Talk:Lisburn

Origin of name

The town was known as Lisnagarvey until it was burned to the ground in 1641. In the years afterwards it became known as "Lisburn", as a reference to the fire. I have this on good authority from a prominent local historian. It's nothing to do with the Ulster-Scots word "burn" or "stream". See "Voices from the Street: Bridge Street and the Quay of Lisburn", published by Lisburn City Council in 2006. --Tireoghain2 15:39, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, in July 2011 I added the following to the article:

The origin of the town's current name is uncertain. The modern spelling Lisburn first appears in a January 1662 entry in the church records. After February 1662, the name Lisnagarvy is no longer found in the records. It is commonly believed that the town was renamed after being burnt during the Irish Rebellion of 1641. In his book Lisburn Cathedral and Its Past Rectors (1926), Rev W P Carmody argues "This seems to be most improbable; after twenty years the burning would be a memory, and the loyal people of the town would not be disposed to give it a name that would be forever reminiscent of its destruction by rebels". There is evidence that the name existed even at the time of the rebellion. In the depositions concerning the rebellion, an English soldier stated on 9 June 1653 that the rebels entered the town of Lisnagarvy at "a place called Louzy Barne". Carmody believes that, in the town's early days, there were two co-existing ringforts: Lisnagarvy to the north and Lisburn to the south. He suggests that both names come from Irish and concludes: "Lisburn, being shorter and more easily pronounced by the English settlers, became the familiar name and Lisnagarvey gradually dropped out".

If Lisburn does come from an Irish name, what is that name? What has been suggested?

The entry for Lisburn at the Placenames Database of Ireland givs Lios na Bruidhne and Lios Uí Bhroin as possible origins, but it doesn't tell us anything else.

On Google Books I found the following extract from the book Irish Haiku (2005) by Christopher John Arthur:

In fact, any connections made between the burn in the town's name and the blazes that twice destroyed it, is entirely spurious. This point is emphasized by Adrian Room in his Dictionary of Irish Place Names. The name Lisburn is, he says, "almost certainly entirely Irish." Two derivations can be identified: Although Lios na Bearnan ('ring fort of the gap') is…

I'm not able to read beyond that. If anyone can, or if you can get a hold of either Irish Haiku or Dictionary of Irish Place Names, could you tell us what is written? ~Asarlaí 00:06, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

City Status

I feel that the reference to the Belfast-Dublin Corridor is inaccurate. The majority of people would view Newry as the third city in that trio rather than Lisburn. This should be amended. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.123.185.230 (talk) 14:21, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

While I understand that Lisburn has official city status from the Queen, does anyone agree that it would be reasonable for us to add that most people regard it as a town, or an extension of Belfast? (The same goes to Newry and Armagh) Jonto 21:28, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Well, Lisburn is part of the BUMA (Belfast Urban Metropolitan Area) or Greater Belfast, it technically is part of Belfast in a sense. But it dos have city status. Jvlm.123 17:57, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Definitely a city, www.lisburncity.gov.uk Djegan 19:23, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe that most people do regard it as a town actually.

I've reverted the changes to the article that removed any mention of city status. It is a city, but I've added a line to say that most regard it as a town due to its size. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 08:04, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Speaking as someone living in Belfast. Most regard it as a suburb of belfast and find it's city status pretty laughable.Goblinman (talk) 16:08, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I've updated the article to make it more relavent to Lisburn City, personally when someone says Lisburn I think 1st The town, 2nd The council and 3rd The city. I grew up in what is now called Lisburn City, which many still refer to as Lisburn borough. When I say Lisburn I would always mean the town, not the administritive area! Maybe I am too close to the problem, and the rest of the world sees the council area as the more importnat of the two entities. I posted a bit on diambiguation at the bottom of this page, but no-one responded to it. Fasach Nua 19:08, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

On an aside the Strabane article is about Strabane town, not Strabane district council area and Craigavon is about Craigavon town, not Craigavon council area, maybe we should look at some uniformity Fasach Nua 20:20, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Teen Talk!

Is this relevant:

Lisburn is home to a large youth population. The constant expansions to the "Bow Street Mall" make the mall a hotspot for youth, as well as the multiscreen "Omliplex" and "Leisureplex". Popular youth "hangout" spots include Duncan's Dam, and Castle Gardens

Or even accurate?

Gerry Lynch 17:11, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

I don't suppose that matters. Considering that most places on the island of Ireland are made up of around 25% of people being under 16 years. Sure in Dublin, 50% of the population is said to be under 25. 08:22, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Police - it's not HQ for Belfast Region

No evidence that Lisburn police station is the HQ for Belfast Region. The PSNI website mentions the Lisburn DCU (District Command Unit), but Belfast is split in East, West, South and North Belfast DCUs ... each with non-Lisburn base stations.

Lisburn police state = hq for Lisburn DCU = no surprise, so not worth mentioning. Reference to police station removed. AMe 23:26, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Wallace

Can't remember the details from primary school, but wasn't Wallace Park named after someone who had a big influence over the town? Maybe someone can add in the details. AMe 23:26, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Sir Richard Wallace, invented the Potato Waffle, another brilliant example of ingenuity from the vast collection of intellectuals in Lisburn 'City'. :-)

Disambiguation

I find this article confusing, there is:

1. Lisburn Town - which is the market town

and

1. Lisburn city - which is the council area, which encompasses the town plus many non-trivial villages, such as Moira, Dunmurry and Hillsborough

and from reading the artile, I couldn't tell which of the two this article is meant to refer to, does anyone else have any thoughts on this? Fasach Nua 19:32, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

20% nationalist population

Looking at the figures for "20%[3] nationalist population" its more a matter of faith than statistics. Ultimately whilst its easy to assume SDLP+SF=20% we do not know if these people are nationalist or not, simply that they vote for broadly nationalist based parties; indeed Alliance polled around 10% and these people could represent nationalist or unionist traditions but not align themselves with the more extreme viewpoints on either side. Indeed its the sentence at large that troubles me, viz "a decision which has angered many of the city's 20% nationalist population"; do we know if these people even care if the Union Flag is flown all year round. Fundementally if the sentence cannot be reasonably citied as a whole then its not fit for inclusion at all; the citation does not reach WP:VERIFY and is potentially in violation of WP:NOR as we are interpreting the conscience of voters by voting pattern. Djegan 13:36, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

In addition to the highly salient points raised above, is the fact that these statistics are based upon an electoral population. The electoral population of Lisburn, differs significantly from the city’s general population, and as such the figures cited are completely erroneous, especially given the context in which they are used !!!

So, do you have any trouble with the 'unionist' population? How do you support the claim that it is a predominantly unionist town, even if many people vote for unionist parties? How do you know if these people are unionist or not? Or does this logic just apply to the nationalist population? 86.42.119.12 (talk) 03:30, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Museum

No mention of the Irish Linen Museum!? --Ulster Linen (talk) 11:49, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Proposed Northern Ireland Wiki Meetup

A Wikimeet is proposed for Northern Ireland in the next few months. If you have never been to one, this is an opportunity to meet other Wikipedians in an informal atmosphere for Wiki and non-Wiki related chat and for beer or food if you like. Most take place on a Sunday afternoon in a suitable pub but other days and locations can also work. Experienced and new contributors are all welcome. This event is definitely not restricted just to discussion of Northern Ireland topics. Please add your suggestions for place and date to the discussion page here: Proposed Northern Ireland Wiki Meetup. Philafrenzy (talk) 22:13, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

This is a reminder to please add any views you may have to the project page linked above. Thanks. Philafrenzy (talk) 08:38, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Population growth

Is there any explanation as to why the city's population nearly trebled between 1991 and 2011? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.155.226.3 (talk) 13:45, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Good question. The answer is that the figures weren't comparing like for like. The figures for 1991 and 1981 seem to have been solely for Lisburn Urban Area. The figures for 2001 and 2011 were for Lisburn local government district, which covers a much wider area. I've amended the figures for 1991 and 1981 to reflect the census for the current "Lisburn City" area. Valenciano (talk) 17:49, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

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Name in Irish Language

I have just undone an edit made by an unregistered user, who deletes the Irish language name for "Lisburn" on the ground that the Irish language name suggested is not a translation of "Lisburn". Actually there is a well written explanation of the naming issue in the article, on which I rely to justify my undo. I have asked the editor in my edit summary not to revert again without entering in to discussion here. Other editors (of course) very welcome to chip in.

Daithidebarra (talk) 19:06, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Te same unregistered user (ie same IP address ) undid my edit earlier today, without any discussion here. Another editor has now intervened, and reverted to my version. For which thanks. In the meantime I have now placed a formal request for discussion on that user's talk page.

Daithidebarra (talk) 18:03, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

I actually agree with the IP editor on this one. Even the name section says what the town was originally called, and this isn't what's in the infobox. It may have been derived from that name, but that doesn't mean it's the Irish name for Lisburn. The Irish Name field should contain the Irish Name not something that it may have originally derived from. Canterbury Tail talk 01:58, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

I explicitly explained to the IP editor at Talk:Hillsborough, County Down the manual of style in regards to this issue as well as links that show what is regarded as the "official" Irish name of places north and south are considered to be (click here for evidence for Lisburn), and going by [1] it appears that the "Lis" of Lios na gCearrbhach) is incorporated in Lisburn. So the IP is in the wrong on all accounts. Mabuska ^(talk) 22:55, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

For some reason the editor keeps adding an old defunct name for Lisburn that has not been used since 1620 ad it is not an official Irish name or translation of lisburn so must be being added for a disruptive or political reason I am only interested in facts and that is that there is no Irish translation or name for lisburn — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.7.125.216 (talk) 08:29, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

For some reason it has taken for the two articles in question to have IP editing indefinitely blocked for you to finally engage in the proper place for discussion and disputes. Making allegations about user intentions when you clearly have no clue on the issue you are arguing about also doesn't help. If anyone was being disruptive it was you ignoring the discussions opened up and explanations given to you already especially at the Hillsborough article. If you wish to keep ignoring all that then why should I repeat it here for you know? Mabuska ^(talk) 14:36, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

This is also a discussion at Talk:Hillsborough, County Down which is both relevant and explains that an Irish name for a place in Ireland need not be a translation of an English language name for a place, and indeed, often enough, is not.Daithidebarra (talk) 15:30, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

Once again I find I must make it clear that there is no Irish name for Lisburn you are using the Irish original when even the anglicized version lisnagarvey has not been the name used since 1620 as Irish is the first language of a quarter of a percent of the population of Northern Ireland this addition of a name not used from the 1500's seems very strange , the reason you refuse to put up the direct translation for lisburn is Because there isn't one and the Irish name for lisburn is defunct for 500 to 600 years old , I also live in lisburn where there is no recorded residents who use Irish as their first language or even recognise the Irish version of the longer used Lisnagarvey or the official name Lisburn , perhaps you should also add the ulsterscots name , Latin , proto Celtic names and beyond — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.104.12.20 (talk) 10:13, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Once more with spurious false allegations based on one's own personal unsupportable POV. And to think I have been accused of being a loyalist by republican editors.

Let's see if we can make this crystal clear for you:

• Of course there is no direct literal translation of Lisburn because there does not need to be one. A language can call anywhere whatever it wants regardless of what it is called in another language, and in regards to Irish they tend to use the original Irish name of the place before it was changed. Prime examples along with Lisburn include: "Baile na Croise" (Ballynacross) instead of Draperstown and "Sean Mullach" (Shanemullagh) instead of Castledawson. Ballynacross is an old name used for the cross-roads prior to the foundation of Draperstown in the 1810's, whilst Shanemullagh is the townland Castledawson was founded in just like Lisnagarvey is the townland that Lisburn was founded in. In contrast Newtownhamilton, which was founded in the townland of Tullyvallan is known in Irish as "An Baile Úr" meaning "the New Town", meaning it is literal translation of the first half of the English name. Another literal translation example is Randalstown, which was founded in the townland of Ardmore but is known in Irish as "Baile Raghnaill". Is it consistent? No. Does it have to be? No. But are all these names reliably sourced as being the Irish forms of these places? Yes!
• Just because you live there and according to you no-one speaks it in Lisburn doesn't mean the place does not have an Irish form of its name. I don't know how many Irish speakers live in China but it also has an Irish name, "an tSin".
• If you have the Scots form of Lisburn then by all means add it in, preferably with sources, though the "burn" part itself is from Scots so Lisburn is quite possibly the Ulster-Scots form as well as it is. Suggesting Latin and proto-Celtic is simply idiocy.
• So Lisnagarvey hasn't been used since the 1500's? And has been defunct for 500 to 600 years? Considering the name spelt as "Lisnagarvy" is recorded in the 1659 Census (358 years ago) shoots that argument out of the water and shows how much you know on the topic.
• Indeed for someone from Lisburn you should obviously know that the local GAA club, St. Patrick's GAC Lisburn, is called what in Irish? Oh yes that's right: Naomh padraig, Lois na gCearrbhach. Don't believe me, here's the Antrim GAA link for them and here is the clubs own website, its also clearly part of their club badge. They were founded in 1965, which also proves that the name is not defunct as you claim.
• Indeed according to Logainm, "Lios na gCearrbhach" is the validated Irish name for Lisburn. Who or what is Logainm? A department of the Republic of Ireland's Department of Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, tasked with rediscovering, recovering and validating the Irish forms of all places on the island of Ireland. That makes it pretty much as official as you can get.

Your credibility on this issue has been shown to be non-existent, which is no surprise considering you have provided no evidence to contradict the above sites and official authority on the subject, and no surprise considering your viewpoint is based on simple bigotry against the Irish language. Mabuska ^(talk) 14:00, 22 May 2017 (U

Again a biggoted agenda being hidden , if Any language can call it anything why pick Irish a long defunct language why not put up polish there are more polish speakers in northern Ireland than the southern Irish dialect you constantly post

If you can't be bothered reading the responses which explains how you are wrong on all counts, then discussion is over no matter how much you cry. The only one with a bigoted agenda is yourself. Mabuska ^(talk) 15:40, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Coat of arms

For what it's worth, I've put together an SVG graphic of the coat of arms of Lisburn after the city's website:

No supporters, motto, or crest, obviously, just the scutcheon. Don't know if you want to include it, but it's there. Solidarity, Q·L·1968 ☿ 00:00, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Is this the actual coat of arms for Lisburn? I have noted there appears to be official ones and then Roman Catholic based/inspired ones for counties and places in Ireland. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:25, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

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Population again

I'm considering updating Lisburn's population to 2011 census figures. I'm pinging @Valenciano: here because of the edits in 2014 regarding population.

The population given in the lede, 71,465, reflects a 2001 census figure for Lisburn Urban Area. The figure in the Infobox, 120,465, is likely for the Local Government District in 2001. In the 2011 census NISRA records there are three Lisburn figures: one for Local Government District (120,165), one for City Settlement (45,370) and one for Metropolitan Settlement (31,186). For example the City Settlement figure is here. I propose to update the population to the City Settlement one. The scope of the Local Government District is too large and I believe the scope of the Metropolitan Settlement is too small. NISRA gives an overall table of urban populations (Settlements) for 2011 here (use Usual Resident Population). On Page 5, it lists Lisburn City at 45,370 (the City Settlement figure).

The effect of this will be to drop Lisburn's place in the overall table of Northern Ireland settlements from 3rd to perhaps 8th. So there may be some controversy with this change. I've been updating populations for other towns in Northern Ireland to NISRA Census 2011 figures and I believe that NISRA numbers (rather than those from a Council) represent the most reliable source. Interested to hear others' thoughts on this. Thanks Declangi (talk) 08:00, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

City settlement. The idea that places like Moira, Hillsborough and Glenavy, let alone Poleglass and Twinbrook, were part of a "Lisburn city" was always dubious. The idea of Dundonald being part of that even more so. Valenciano (talk) 13:43, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

 Done Declangi (talk) 08:26, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

If you keep changing the areas covered, you really should not show percentage changes 18:35, 26 January 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C6:148A:9B01:CD69:E73A:42D7:5975 (talk)

The Burnings 1920

Trying to keep this concise. (1) War of Independence is mentioned in the proceeding section. (2) Ret. Brigadier General Pain, even though given command of troops, appears at the time to have been RIC Divisional Commander. While he was absolutely a UVF man (Craig's righthand man as Chief of Staff), is their evidence that in August 1920 he was an active "UVF leader? (3) It is an inference that the failure to pursue special constables was the result of the threatened resignations, but Lawlor suggests there were other pressures and considerations in the decision. Can't the connection be left to the reader. Cheers. ManfredHugh (talk)

Some of your changes to this section are fine, but other changes made the wording less concise and introduced too many long-drawn-out sentences. On your first point: the War of Independence and events of 1920 should be mentioned before events of 1922, so I've moved them into chronological order. I've also moved the March assassination of MacCurtain and the August assassination of Swanzy back into chronological order. On your second point: Lawlor says on page 120 that "Hacket Pain was one of the leaders of the UVF", and the same wording was used in this article. However, Lawlor doesn't say whether his UVF involvement ended or if it continued after the war. Other sources suggest he was replaced, so I'm happy to use "former UVF leader". ~Asarlaí 22:57, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Asalai, That's fine, thanks. I am not sure that the discussion of Nicholson's Commemoration on the day of British withdrawal from Dublin (which is emblematic of the local unionist response to partition), and the dedication of the Victory Memorial, sits well under the section heading "From town to city". Maybe the two paragraphs can have their own heading. Regards ManfredHugh (talk)

Without altering the chronological order in which you have rearranged things, I have put the Burnings and the Richardson commemoration (both of which can be seen as part of a local response to the War of Independence) together under one heading The Burnings and Partition. Small matter: but given that he was pursued from Cork to Lisburn to avenge the death of Mac Curtain, as a matter of economy do we have to state that Swanzy was moved to Lisburn for his own safety? Wouldn't that be the inference. But, anyway, put it back if you think it important.ManfredHugh (talk)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 April 2023

Update the population to the 2021 figure - 51,452 2A02:C7C:621B:7C00:CD86:4F92:B93C:8281 (talk) 09:06, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. M.Bitton (talk) 11:33, 6 April 2023 (UTC)