Talk:List of ArmaLite rifles

Untitled

Added the AR-17, someone else can add the source to forgotten weapons and https://guns.fandom.com/wiki/ArmaLite_AR-17 too drunk and haven't used this site in over a decade. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.183.17.173 (talk) 22:49, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on List of ArmaLite rifles. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140107195208/http://www.nramuseum.org/the-museum/the-galleries/ever-vigilant/case-67-modern-conflicts-vietnam-desert-storm/armalite-ar-10-semi-automatic-rifle.aspx to http://www.nramuseum.org/the-museum/the-galleries/ever-vigilant/case-67-modern-conflicts-vietnam-desert-storm/armalite-ar-10-semi-automatic-rifle.aspx

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 10:38, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

AR-15

The AR-15 is a semi Automatic Rifle due to it having no selector switch and firing only one shot per pull of the trigger, to say it is a Assault Rifle is misleading and dangerous. lets come to a consensus that addresses this issue so we can stop arguing. i am not disputing that it is the predecessor of the M-16 Which is a assault Rifle, what i am Disputing is the labeling of it being a Assault rifle when it clearly is a Semi-Automatic Rifle, by every weapons encyclopedia, every gun manufacturer, the US government and even ArmaLite rifles definition. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MoldyOne (talk • contribs) 18:52, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Pinging recent active users @RAF910, BilCat, and Limpscash:

General reminder to everyone and no one in particular:

• Assume good faith from other parties (they're just trying to help in their own way, even if they disagree with you).
• Disruptive edit warring is not vandalism, but I can still block for it (do not make me put my lunch down again!).
• Cite professionally-published mainstream academic or journalistic sources for suggested changes.

Ian.thomson (talk) 18:59, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

MoldyOne is wrong...see this 3 minute and 47 second video https://www.forgottenweapons.com/explaining-the-ar-safety-lever-design-video/ --RAF910 (talk) 19:14, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Actually, he even stated in the video the AR-15 is a semi automatic rifle (that the switch was changed on the prototypes that later became the M-16, not the AR-15), as do these articles:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/20/us/ar-15-owners.html

https://www.nssf.org/msr/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2018/02/15/4-basic-questions-about-the-ar-15/?utm_term=.3065f2734e80

https://www.npr.org/2018/02/28/588861820/a-brief-history-of-the-ar-15

as does the Semi-Automatic Rifle Wikipedia Page

The Assault Weapons Wikipedia Page

The definition of a Semi-Automatic Rifle is it fires one shot per pull of the trigger and is not capable of Automatic Fire

MoldyOne (talk) 19:25, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

::::@MoldyOne: ArmaLite AR-15 rifles are assault rifles, not Semi-Automatic rifles. Sincerely, TintedFate 19:49, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

@TintedFate The Prototype was a Assault Rifle, the production model was and is still a Semi-Automatic Rifle, everything that has been provided states it, including @RAF90 's video which states it is a Semi-Automatic Rifle because it only shoots one shot per pull of the trigger.

MoldyOne (talk) 20:00, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

::::::@MoldyOne: It says in the article, "A lightweight assault rifle designed to be manufactured with the extensive use of aluminium and synthetic materials. Sincerely, TintedFate 20:05, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

@TintedFate: that description is wrong and goes against every piece of evidence given, all 5 articles given state it is a Semi-Automatic Rifle (even at 38 seconds in RAF90's video). the description is wrong and needs to be changed to reflect the facts (thats what has caused this issue because i keep changing it to Semi-Automatic Rifle and they keep reverting it and reported me for Vandalism

MoldyOne (talk) 20:09, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

::::::::@MoldyOne: The page even has "assault rifles" as a category! For my biggest piece of evidence, go here:[1] Sincerely, TintedFate 20:12, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

@TintedFate: please look at these pages:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArmaLite_AR-15 Second and third paragraph states "In 1959, ArmaLite sold its rights to the AR-10 and AR-15 to Colt due to financial difficulties.[5] After modifications (most notably, the charging handle was re-located from under the carrying handle like AR-10 to the rear of the receiver),[6] Colt rebranded it the Colt ArmaLite AR-15. Colt marketed the redesigned rifle to various military services around the world and it was subsequently adopted by the U.S. military as the M16 rifle, which went into production in March 1964.[4][7]

Colt continued to use the AR-15 trademark for its line of semi-automatic-only rifles marketed to civilian and law-enforcement customers, known as Colt AR-15. The Armalite AR-15 is the parent of a variety of Colt AR-15 & M16 rifle variants."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15_style_rifle States "An AR-15 style rifle is a lightweight semi-automatic rifle based on the Colt AR-15 design"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15_(disambiguation) lists several models of the AR-15 and states they are semi-Automatic Rifles

These articles, the Video linked by RAF90 and the previous articles i linked show that it is not a Assault Rifle but is actually a Semi-Automatic Rifle

MoldyOne (talk) 20:19, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

::::::::::@MoldyOne: I believe we are discussing the original AR-15 rifle by ArmaLite, which was an assault rifle. You are referring to the Colt AR-15 Rifle. They are 2 different things. Sincerely, TintedFate 20:21, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

@TintedFate: we are Discussing the AR-15, not the prototype, that was a assault Rifle, there can be 100 prototypes but the model and design that matters is the one that makes it into production, which the AR-15 production model was Semi-Automatic and the Assault Rifle version was named the M-16. if it wants to add to it that the prototype was a Assault Rifle but the production model is a Semi-Automatic Rifle, that is a acceptable compromise to me. but it is a Semi-Automatic Rifle, all evidence states that and it cant be denied when everyone wants sources, i provide sources and even show where other peoples sources state it is a Semi-Automatic Rifle

MoldyOne (talk) 20:26, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

::::::::::::@MoldyOne: You are discussing the Colt variant, a semi-auto, while we are talking about the original ArmaLite version, an assault rifle. The title of the article is "List of ArmaLite rifles", not "List of Colt rifles". Please read before jumping to wild conclusions. Sincerely, TintedFate 20:28, 4 April 2018 (UTC) :::::::::::::@RAF910, BilCat, Limpscash, MoldyOne, and Ian.thomson: When will this discussion end? Sincerely, TintedFate 20:32, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

I have offered a compromise and you are not looking at the evidence provided, The Prototype was a Assault Rifle because it could fire more then one shot per pull of the trigger (which became the M-16), the production model was, and still is a Semi-Automatic Rifle because it was designed for Civilian and law Enforcement and per law, they could not sell a Fully Automatic Rifle to the public

MoldyOne (talk) 20:35, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::@RAF910, BilCat, Limpscash, MoldyOne, and Ian.thomson: Why don't we just put "assault/semi-automatic rifle"? It's a good compromise. Sincerely, TintedFate 20:37, 4 April 2018 (UTC).

I am willing to go that route though i think having a disclaimer that states the Prototype was a Assault Rifle but Production model is Semi-Automatic Rifle would be better and much more clear

MoldyOne (talk) 20:39, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

• I'm only here as an administrator. Ian.thomson (talk) 20:40, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::::Sounds like a good idea if we do both. Supporting. Sincerely, TintedFate 20:41, 4 April 2018 (UTC) ::::::::::::::::::@RAF910, BilCat, Limpscash, MoldyOne, and Ian.thomson: Me and Moldy have reached a consensus. Sincerely, TintedFate 20:44, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

I will let @TintedFate: do the edit so there isnt a issue with me doing it again and my apologies for not knowing how to start this discussion.

::::::::::::::::::::@RAF910, BilCat, Limpscash, MoldyOne, and Ian.thomson: Compromise has been implemented. @MoldyOne: Apology accepted. Sincerely, TintedFate 20:53, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

• The ArmaLite AR-15 is not and has never been a semi-auto-only rifle. It is a machinegun, it is a select-fire assault rifle http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/343778.pdf . It is not the same as the Colt AR-15, you are confusing the two rifles. The ArmaLite AR-15 was in production for over 6 years before the U.S. military adopted the M16 rifle.--RAF910 (talk) 21:00, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

::@RAF910: Oh come on! Do we need to start this discussion again?!?! Sincerely, TintedFate 21:02, 4 April 2018 (UTC) :::@Ian.thomson: Can you protect the page? Sincerely, TintedFate 21:08, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Its been shown it was in prototype testing stage, that is not the same as production, on page 9 section 4b it states "the weapon and its ammunition have undergone extensive engineering and service testing" meaning it was not in production, it was in prototype stage MoldyOne (talk) 21:10, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

yes please, put it on protect until we can sort this out MoldyOne (talk) 21:10, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) There's no reason to protect the page. RAF910's not reverting (he's at 3 reverts), and consensus should try to involve feedback from all editors involved (which means not me, because I'm just adminning).

My recommendation:

1. gather as many sources as y'all can on the subject (again, academic and journalistic sources generally carry more weight than enthusiast sites)
2. discuss which ones should be excluded, for reasons such as "this source would not be appropriate in an academic work," or "this source is about a different (if similar) product."
3. sort the remaining between "assault rifle," "semi-automatic rifle," and "both," and then see how that stacks up.

No original research, let the sources speak for themselves. Ian.thomson (talk) 21:17, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

I think RAF90 has shown why it was in prototype stage and not production already with his links. and i am arguing that prototype stage does not mean production model and only production model should be considered, i thought we had a good compromise with the change and note but I guess not. the military goes through many prototypes (which is what this was originally for) before it finds a final model design it likes, and all ArmaLite (and Colt) did was make some changes to open up more markets) MoldyOne (talk) 21:23, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

::::::Someone add this into the lamest edit war list. Sincerely, TintedFate 21:28, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

lets list information given here first and why it supports the current Edit:

Provided by RAF90

https://www.forgottenweapons.com/explaining-the-ar-safety-lever-design-video/ States Clearly that the AR-15 is a Semi-Automatic Rifle at 38s and that the Prototype was Full Automatic (Assault Rifle)

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/343778.pdf the US Military Testing Results Document states that it was in Testing still when it was written (page 9 section 4b to page 10) (this was 3 years into the 6 year testing stage)

Provided by MoldyOne

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/20/us/ar-15-owners.html (New York Times) States that it is a Semi-Automatic Rifle and the Full Automatic Version is called the M-16

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2018/02/15/4-basic-questions-about-the-ar-15/?utm_term=.9b444c6f5423 (Washington Post) States it is a Rifle that was designed and sold to the Military as the M-16 (full Automatic) and to Civilian and Law Enforcement as the AR-15 (Semi-Automatic since fully automatic rifles have been prohibited by Federal law since the 30s)

Leaving the last 2 of my first set out as they may be considered Biased

we also have Numerous Wikipedia pages linked in that state the production model is a Semi-Automatic rifle and does not fit the definition of a Assault Rifle

All of these state basically the exact same thing, the AR-15 prototype was a full Automatic Assault Rifle and the production model was a Semi-Automatic Rifle

Adding to the articles

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2016/06/13/the-history-of-the-ar-15-the-weapon-that-had-a-hand-in-americas-worst-mass-shooting/?utm_term=.fb976ec77a72 (another Washington Post) stating the history of the AR-15 which states the AR-15 which became the M-16 when ordered was bought as a replacement for the M-14 Rifle used since WW2, meaning until it was bought by the US Military as the M-16, the AR-15 prototype was being tested, not the production model

MoldyOne (talk) 21:56, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

• Wrong again...The report a about the first 1000 production model ArmaLite AR-15s that were sent to Vietnam. All of them machinegun or select-fire assault rifles. Also, as I recall this section started with you claiming that...."The AR-15 is a semi Automatic Rifle due to it having no selector switch and firing only one shot per pull of the trigger, to say it is a Assault Rifle is misleading and dangerous. lets come to a consensus that addresses this issue so we can stop arguing. i am not disputing that it is the predecessor of the M-16 Which is a assault Rifle, what i am Disputing is the labeling of it being a Assault rifle when it clearly is a Semi-Automatic Rifle, by every weapons encyclopedia, every gun manufacturer, the US government and even ArmaLite rifles definition."... I have provided absolute proof that you are wrong. Your response was to move the bar and claim that they are prototypes and they don't count. But, lets compromise add "The prototype was an assault rifle, however, it was produced as a semi-automatic rifle." ...The ArmaLite AR-15 was in production for over 6 years, perhaps a 100,000 were made before the U.S. military adopted as the M16 rifle and it was never made in a semi-auto-only model (see the Teen Years https://www.ar-15lowerpartskit.com/americas-rifle-the-history-of-the-ar-15/ ). The semi-auto Colt AR-15 came later and is not the same as the select-fire ArmaLite AR-15. The fact that you are unwilling or unable to understand that these are two different rifles is vexing to say the least.--RAF910 (talk) 00:14, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

the report you linked was declassified in 1974 which means it was written in 1962, the very first part of it states"The AR-15 Armalite rifle has been subjected to a comprehensive field evaluation under combat conditions in Vietnam. the results of this evaluation, contained in the attached report, are forwarded for your information." this means it was still in the testing stage and not in production yet. it also states that it is the final report of the testing stage, which goes back to the argument that it is the prototype being tested in mass quantities. now if you can show me something that states the AR-15 production model was a Assault Rifle other then your word and that doesnt contradict your argument, i will accept it, but as it stands now, you are arguing the same thing i am without accepting the second part of the argument. I am not trying to be rude, i am just being factual and accurate. MoldyOne (talk) 00:37, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

it states they were being Tested which means prototype,

In 1962, one thousand rifles were sent to South Vietnam for field trials. In 1963, following positive reviews from South Vietnam, 85,000 AR-15’s were purchased for the United States Army and another 19,000 were bought for the U.S. Air Force.

By 1966, the United States’ involvement in the Vietnam War prompted a purchase of 840,000 AR-15 rifles for military use, with a designation of “M16,” the AR-15 became the primary infantry weapon for all branches of the United States military. MoldyOne (talk) 00:47, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

Also Colt had ownership of the AR-15 design in 1959, 3 years before that report and first produced was in 1964 for Civilian and Law EnforcementMoldyOne (talk) 00:57, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

@TintedFate: Please STOP pinging me over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. I was already aware of this discussion before your first ping. If I chose to respond here, I will. - BilCat (talk) 01:05, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

relooking at that document (and doing some more research) i am partially right and on the rest of the information we are both wrong. the AR-15 was prototyped by ArmaLite in 1958 as a .22 Assault Rifle, in 1959 all prototypes and designs became property of Colt and they had 2 versions, the Colt AR-15 Semi-Automatic Rifle which they sold to the public and Law Enforcement (1964) and the Version when adopted for Military use redesignated M-16 Assault Rifle (1967). I am not afraid to admit on what i am wrong on and we were both wrong on many points. i Still argue that listing this rifle as a Assault Rifle without the Prototype designation is misleading to anyone who searches for AR-15 (which is how i ended up on that page), Especially when its proven through the fact that the Colt AR-15 Semi-Automatic version was produced BEFORE the M-16 version was done testing. MoldyOne (talk) 02:03, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

this is what i have been able to find

History of the Armalite AR-15

After AR-10 failed to win contract (it was awarded to the M-14), ArmaLite asked to design a smaller version of the AR-10

Designed late 1958 (cant find a exact month of design finished only late 1958) as a .22 Assault Rifle, no prototype models created

Design Sold to Colt Jan 1959

Colt produces 300 prototypes for testing with the ArmaLite branding (Spring 1959) (they did this on early models until Eugene Stoner left ArmaLite and joined Colt in 1961)

Colt separates AR-15 design to 2 models, Civilian/Law Enforcement Semi-Automatic Rifle (Colt SP-1) and Military use Assault Rifle (CAR-15) to increase sales appeal (Summer 1959)

Colt sells AR-15 Semi-Automatic rifle prototypes to the Federation of Malaya

Prototypes shipped to Vietnam for testing en mass (CAR-15) (1960)

RAF90's report issued 1962

First Civilian/Law Enforcement models created (Sporter and SP-1) (1964)

Assault Rifle version Sold to US Military (M-16, M16A1) (1965) for more then training and testing purposes

MoldyOne (talk) 02:57, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

Since User:TintedFate is now a confirmed sock puppet of User:NecrozmaSpin, I have reverted and stricken his comments per WP:Deny.--RAF910 (talk) 15:48, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

The ArmaLite AR-15 and Colt AR-15 different are NOT the same rifle. They each have their articles on Wikipedia. And, because you are confusing the two rifles, and now adding the CAR-15 family of weapons to the mix your above comments are little more than nonsense.--RAF910 (talk) 15:54, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

sorry, did a double shift and went to bed, but to answer your question, they are the same rifles because all ArmaLite did was design it, it never made any, they were all made by Colt who just stamped the ArmaLite marker on them

https://www.ammoland.com/2011/10/historical-review-of-armalite/#ixzz5BuQmJFBU

"ArmaLite licensed the designs and trademarks of the AR-10 and AR- 15 to Colt’s in January 1959."

"Early Colt AR-15s, their magazines, and their operator’s manuals were marked with ArmaLite’s name. Colt’s retained the AR-15 designation on commercial rifles. To this day Colt’s has a model designation with the letters AR, which stands for “ArmaLite”."

MoldyOne (talk) 16:10, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

The FULL-AUTO ArmaLite AR-15 is not the same rifle as the SEMI-AUTO Colt-15. By your argument the ArmaLite AR-15, M16 rifle and Colt AR-15, and the entire CAR-15 family of firearms are all the same rifle, which is absolute nonsense.--RAF910 (talk) 16:21, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

@Ian.thomson: This is getting us nowhere, I have proven RAF90 is wrong, I have even given a timeline using information provided by both him and I, I have Proven using his information that he is incorrect. I am also over his "That is nonsense" comments. I am tired of this argument and have better things to do, I ask that you make a decision and let that stand as final. MoldyOne (talk) 16:53, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Gathering and going over sources

Going over the sources presented, focusing more on the professionally-published mainstream academic or journalistic ones instead of enthusiast blogs or commercial sites (which have a financial agenda in their labeling) or primary sources (because those need secondary or tertiary sources to be properly interpreted):

• Identifies the AR-15 as an "assault(-style) rifle/weapon": 1 2
• Explicitly says that the AR-15 is "not an assault(-style) rifle/weapon": (not just "AR doesn't stand for assault rifle," but "the AR-15 is not an assault rifle"): 1
• Identifies the AR-15 as just a "semiautomatic rifle" without calling it an "assault(-style) rifle/weapon": 1

This slightly vaguely toward going with "assault weapon," but there's really not enough sources yet.

The problem is that y'all have been wasting time arguing with useless original research (which we don't use), often pointing to other articles on this site (nevermind that we don't use Wikipedia as a source for Wikipedia per WP:CIRCULUAR and WP:OTHERSTUFF), instead of lining up sources (as I had recommended).

I went on to search "ar-15 assault" (regular links) and "ar-15 semiautomatic -assault" (bolded), searching the same number of pages for both. To confirm that the first search would pull up results for both "AR-15 is an assault rifle" and "AR-15 is not and assault rifle," I did also search "ar-15 not assault" and there were no differences in the reliable sources (though there was a possibly telling increase in unreliable blogs). The second search should confirm whether or not "semiautomatic rifle" is more common or less common in reliable sources. I did include professionally-published books of academic quality aimed at enthusiasts. Here's the breakdown after including the above links (italicized):

• Identifies the AR-15 as an "assault(-style) rifle/weapon": 1, 2, 3, 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
• Explicitly says that the AR-15 is "not an assault(-style) rifle/weapon" (not just "AR doesn't stand for assault rifle"): 1 2 3
• Leaves the definition up for debate but cites legal precedent supporting the definition as an assault weapon: 1 2 3 4
• Identifies the AR-15 as just a "semiautomatic rifle" without calling it an "assault(-style) rifle/weapon": 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

This source and this one fall somewhere between the last two categories. They only refer to the AR-15 as a semiautomatic rifle but note that it was banned under the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban.

Going through the books in particular, I noticed that at some point before the Obama administration, gun enthusiasts were quite happy to call the AR-15 an assault rifle or assault weapon. My impression (which is not going into the article) is that it was only after the Sandy Hook massacre that gun enthusiasts started to shy away from the term.

Of the 34 sources I found 22 (64.7%) refer to it in some fashion as an assault rifle without denying said designation, 12 (35.2%) refer to it as an assault rifle without labeling it as a semiautomatic rifle without labeling it as an assault weapon. Of the latter category, only 3 (25% of this group, 8.8% of the total) actually say that it's not an assault rifle.

64.7% is a lot more than 8.8%.

Ian.thomson (talk) 18:28, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

• Ugh...OK, one more time...This article is called the List of ArmaLite rifles. The key word in the title is ArmaLite the name of the company that made the full-auto select-fire ArmaLite AR-15 rifle. A rifle that has not been made for over 50 years and is the subject of the following U.S. military DARPA report... http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/343778.pdf . If you simply read this report, you will known what ArmaLite AR-15 is. Now, ALL of the info that MoldyOne provided above is complete nonsense, egged-on by a blocked sock puppet. And, unfortunately, all the info and sources that you provided above, are about the semi-auto-only Colt AR-15 made by Colt's Manufacturing Company, and its many semi-auto copies and clones. These semi-auto AR-15s are currently dominating the news cycle. Basically, what we have here, is a very frustrating situation, where the article is about "Portland, Maine", but we're talking about "Portland, Oregon." With editors providing info and sources about "Portland, Oregon." Frankly, I'm at a complete lost at how to proceed. User: BilCat whom you pinged above, believes "That's the worst case of IDHT that I've seen inlong time, and I really don't anything I can add that you haven't already said." , and User:Limpscash hasn't edited for weeks, is probably unaware of whats happening, and who knows when or if he will edit again. So, I guess we'll have to wait for more knowledgeable editors to revert the changes and comment here. In the mean time WIKI readers, will be given incorrect information. --RAF910 (talk) 05:16, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Look, I presented sources that show that AR-15s in general are considered assault weapons. Unless you have sources that explain that Armalite's specific AR-15 and derivative models are so distinct that it's really stupid of them to even call both guns AR-15s, I'm not seeing why you're hair-splitting like this. What I'm seeing here is more like, if you wanted to add "obligate carnivores" to Pantherinae, I suggest sources that describe Felidae, and you object because Pantherinae aren't Felinae.

The DARPA report is a primary source, which generally is not favored per WP:PRIMARY.

@BilCat: No user should be expected to trawl through the talk page of every user who has edited the article in question to figure out what consensus might be. That just opens up future edit wars on the basis of "well, I don't see consensus on the talk page." If you had just said that you agreed with RAF910 in the centralized discussion, that would have helped give some indication of consensus a long while ago instead of letting it continue to look like it's just RAF910 and MoldyOne. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:21, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

@Ian.thomson: I'm not sure how your derived all that from a request to an obnoxious sock to stop pinging me, but whatever. Let me make it clear to all involved in this discussion: Please don't ping me here again. I'm not interested. - BilCat (talk) 22:57, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

• Fuck it, if no one here is the least bit interested in properly establishing a clear consensus on the talk page, and instead wants to bicker over primary source based original research (or just not contribute at all despite having a view on the matter), I'm not going to bother mediating, either. Do whatever y'all want. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:16, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

@Ian.thomson:as far as I am concerned, you made a ruling and I am abiding by it, the only person having a issue is the person who doesnt want to come to a consensus, talk or do anything besides tell people they are wrong, @RAF90 MoldyOne (talk) 01:36, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

The only assault rifle was the full auto one developed for the military, designated as the M16 by our military and what the public knows it by. The semi-auto version sold to the general public, known as the AR-15, are just rifles. [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7] -72bikers (talk) 13:32, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

• I think I can figure out where the confusion is here. There are two related but distinct rifles called "ArmaLite AR-15". One, designed by ArmaLite and which eventually became the M16 rifle, is the ArmaLite AR-15. The other, designed by Colt and using the same name for marketing purposes, is the Colt AR-15 (aka "Colt ArmaLite AR-15") - this is all information gleaned from Ian.thomson's very first source, the NPR article ("Many versions" section). The vast majority of the rest of the sources in Ian's list refer to either AR-15 style rifles (which are entirely different altogether) or the latter weapon (and thus not the one currently listed in the article), incorrectly conflate the two, or ignore the difference altogether for simplicity - even this excellent, in-depth NY Times piece profiling both AK-type and AR-type rifles barely mentions the difference. In addition, even though Ian's list considers them the same, assault rifle and assault weapon are also entirely different things. It's certainly true that the latter Colt AR-15 is directly derived from the former ArmaLite AR-15, but the two are distinct enough (different mechanics, designer, purpose) to have separate articles. Honestly, this all could have been avoided had Colt not named its variant "AR-15" (and, to a lesser degree, had gun control legislation come up with less confusing terms), but they did, and so we're stuck with it.

This whole thing also brings up an pretty big issue with how Wikipedia works. As Ian says (and rightfully so), we can't use primary sources, but instead rely on secondary or even tertiary sources to interpret the primary sources for us. The problem with this is, what do we do when a majority of secondary sources interpret primary material in a demonstrably incorrect way, as is happening more and more frequently nowadays (and not just regarding this topic)? As a hypothetical analogy: in a study about chair color preferences, a journal article states that "75% of the chairs are blue". A RS news outlet (e.g. CNN), in a race to be the first to publish about this new groundbreaking science-ing, puts up an article with the headline "75% of chairs are blue, journal says". Other publications, seeing said outlet's article, parrot: "According to CNN, most chairs are blue", and eventually that makes its way to the WP article, which says that most chairs are blue with a couple cites here and there. Now, if you read the original journal article, it clearly says that they only used chairs in one building, and notes that all chairs in the neighboring building are red. But since all the RS say that chairs are blue, and nobody seems interested in publishing corrections even after it's repeatedly pointed out to them by non-RS, what does WP do? Something to think about.

That all being said, here's a possible compromise: instead of erasing all mention of the Colt AR-15 altogether, include it in the notes for the AR-15 row in this list. Perhaps something like "Also developed by Colt into the semi-automatic Colt AR-15". After all, the description already mentions one noted design that was created from the AR-15 (M16), so why not another? Hope this helps, ansh666 22:42, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

That seems like a good solution, it would make it very clear to the reader that there is more that one type of gun called the AR-15. This argument seems to have risen from confusion over what "the AR-15" is, rather than a fundamental disagreement. –dlthewave ☎ 22:59, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

 Done–dlthewave ☎ 02:54, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

AR-14

How would I go about documenting the AR-14? So far, this post at Quora (https://www.quora.com/Where-can-I-buy-an-AR-14) is the only reference I've been able to find about it. -- Frotz(talk) 06:35, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

These guns are not all rifles.

While AR does stand for ArmaLite rifle, multiple AR models are not rifles. This includes shotguns and pistols. This article should be renamed and edited to reflect that fact. CamdenQ (talk) 19:22, 14 September 2024 (UTC)