:00, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't have a problem to keep this article, mixed languages can be added to Wikipedia. However I would suggest to find a better name. Levantino is totally misleading as the term "Levante" also includes Murcia, Almería and parts of Albacete. — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 09:22, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

This is not mixed language. is clearly Slanish Language with few (very very few compared with the Spanish used) and specified word in Catalan, just the named in article in all the variety. Mexican Spanish (just one example) still being Spanish perphaps that has more much Indigenous word in its Spanish than this Levantino,--Vvven (talk) 15:23, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Sir, apparently you are from Venezuela, what is exactly your knowledge about the Catalan-speaking area? Because depending on what you say, I could explain in different ways why I don't like this page. --Jotamar (talk) 17:01, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Rename and split

I suggest to change the title, delete the entry Levantino Spanish, and perhaps split the concept. — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 09:35, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

How about "Catalanyol" (or Catalañol) and/or "Spanish language in Catalonia, Valencia and the Balearic Islands"? — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 13:27, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

This is not mixed language. is clearly Spanish Language with few (very very few compared with the Spanish used) and specified word in Catalan, just the named in article in all the variety, Mexican Spanish (just one example) still being Spanish perphaps that has more much Indigenous word in its Spanish than this Levantino, or you thinks that Valencians speaks "Catalanyol" and not Spanish? --Vvven (talk) 15:23, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

I've never heard the term Levantino. As I said on the previous talk the Levante includes Murcia, do Murcians use the same accent as Catalans? Also, do you have any sources that use the term Levantino? — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 15:47, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

I will move the article name to "Catalan/Valenciano Spanish". We can agree with that?--Vvven (talk) 16:08, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

It's better title than Levantino, but I don't think it looks very good with the slash. Also Valencian Spanish could be confused with Churro. Why don't you like Spanish language in Catalonia, Valencia and the Balearic Islands (or the Balearics)? — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 16:23, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

We could create links for Valencian Spanish and Catalan Spanish if you like (although Valencian Spanish should be a disambiguation page, because it could refer to other concepts) — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 16:27, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

What other concepts? i think is worth this entry. and as Mexican Spanish, or Venezuelan Spanish, this entry goes to the language and not for the people, and much more the Valencian due that Valencians and Catalans are Spanish. i still think that "Catalan/Valenciano Spanish" is more correct for the name of the article than links--Vvven (talk) 16:53, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Valencian Spanish (i.e. the variety of Spanish spoken in the Valencian Country) may refer to:

• Valencian (or Valencia(/Castellon/Alicante)) accent (mostly based on Castilian Spanish and spoken everywhere in the country)
• Churro dialect (spoken in inland central Valencia)
• Murcian Spanish (spoken in southern Alicante)

— Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 17:29, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

ok and what do you propose? (to be fair; and consistent with other related articles in wikipedia)--Vvven (talk) 17:33, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

I propose either a translation of the title used in the Catalan wiki, or the previous names I suggested. — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 17:51, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

A translation of the title used in the Catalan wiki is almost unavoidable if we want to give this page some credibility. --Jotamar (talk) 18:11, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Catalanyol, not because is not a mixed language. neither thinks i "Spanish language in Catalonia, Valencia and the Balearic Islands (or the Balearics)" seems to be the name to the portuguese or german in catalonia or valecian, and not shoould be like this because is a language that all people in that regions speaks, being co. official since 600 years old and native for much population in that regions named. It should be "Catalan / Balear / partially-Valenciano Spanish"--Vvven (talk) 18:09, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Jotamar you give no credibility beacuse you are Catalanist-biased. but is evidentment a dialect of Spanish that exist in East Spain, and is not a mixed language, just took words of a regional language, (same as Mexican, Puerto Rican, Venezuelan, Galician, ect)--Vvven (talk) 18:17, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

I have a growing suspicion that you have no clue about the linguistic situation in the Catalan-speaking area or in Spain. --Jotamar (talk) 18:58, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

I know, Catalonia has a native language, the Catalan that has spread into Valencia region, and Balearic Islands, Andorra and Roussillon in the Middle Ages, and the Spanish into Catalonia, Balearic and Valencia since first decades of Early Modern Ages, wathever the basied or not basied the history, today practically (+95%) sppeak, read, write both languages in that region, one of them it diference some the Valencian of Catalan, and it is a dialect, same as is some different this dialect of this article, of Castilian Spanish, and for this, not should be named like just a foreign language speak on this region, but a language of the two spoke by the people in this region--Vvven (talk) 19:20, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Still you know very little about the Catalan Countries if you don't know how to use some of our terms. Thanks for your participation Jotamar, how would you translate Característiques lingüístiques del castellà parlat per catalanòfons? — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 23:54, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps Features of Spanish as spoken by Catalan speakers. That's the best I can think of right now. --Jotamar (talk) 15:13, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

sure. (I'm really disagree with your apretiation), i said you all the general facts of the East Spain´s history, i spend times studying that fact. (and i think the Catalan Countries is just a given name by Catalans from Catalonia, for refer to Valencian Community and Balearic Islands. all autonomous communities that millions people feels Spanish. remember in these have both-official the Spanish and Catalan/Valencian and all people speak both every day).. i still think this is the best option "Catalan / Valencian / Balearic Spanish", due (one of the causes) is that in all dialects of Spanish, are called by English-speakers "Venezuelan Spanish", Colombian Spanish", "Mexican Spanish", "Maracucho Spanish", "LLanero Spanish", -see all end in spanish - --Vvven (talk) 19:15, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I doubt there are 95% of bilinguals. There are a lot of Spanish monolinguals or near-monolinguals, both in Catalonia and in the Valencian Community. The main issue here for me is this: the way Spanish is spoken by native Spanish speakers and by native Catalan speakers, even living side by side, is very different, too different to lump them together. --Jotamar (talk) 15:13, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

the way that Caracas Spanish is different to Maracucho Spanish, is too different, both have its accents, his modisms, and look at the mexican spanish, with hundred of Spanish words changed for Aztec words. and all still being Spanish Language, this occur much in many languages, as other language modify the language but without loss the structure, this neither happen here, this is clearly a dialect as others of the Spanish. and as such it should call [[(name) Spanish]]--Vvven (talk) 00:47, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

• You're all debating way too much based on way too few sources. The whole article is basically unsourced.
  I would be fine with the use of "Levantino" as the page title, if anyonw could bring us evidence supporting the use of "Levantino" for this variety of Castilian.
  Regarding the concept of the Levante (lit. "east"), "Levantino" might be a Castilian nickname given to fellow Castilian speakers who moved to the Levant (=East). The notion of Castilian-speakers moving to "the Levante" also might have been picked up ironically by Catalonian-speakers, possibly resulting in a use of "Llevantino" that reflects the perspective of Castilian-speakers, who came to "the East". All of this will have to be determined based on sources.
  Secondly, it is not even completely clear if there is a consistent variety or if there are only varing characteristics, given that Castilian speakers from all regions of Spain have moved to Catalonia, obviously showing characteristics of quite different Castilian varieties.
  though the Catalonian title "Característiques lingüístiques del castellà parlat per catalanòfons" is even more cautious in that it doesn't even assume a unique variety, the Spanish page title Variedad del idioma español en territorios catalanófonos however seems a good basis.
  Best regards, PanchoS (talk) 05:39, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

i could says that "Variety of Spanish language in Catalan-speakers territories" is acceptable due that certainly there a variety of the Spanish spoke by the mostly of population in that zone. Sirs, We could be accord?.--Vvven (talk) 06:07, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, that title is not acceptable for me. I'll try to explain my point more thoroughly:

• Catalan native speakers show some common traits when they speak Spanish, because of the interferences caused by their own language. Most of the traits described in this page correspond to that group.
• In addition to Catalan natives, and due mainly to immigration from the rest of Spain, there are a lot of Spanish native speakers in Catalonia, the Valencian Community and the Balearic Islands; in fact they are the majority in at least the first 2 communities, I'm not sure about Balears. These people speak basicly the dialects of their region of origin, or some kind of mixture of them; they can also have included a couple of Catalan words in their Spanish, but most of the traits described in this page are completely absent in their (our) Spanish. They never use velarized /l/, they don't pronounce final -d as [t], they don't have any [ʎ] in their phonetics, etc. etc.
• The Spanish WP page is ideologically biased: in the Spanish nationalistic view, Spanish is the national language, while Catalan is just a regional language. Therefore, in this view all regions in Spain must have their own dialect of the national language, and the huge differences between the Spanish spoken by natives of each language are dismissed and a blind eye is turned to them.
• In sum, this page should refer to Catalan speakers, not to Catalan territories, if we want to be objective. And it should include some sort of credible sources, which is not the case at the moment.

I hope things are clearer now. --Jotamar (talk) 15:35, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your explanation, and sorry, Jotamar that I indeed didn't get the article's scope quite right, probably because I was circling too much around the notion of "Levantino Spanish". I agree now that translating "Característiques lingüístiques del castellà parlat per catalanòfons" straight into English is the best we can do. Regards, PanchoS (talk) 22:53, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I traduce it, and it is a bit long the article name but if you think it might be the right, then it could be so: "Linguistic features of Spanish language spoken by Catalan-speakers" --Vvven (talk) 20:26, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

since nobody says anything now proceed to rename the article. has been a splash (un gustazo) discuss with you, gentlemens, VIVA ESP--Vvven (talk) 03:32, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Well obviously the change of title implies some changes in the article wording too. I'll make a few. --Jotamar (talk) 16:26, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I've made a first round of changes, but there are some statements that I don't understand well, so for the moment I'll wait for someone else to clarify them. --Jotamar (talk) 17:07, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Should we propose to delete the entry (redirect) "Levantino Spanish" for not being accurate or should we specify it could refer to Murcian, Manchego and this idiolect? — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 01:25, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

It's not a usual term, in fact I had never heard it before, so I would go for a deletion. --Jotamar (talk) 14:10, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

I've tried to clarify some of the points, after reading the Spanish and Catalan WP versions of this page. However, sources are still dearly needed. --Jotamar (talk) 16:34, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Rename (again)

Yes, I think this page should be renamed to "Catalan Spanish". The current title is a) very cumbersome and b) needlessly limiting. Spanish with a Catalan accent is not limited to people who have Catalan as their native language. There are many people rooted in Catalonia who were raised in Spanish, but only few of them will speak Spanish the way it is spoken in Castilia. They will always have a Catalan accent to some degree and probably also use catalanisms.
I have heard a lot of people speaking Dutch with Frisian or Limburgish accents and regionalisms. From my own experience, I know the heaviness of their accent tells nothing about whether or not they speak Frisian or Limburgish as their mother tongue. Indeed, those raised in Dutch by parents speaking regional languages have often the strongest accents. I think this will be no different with Catalan Spanish. Steinbach (talk) 06:47, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't know where you get your information about Catalonia, but as a long-time resident of the country I can confidently tell you that native Spanish speakers, even those born and raised in Catalonia, rarely have a noticeable Catalan accent, though they sometimes use a few Catalan loanwords in their Spanish. An exception might be those who have always lived in rural areas where Spanish is seldom heard, but that means a small minority at most. Notice that in the Barcelona metropolitan area Spanish is de facto the majority language. --Jotamar (talk) 00:14, 29 July 2021 (UTC)