Talk:Lionel Wilson (voice actor)

Untitled

Uh, he died after Courage's cancellation, so there is no way an episode can be dedicated to him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.203.131.117 (talk) 03:43, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Middle Name?

If anyone has located an authoritative source for the middle initial "G" and the middle name "Girard", please provide it. Otherwise, the name should be changed to just "Lionel Wilson".

In addition to his work doing voice-overs for Tom Terrific, Lionel Wilson appeared in four Broadway plays and some 25 other East coast professional stage productions, he wrote a dozen children’s books, he voiced or helped voice more than 100 audiobooks for children, and he did voice-overs for hundreds of other animated cartoons, both film and TV. I have examined the Broadway Playbills, the contemporary newspaper advertisements of and reviews for his stage appearances, the title pages of his books, the covers of many of his records, and the available copies of the animated cartoons that he voiced, including the Tom Terrific series. In every case he is identified and credited as “Lionel Wilson”, with no middle name or initial. His page in the 1946–1947 and 1954–55 editions of Theatre World do not have a middle initial. The 1955 Social Security record of his formal name change says that his changed name was “Lionel Wilson”. In personal conversations with both his long-time agent, Richard Seff, and the executor of his will, Ted Tinling, say that they never saw any case when he used a middle name or initial. Finally, in his recently-published autobiography “and also in the cast . . . ” he does not use a middle name or initial.

There are many Internet web pages that do give the middle initial, including IMDb, which says (incorrectly) that in some works he is credited as Lionel G. Wilson. But as far as I can tell, these web pages are all recent and unsourced, relying on one another rather than on primary sources.

A possible source of this confusion: The 1970 movie "The Landlord" credits the actor playing Bachelor Number One with the name "Lionel G. Wilson". But that character is played by a different actor, not the Lionel Wilson who is the subject of this Wikipedia page. JSaltzer (talk) 02:38, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 24 September 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved to Lionel Wilson (voice actor). (page mover nac) Flooded with them hundreds 15:55, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

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Lionel G. Wilson → Lionel Wilson – (See also the background discussion titled "Middle Name?" at Talk:Lionel G. Wilson, that I posted on 17 September 2018. So far there has been no response.)

This RM would remove the middle initial "G."from the title of the page about the stage and voice actor Lionel Wilson (1924-2003). The RM is not about changing to a name by which the subject is more commonly known, but rather about removing a middle initial that does not exist.

History On 2 August 2007 User:DextersLabFan created the subject page with the name "Lionel G. Wilson", citing no sources, so the source of the middle initial is unknown. On the same day the same contributor modified the dab page titled "Lionel Wilson" to include a link to the subject page.

On 12 August 2007 at 18:25 User:Lugnuts added an External link to the IMDb entry for "Lionel G. Wilson". That IMDb entry has since been renamed "Lionel Wilson". Lionel Wilson at IMDb

On 10 October 2012 User:Paper Luigi added the New York Times obituary as a source.Lionel Wilson, Who Gave Voice To Tom Terrific, Is Dead at 79 The NY Times, which is well-known for fact checking, did not use a middle initial.

On 4 April 2015 19:53 User:Carbone15 modified the page to say that the middle initial "G." stands for the middle name "Girard". There was no citation for this change. User:Carbone15 has since been blocked with an accusation of vandalism.

Other Lionel Wilsons At least seven public persons share the name "Lionel Wilson", three of which have separate Wikipedia pages, currently labeled on the dab page:

 Lionel Wilson (politician) 1915-1998, Oakland mayor
 Lionel Wilson (rugby union) 1933-2017, South African Rugby Player
 Lionel G. Wilson (1924-2003), voice actor

Four others are:

 Lionel G. Wilson, actor in the 1970 movie The Landlord
   https://www.imdb.com/name/nm6074891/ (with two incorrect credits)
 Lionel Wilson, Professor and volcano specialist, Lancaster (U.K.) University
   http://www.lancaster.ac.uk/lec/about-us/people/lionel-wilson
 Lionel Wilson, playing himself in the 2011-2013 TV Series After Lately
   http://www.tv.com/shows/after-lately/a-list-bff-1377659/
 Lionel D. Wilson, playing himself in a 2000 documentary Rhythm 'n' Bayous
   https://www.tvguide.com/movies/rhythm-n-bayous-a-road-map-to-louisiana-music/cast/135104/

Arguments for this change The primary argument for this change is prevalence in independent, reliable, recognized sources per WP:UCRN. In addition to the NY Times obituary the following independent and presumably reliable sources, all give his name with no middle initial:

• Obituary: "Lionel Wilson, Actor-writer, voiced Tom Terrific on 'Captain Kangaroo'". Variety. 6 May 2003. Retrieved 19 September 2018. Note that even though it is customary in obituaries to provide the full name of the decedent, neither this obituary nor the one in the NY Times used a middle initial.

• Rowan, Terry. Character-Based Film Series, Part I. p. 97.

• Brooks, Tim; Marsh, Earle F. (1992). The Complete Directory to Prime Time Network and Cable TV Shows, 1946–Present. p. 28 & p. 290.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location (link) CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)

• Hawes, William (2001). Live Television Drama, 1946–1951. p. 280.

• Terrace, Vincent (2013). Television Specials: 5336 Entertainment Programs, 1936–2012. p. 62, 63, & pp. 72–74.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location (link) CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)

• McCall, Douglas L. (1998). Film Cartoons : a guide to 20th century American animated features and shorts. p. 196, 202, & 210.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location (link) CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)

(At least snippets of each of the five books above can be examined at Google Books by first searching for the title and then searching within the book for "Lionel Wilson".)

• Blum, Daniel, ed. (1947). "Lionel Wilson". Theatre World 1946–47: 196. and "Lionel Wilson". Theatre World 1954–55: 219. 1955.

• The title pages of a dozen children's books written by Lionel Wilson and the covers of about 100 audiobooks that he narrated or helped narrate also all agree. See "Books by Lionel Wilson". Retrieved 19 September 2018. and "Wilson, Lionel > Audiobook". WorldCat. Retrieved 19 September 2018.

• In addition to sources already listed, as of 23 September 2018 the Lionel G. Wilson page contains some 25 citations of newspaper play notices and play reviews published between 1936 and 1969, all of which give his name without a middle name or initial.

A secondary argument for the change is from the WP:AT goals:

• Recognizable–appears in film credits, book title pages, advertisements of plays, and reviews of plays
• Natural–same reason
• Precision–assuming disambiguation by birth/death date and occupation
• Concise–name is no longer than necessary
• Consistency–matches his legal name

Why such a strong and detailed argument? There are numerous on-line web pages that mention the voice actor using the middle initial, and they may seem to support a prevalence argument against the proposed move. But every example I have located is since his death and unsourced, which leads one to suspect that they have all been derived from one another or from the incorrect Wikipedia page rather than from authoritative sources. For this reason, counts of the number of Google hits that use the initial are not a significant indicator.

Other implications 1. There is also a WikiData page for "Lionel G. Wilson". that needs adjustment and from which the subject page may import some information. However, its revision history goes back only to 17 January 2013, so it is not clear when or how it acquired the middle initial.

2. On the subject page we also need to eliminate the corresponding non-existent middle name "Girard". — JSaltzer (talk) 02:41, 24 September 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Dreamy Jazz 🎷 ^{talk to me | my contributions} 20:13, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose "Lionel Wilson was" test in Gbooks shows massively that the first black Oakland mayor and the Springboks player are more notable. GBooks has one hit each for Lionel G and Lionel Wilson (voice actor), so neutral on (voice actor). In ictu oculi (talk) 08:40, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Amendment I agree with In ictu oculi that the Oakland mayor and the Springboks player are more notable than the voice actor and per MOS:DABORDER I did not intend to capture the name "Lionel Wilson" for the voice actor nor to suggest a change in the order they are listed on the dab page. I intended only to rename the voice actor's page to eliminate the erroneous middle initial. I thus offer the following amendment: the requested name change should be from "Lionel G. Wilson" to "Lionel Wilson (voice actor)" with unchanged dab page order. JSaltzer (talk) 15:44, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
• Move to Lionel Wilson (voice actor) per IIO and nom. —BarrelProof (talk) 19:19, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. Lionel G. Wilson was subject's professional name/stage name and the online credits of virtually all animation series for which he provided voices, such as the end credits of Courage the Cowardly Dog, bill him as "Lionel G." It is indisputable that, unlike actors such as Edward G. Robinson, Leo G. Carroll or John C. Reilly who would be unrecognizable without their middle initials, subject had been frequently referenced as simply "Lionel Wilson". Ultimately, however, main headers of actors' biographical entries should reflect their professional name form: James Stewart, not Jimmy Stewart.    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 03:31, 26 September 2018 (UTC)sswdw
  • Response to Roman Spinner. Agree that main headers of actors' biographical entries should reflect their professional name form, and that is exactly what this proposed rename would do. Your opposition does not cite authoritative source for your claim that "the end credits of Courage the Cowardly Dog, bill him as 'Lionel G.' ". I claim that those end credits bill him as "Lionel Wilson" with no middle initial, as shown by this authoritative citation: the YouTube video "Courage The Cowardly Dog - Credits (HD)". at 0:07 to 0:09. Here are a few other on-line examples of credits to Lionel Wilson with no initial:
    • "Playbill/Fragile Fox - cast". (1954 play).
    • "TOM TERRIFIC and MIGHTY MANFRED Lionel Wilson". The printed credit is at the bottom of the album cover (1957 record).
    • "The World of Hans Christian Andersen". at 3:04 - 3:13 (1968 animated cartoon).
    • "Braingames". at 9:04 (1984 animated cartoon)
    • "Clifford the big red dog". (1988 audiobook).  . . . JSaltzer (talk) 19:17, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
• Support per nomination and per admirably detailed research which provides convincing proof that Lionel Wilson was, indeed, credited without the middle initial "G." I am striking my previous "oppose" vote and replacing it with this "support" vote for Lionel Wilson (voice actor).    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 20:51, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
• Support alternative move to Lionel Wilson (voice actor) per above. Paintspot Infez (talk) 02:31, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Support this suggestion because there has not been a credible example of the middle initial "G" being mentioned. I agree that Lionel Wilson (voice actor) would be a better title for the article than Lionel Wilson because although this Lionel Wilson is indeed notable, he is not exceptionally notable enough to be the most notable Lionel Wilson. Paper Luigi ^{T • C} 07:43, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support move to Lionel Wilson (voice actor) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.126.81.6 (talk) 16:46, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support alternative move to Lionel Wilson (voice actor) for the reasons already given by others. Narky Blert (talk) 10:52, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Body donation may not be verified.

An edit on 22 February 2021 by User:MRSoftee adds to the section on Lionel Wilson's death the words "His body was donated to medical science.", together with a citation to Wilson's entry at FindAGrave and, to the External Links section, a link to FindAGrave.

About a month after Wilson's death, a contributor named "Laurie" appears to have created the FindAGrave record for Wilson. That record includes the note “Burial: Body donated to medical science, Specifically: New York University.” More recently, an unknown contributor added a similar note to the "Trivia" section for Lionel Wilson at IMDb. Neither of these contributors cited a source for the information. I am guessing that the source for the IMDb entry may have been the FindAGrave record.

Friends of Wilson have told me that Wilson's body was cremated and, in a private ceremony, his ashes were interred in the Catskill mountains of upstate New York. On the chance that the FindAGrave report might have been based on an organ donation I inquired of a friend who had access to a copy of Wilson's will. The reply was that it contains no indication of an organ donation.

Since the reports from Wilson's friends directly contradict the unsourced FindAGrave report, I think it safest that User:MrSoftee's additions to Wilson's Wikipedia page be reversed pending discovery of citable information from a reliable source, for example from the New York University School of Medicine. On that basis I have done the reversal. I did not add any discussion of the contradiction since citations to private communications are not useful in Wikipedia and anyway would be deprecated by WP:NOR. JSaltzer (talk) 05:08, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Did Lionel Wilson voice Mala Khan in the video "The Secret of Mulan"?

An edit on 10 May 2023 by an anonymous user changed the words "voicing unidentified characters" to "voicing Mala Khan", but did not include a citation for this detail. Since the edit lacked a citation I reverted the edit with a summary that explained that the fact may be correct but it should have a citation of a reliable source. On 13 May 2023 an anonymous user with a different IP address (but perhaps the same user) manually reverted my reversion, but still did not provide a citation. Rather than starting WP:EDITWAR I appeal to the anonymous editor to explain the basis for the detail.

The article cites the YouTube video of "The Secret of Mulan" and in that video the credits at 49:01 list the names of the voice actors but not the characters they voice.

A Google search for "Mala Khan", "Mulan", and "Wilson" leads to about a dozen web pages that list the names of the voice actors in this movie, but I found only one that offers the identity of the character voiced by Wilson: the Fandom wiki "villains.fandom.com/wiki/Mala-Khan". That wiki page was created on 5 June 2018 by user "Super Poison Ivy", who once was a prolific Fandom editor but has not recently been active. Unfortunately, her posting does not provide a source and there is no bio that describes her expertise. The lack of a source plus the problem that Fandom is a wiki to which anyone may post means that it does not serve as a reliable source as defined in WP:RELIABLE.

If the anonymous editor can provide a reliable source his or her edit would be welcomed. JSaltzer (talk) 03:30, 15 May 2023 (UTC)