Talk:List of Broadway theaters

Existing former Broadway theaters, Central Theatre

The "Existing former Broadway theaters" section of this page is defined as "the theater must have hosted at least one Broadway production... and some part of the original theater structure must still be standing." The facade of Central Theater still stands per the source [1] so it should be included. "Existing" does not mean "can easily be re-built into a Broadway house." The Empire Theater has less existing from its Broadway days than Central Theater does and I doubt we would consider stripping it of its "existing" title.--Found5dollar (talk) 15:29, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

I disagree with that categorization. A fragment is not sufficient for any meaningful definition of "existing". The auditorium of the former Central Theatre was demolished outright. Lobbies are just lobbies, but a theatre without an auditorium is not a theatre. A portion of the facade of the Sam Harris Theatre it still attached to the Candler Building, but no one would say that hasn't been demolished. Same with the Central. It is gone, not extant. oknazevad (talk) 05:02, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

oknazevad the purpose of this section is not that the remaining structure can be easily transitioned into a theater again, it is to note theaters that have some architectural structure still standing. If we want to do a footnote for buildings where the auditorium no longer exists I could be down for that, but we would need a reliable source saying that the auditorium was actually demolished. Right now yhey only say it is now part of the W hotel.--Found5dollar (talk) 14:26, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

The auditorium is demolished, there's no significant doubt about that. It's plain and simply gone. And the lobby has no architectural detail left; it literally always stripped to the bare cinderblock walls. By no meaningful use of the term can the former Central Theatre be called existing. It really doesn't speak to the accuracy of this post when a basic fact like that is misplayed. It's plainly incorrect. (See here) oknazevad (talk) 14:36, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

oknazevad, the two sources cited in the article say there is still structure standing,[2][3], the source you just pulled, which by the way is not reliable because it is editable by the general public, says that the auditorium was demolished but says nothing about the lobby, and by your own statement claiming the building is "stripped to the bare cinderblock walls" you are saying that there is still structure standing. If you want to change how we define "existing" in this article we can talk about that, but, as currently defined, Central Theater should sit in this category. There are basicly 2 ways forward i see, 2) leave the category as is becasue that is how the reliable sources we have break down that "existing" means, 2) add footnotes to the theaters that have had significant alterations that preclude the reopening as a theater, but we would need to come up with some reliable souces which deliniate this distinction.--Found5dollar (talk) 15:22, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm just saying that plainly we cannot describe a theatre where over 90% of the structure has been demolished as existing. To call it such is absurd. The fact that a couple of walls were reused (and there's some doubt even about that) is insufficient to call it such. Also, I'd note that Cinema Treasures is not a user-editable site. Yes, the comments section is used-submitted, but that's just as true for any major newspaper's site. The body text is not, and shows clear editorial control by the site owners, so I disagree that it is unreliable for being user-edited. oknazevad (talk) 17:15, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

And in case you needed proof: Playbill themselves back in 1998 when it was actually demolished. Again, it is not an existing theatre. Period. oknazevad (talk) 17:40, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

oknazevad, the 1998 article says it was demolished, but the 2019 article says parts are still standing. This means there is a discrepancy not that the older one is right and the newer one is wrong. Per multiple sources there is still part of the building standing and that is the criteria, that part of the building is still standing. If you have another idea for how to define "existing" and a standard to follow I welcome that but just repeatedly removing cited information from a featured list is not helpful. I am happy to ask for a third opinion if we feel there is an impasse between us. I ask that we work it out here instead of just reverting the article over and over as we have now hit 3 reverts.--Found5dollar (talk) 22:03, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

I'll accept a request for a third opinion. I think the contemporaneous source is pretty definitive, but am willing to see what others say. oknazevad (talk) 22:06, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

oknazevad, I have requested a third opinion. lets see what other people think of this.Found5dollar (talk) 22:52, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Revisiting this topic some two years later, I removed the theatre outright. The Playbill article identifying the Swarovski store with the former Central Theatre lobby is straight up incorrect. The Swarovski store is at 1565 Broadway, while the former theatre lobby was at 1567 Broadway, which was definitely demolished as part of the construction of the now-W Hotel (the exact location is the site of the Blue Fin seafood restaurant attached to the hotel, compete with the same 1567 address).

The confusion apparently stems from both buildings at differing points being the site of the Roxy Deli. The deli opened in the former lobby after the theatre closed, but only a couple of years after that moved next door to the 1565 address that is now the Swarovski store. Being they're right next door, and being they apparently used the same sign, it's understandable confusion, and one that even Playbill got wrong. But, no, none of the Central Theatre/Forum/Movieland remains. It has been removed from the still-standing former theatres. I'll incorporate it into the proper demolished theatres section. oknazevad (talk) 06:03, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

oknazevad thank you for this research! What a story. We normally have to follow the sources, but if the source got the address wrong that is a whole other story. Thanks again!--Found5dollar (talk) 22:16, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Help for a similar article!

Anyone wanna help me finishing this draft article? Draft:List of Broadway productions by year. The source I use is [4]. HeartGlow ^(talk) 14:40, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

New article on Sam H. Harris Theatre

• I saw the discussion above re the Sam H. Harris Theatre and reversions on the Broadway theatres template which had linked to Sam H. Harris himself, so I started an article on the theatre. Some photographs would be nice if available.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 18:53, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

• amazing! Thank you!--Found5dollar (talk) 21:41, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Thank you! Always nice to see new content created! oknazevad (talk) 22:09, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

• Thanks guys. I also recently did George M. Cohan's Theatre, and I'm struck (but not surprised) by how the Great Depression really killed a lot of venues.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 13:41, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Proposed change to the map

Actually, I'm suggesting two things here. The foremost is changing the current interactive map on the page, so all of the theaters have numeric labels like this. In addition, I color-coded the map according to the operator (this can be changed, since I lumped all the minor operators with one color):

•  : Shubert
•  : Nederlander
•  : Jujamcyn
•  : Roundabout
•  : others

(Or maybe we don't include colors at all, my main suggestion is numbering the points.)

The other thing I proposed is just adding a column in the main list for numbering the rows, so e.g. "1" for Al Hirschfeld Theatre, "2" for Ambassador Theatre, etc. This would go along with the proposed changes to the map. Thoughts? – Epicgenius (talk) 00:45, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Would you number them based on alphabetical order or based on location (i.e. north-to-south or vice versa)? Because names do occasionally change and that would make for a lot of work to redo the map if one does. Plus alphabetically creates a haphazard appearance where the order of numbers on the map is not readily apparent to a reader; most Theater District maps for tourists number based on location for that reason.

Also, skip the colors. Doesn't really improve anything.

The one thing I do wish was that the map's default appearance was zoomed in a little more, but since it's interactive it's not really a big deal. oknazevad (talk) 09:41, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

@Oknazevad, the numbering is based on the current order of the rows in the table, i.e. alphabetical order. I mean, it may be a pain when the numbers change, but that isn't too much of a hassle and could be fixed relatively quickly. I chose the numbers based on the table rows because it was easiest to accomplish.

Also, with regards to zooming, that extreme outlier is the Beaumont Theater at Lincoln Center. Maybe we could zoom into the Theater District alone and have a note about that in the caption. – Epicgenius (talk) 13:48, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

So I think this realy comes down to clarity vs. information. When I first made this map my concept for it was not to rehash information in the table but to show something that can not be shown through text, namely the overall density of Broadway Theaters. This concept you come up with 100% shows more information but I think it muddies my original intent of the map. Currently each point, when you click on it, shows the name of the theater which I think is a faster way of noting which point is which instead of a number and key system but I could be convinced otherwise. Maybe we could add the operator to what is says when clicked on? If we want more clarity I think the idea of zooming in the map and noting the Vivian Beaumont is uptown X number of blocks may do more for clarity than renumbered and color coding would. I also thought about doing an additional map showing all the theaters listed here showing how "Broadway" moved up Manhattan over the years but that is a completely different subject. Realy what I'm saying is we should discuss what we want this map to do in general and what we want it to show then decide how to get that info in.--Found5dollar (talk) 15:40, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

@Found5dollar, to your point Currently each point, when you click on it, shows the name of the theater - the map still does that in the version that I'm proposing. The name of the theater appears when you click on the number. I'm bringing this up mainly because I think the map would be more helpful to readers if there's also some indication of where each theater is. – Epicgenius (talk) 17:23, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

@Epicgenius: I guess I just don't understand how it isn't currently indicating where each theater is.--Found5dollar (talk) 18:30, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

@Found5dollar Sorry for the late response. I mean that the points do physically indicate theaters, but that if you were looking for a certain theater on the map, you would have to click on the point to determine whether it's the right one. Adding numeric indications and a number key would remove the need for an extra click. – Epicgenius (talk) 20:55, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

@Epicgenius, in your version of the map though there are still overlapping pins so to see what number they are one would still have to click on the point. Perhaps we add in the text below the map something along the lines of "click on the map pin for additional information about each theater."--Found5dollar (talk) 14:48, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

@Found5dollar, a message to the effect of "click on the pin for additional info" would be great. I think that overlapping is a little unavoidable, especially in the 44th-46th Street area where there's 14 theaters within 3 blocks, so that would work. (By the way, I only noticed just now that some of the points are off-center and should probably be fixed.) – Epicgenius (talk) 15:14, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

@Epicgenius, I changed the text below the map to read "Locations of active Broadway theaters. Each individual theater is represented by a pin which when clicked on shows the name of the theater." I also added a header above the map marking it as an "interactive map." I added the pins where the theater is marked on google maps. if you would like to correct the precise center of the pin please feel free to do so.--Found5dollar (talk) 19:53, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Honestly, I think the proposal is trying to put too much into the map, when the list is sufficient. oknazevad (talk) 23:10, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

"Current" productions

We are having a small disagreement about "Flying Over Sunset". It opens on Dec 13, 2021 but is in previews. It technically isn't a current production at a theater because it hasn't opened yet, but it is being performed. I'd love more thoughts on when we should consider a show for the "current production" field of the table. I believe it should be when it officially opens but could be persuaded to include shows in previews if there is some sort of modifier. Perhaps something like a parenthetical (in previews) to mark that it hasn't actually opened yet.--Found5dollar (talk) 14:41, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

A note that it's in previews makes sense. But saying there's no production occupying the theatre when there is literally a performance that night strikes me as just incorrect. oknazevad (talk) 01:02, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Broadway theaters that are actually on Broadway

The article says While Broadway theaters are colloquially considered to be "on Broadway", only three active Broadway theaters are physically on Broadway (the Broadway Theatre, Palace Theatre, and Winter Garden Theatre). However, the given source, Playbill, says: "But today only three "Broadway" theatres are actually on Broadway: the Winter Garden, the Marquis, and the eponymous Broadway Theatre."

I don't have a problem with excluding the Marquis, since the actual entrance is on 46th Street, rather than on Broadway, which actually no longer has any entrance to either the hotel or the theater. However, the Palace is currently being reconfigured so its new main entrance will be on 47th Street, as per here. This may therefore require a footnote, since only the Broadway (53rd) and Winter Garden now have entrances on Broadway. The Palace's Broadway entrance has already been removed and a construction site occupies the space, so I don't think it counts anymore. – Epicgenius (talk) 21:50, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

I am absolutely fine with adding a footnote with this information.--Found5dollar (talk) 01:26, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Eden Theatre (now Village East)

I came across this very unusual situation. Village East by Angelika, formerly the Eden Theatre, seems to be listed in both the Internet Broadway Database and Playbill as having hosted Broadway-class shows. The theater is still operational and is a movie theater. Neither source mentions the theater's current use as a movie theater, which isn't a big deal as there are other reliable sources for this.

What concerns me is that, since the theater is in the East Village, it was mostly considered an off-Broadway theater despite the fact that it did have a Broadway-size capacity. Though several shows used all of the Eden's 1,050 or so seats, others were restricted to 499. Would this still be considered a "former Broadway theater" in that case, and thus should be added to List of Broadway theaters#Existing former Broadway theaters? Or was it always off-Broadway despite having some Broadway shows? Epicgenius (talk) 18:48, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Interesting. Without knowing what the capacities those shows ran with, it's impossible to say for certain whether those productions really qualify. Plus there's the fact that the 500+ capacity criterion didn't really exist yet when those occurred. Just looking at it, most of those productions look more like pre-Broadway tryouts than full Broadway productions (especially Grease and Oh Calcutta!) That said, the case of Man of La Mancha is an odd one, having previously been on Broadway at the Martin Beck (now Al Hirschfeld) and having returned later to the Mark Hellinger (now home of the Times Square Church). As it is, there's not enough to indicate it should be included in my mind. We lack, for example, anything about whether the productions were Tony eligible. In general, the late 69s-early 70s were a down time for NYC theatre and producers would pretty much try anything to keep a show going. oknazevad (talk) 14:59, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. Regarding Tony-eligible productions, as far as I know, none of the Eden's productions was nominated while they were being performed in that theater. As for capacities, I think most of them ran with 499 seats. I know at least one (Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat) was increased from 499 to 1,096 while it was still at the Eden, shortly after it opened. But for the most part, yeah, these appear to have been off-Broadway tryouts. I suppose the Eden never counted as a Broadway theater in that case, though I found it interesting since some of the former venues seem to have been smaller than the Eden ever was. – Epicgenius (talk) 17:47, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

So something seems to be going on over at IBDB. When I made the lists of former Broadway theaters I based it off the theaters listed on IBDB. "The following lists organize all demolished venues which hosted legitimate theater and appear on the Database." I scoured the database to find every theater structure it housed that had a show listed. They seem to have added some since, including spaces that are definitely not Broadway houses. This Eden Theatre is questionable so I tested if Radio City Music Hall, which has never been a Broadway house, was listed and there it was.[5] Per the description of how the list is created both of these should be added as they are on IBDB, but it doesn't seem correct to have them. Do we need to re-work what the inclusion criteria is?--Found5dollar (talk) 13:21, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, the IBDB, in their efforts to be as thorough as possible, seem to be including additional coverage of a show's pre-Broadway run, or otherwise preceding production predecessors (try saying that five times fast!) They have a lot of the old summer productions from New York City Center (the forerunner to todays Encores program, though back then they were more fully staged and ran for a week or two, not just a weekend), but also state outright that it is "not technically a Broadway theatre". Part of the issue is that the current firm definition evolved over time, both in terms of capacity requirements and in terms of the "Broadway box" (which has slightly different definitions for city planning and union contract purposes) so when talking about theatres that were demolished many decades ago it can be difficult to firmly categorize edge cases. For current theatres it's pretty obvious: the list of 41 permanent Tony-eligible houses. For the demolished, no such definitive list exists. And for extant former theatres, the question of whether it was once "Broadway", as in the case here, or is still meaningfully extant, as in the case of Central, is where the lines are fuzzy. I for one wouldn't include the old Met Opera house. oknazevad (talk) 15:04, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Future good topic

Currently, 40 of the 41 active Broadway theaters are good articles (the sole exception being Circle in the Square Theatre). I would like to nominate all the active Broadway theaters for good topic status after I improve the Circle in the Square's article to GA status. Since this is a featured list, does anyone have any objections if I list the main contributors to this FL as co-nominators for the GT? – Epicgenius (talk) 22:49, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Epicgenius: sorry, I missed this earlier. I'm a bit busy right now in life off wiki, but will happily help with a good topic push. As i am the one that got this to FL status feel free to rope me in anytime.--Found5dollar (talk) 22:22, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

No problem, @Found5dollar, thanks for responding. I'll list you as a co-nominator when I create the GT nomination, then. Thank you for your hard work bringing this list to FL status. – Epicgenius (talk) 22:31, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

@Found5dollar, I've now nominated this topic for GT status. – Epicgenius (talk) 01:00, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

My only concern is that we still haven't addressed the concerns in the below section, and when something becomes recognized content it can become harder to correct issues like those. But the massive work you've done definitely deserves to be recognized. Good luck! oknazevad (talk) 01:48, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

@Oknazevad, thanks for the feedback. The proposed GT only includes the 41 active Broadway theaters (which are mentioned in multiple sources), so I don't think there would be any confusion about the scope of that topic.

If we were to include demolished Broadway theaters, or even defunct theaters that still exist, it would be a lot harder to determine what exactly the topic's scope is. However, I think that problem would only occur if a GT about defunct theaters were to be created. – Epicgenius (talk) 01:53, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Understood. This has reminded me that I've still got to start doing the calculations on which venues meet the criteria we discussed below. Perhaps I'll get to it this weekend. oknazevad (talk) 02:12, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Metropolitan Opera House and other questionable entries

To be frank, I don't think we can just default to treating the IBDB is definitive. Yes, they list a handful of things that played at the old Met Opera House in their database of productions (the last of which was a week of concerts by Judy Garland which could just as easily been at Radio City Music Hall, but I digress.) But they also include an even more extensive list of productions at City Center while right on top saying that "it's not technically a Broadway theatre".

The fact is, the IBDB is very inclusive of things that aren't really Broadway theatre as a form because the principals involved in such events and productions also have Broadway credits so those productions are included in the IBDB to make those résumés more complete, which has a knock on effect of posting venues that aren't actually Broadway venues by any means. Like Lewisohn Stadium. Calling a 9,000 seat outdoor amphitheater stadium located nowhere near the theatre district (of the time of the listed productions or by the present definition) a Broadway venue is absurd. It really doesn't belong on the list at all.

Oh, by the way, the aforementioned Radio City also has an IBDB listing, but it doesn't belong either. It doesn't operate under the Broadway contracts. I'll also note that the Playbill Vault didn't include it, nor Lewisohn Stadium. It's a good second source to use to doublecheck whether or not something truly belongs here. oknazevad (talk) 11:23, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

On one hand, I agree with your point - venues like Lewisohn Stadium shouldn't be on the list just because they happened to host a few Broadway productions. But on the other hand, the definition of a Broadway theater was pretty vague until the 1949 Equity agreement was signed. Additionally, Playbill Vault lists venues like the Eden Theatre (as does IBDB), even though the status of that theater is really uncertain. – Epicgenius (talk) 14:19, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

I guess this leads us to much bigger questions. If we don't feel we can trust IBDB or Playbill Vault as being definitive, what should be? If something hosted a Broadway production, doesn't that make it a Broadway theater? If we don't want to trust IBDB or Playbill Vault what process do we use to determine what was and wasn't a Broadway theater?--Found5dollar (talk) 19:14, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

To be fair, IBDB and Playbill Vault are reliable. However, if we described something like Village East by Angelika as an existing former Broadway theater, a few eyebrows may be raised, as Village East's status as a Broadway theater is contradicted by Playbill itself.

This also applies to former theaters, particularly those with fewer than 500 seats, those that have a humongous number of seats, and/or those that were far from the Theater District at the time. There's no question that something like the Sam H. Harris Theatre or the Apollo Theatre (42nd Street) were Broadway houses, as the Theater District was centered around that area when both theaters were built, and they both have 1200 seats, similar to today's mid-sized Broadway houses. Then you have something like Lewisohn Stadium, which was an open-air sports field, or Castle Clinton, a former fort that hasn't presented anything in nearly two centuries (and is incorrectly listed as razed, even though it still stands today). – Epicgenius (talk) 00:04, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Exactly. I think we have to use some judgement. It's pretty obvious that, despite general reliability, the IBDB includes some entries that really shouldn't be there, as they're not Broadway as anyone knowledgeable would generally recognize it. As someone in the industry, I certainly wouldn't call the spectacle (to use that tag the IBDB uses) that played at Lewisohn over a hundred years ago a Broadway production, nor the one-night-only opera performance also listed. IBDB includes those (the only two things listed for the stadium) and subsequently the stadium, yet they don't include any of the decades' worth of Shakespeare in the Park productions despite the Delacorte Theatre being a permanent venue holding 1,800 people (Playbill Vault lists them as off-Broadway despite the capacity).

One of the modern Tony criteria is that a theatre regularly presents plays and musicals. Although that is a criterion formalized well after some of these events (and not the sole consideration even then), it was more a codification of the already-existing concept. A venue that has a handful of special presentations decades apart can safely be said to not be a Broadway theatre. At the very least, Lewisohn Stadium has got to go. oknazevad (talk) 02:14, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

I agree there are ones that do not fit what is classily defined as "Broadway", but there needs to be some sort of source or definition we can follow to decide what fits and what doesn't. I don't feel comfortable with us making judgement calls. Wiki is about what is verifiable and right now our verifiable sources say these spaces were Broadway houses. What process can we use to remove things like Castle Clinton and Lewisohn Stadium which probably shouldn't be included but are included in our reliable sources?--Found5dollar (talk) 19:20, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

We could set a cutoff criteria of, say, 10 productions (listed at both IBDB and Playbill Vault for the years covered by the latter) as a minimum for inclusion. That way we filter out the places that had a smattering of special events that played for a week that for some reason wound up with IBDB entries despite them clearly not being regular Broadway productions.

Which, in thinking about it, does illustrate the problem with just copying the IBDB – we don't actually know its inclusion criteria, which makes it difficult to judge whether something there is a valid inclusion or an error that needs to be submitted for correction. (And they do accept corrections. Years ago they listed the Gershwin Theatre as the "George Gershwin Theatre". But when the theatre was renamed from the Uris in 1983, no first name was included explicitly because the name is intended to honor both composer George and his brother/lyricist Ira. IBDB corrected their entry after I sent them an email.) That willingness to correct does speak to the site's reliability, but also that it's not error-free. oknazevad (talk) 23:17, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

A cutoff of 10 productions on both IBDB and Playbill sounds reasonable to me. (Any higher, and the Ed Sullivan Theater - which is cited in several sources as being a former Broadway theater - may not make the cut. Even though the Ed Sullivan has been a TV studio for most of its history, the discrepancy would still be quite difficult to explain.)

I understand your point that IBDB sometimes makes mistakes, but yeah, it is still generally reliable in my view. – Epicgenius (talk) 23:47, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

The idea of a cut-off makes sense in concept, but I'm a bit worried about the practicality of it. For instance, if we go with the 10 production cut off, the Lyric Theatre would not have been on our list until 2014, 16 years after it opened. Now if the Lyric had closed after Spiderman ended we all would still consider it a Broadway house but it would fail the 10 production cut off. I'm worried there are other older theaters that would fall into this category of hosting large works but getting kicked off the list for purely technical reasons. maybe a smaller cut off? maybe a different category for houses that are technically listed as hosting Broadway shows but it seems tenuous that they were considered Broadway? I am having a tough time thinking of something that culls out ones that shouldn't count but doesn't throw the Baby with the Bathwater.--Found5dollar (talk) 21:17, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

I was figuring 10 productions would be a good threshold to weed out the venues that didn't really fit the concept of being a venue that regularly hosts plays and/or musicals on a full-time basis. But you do highlight an issue I didn't consider: productions don't all have the same length, so even a not-too-large number doesn't necessarily reflect the status of the venue as having spent at least some period of its history as a full-time Broadway theatre. After all, the Majestic Theatre has hosted only one production in the last three and a half decades.

Perhaps a better quantitative threshold would be to limit it to venues that have hosted a minimum number of performances. A full calendar year of standard 8-performance weeks is just over 400 performances. Using IBDB and Playbill Vault, we can get the number of performances for each production and add them together (addition is a routine calculation and therefore doesn't need to be directly cited). If a theatre gets above 400 performances, we include it. Seems like it might be a bit of work, but it'll be a fun weekend project for me.

Also, though, I have a query to ponder. While looking up material about the President Theatre (as its the only red link in the post-1949-agreement portion of the list) it struck me that it only had 300 seats, clearly below the 500-seat threshold set by that agreement. It was apparently considered a Broadway theatre before the agreement because of its location in the "Broadway box" being it was east of 8th Ave. Though notably both the IBDB and the Internet Off-Broadway Database include productions after post-1949, with the IOBDB having additional short-run productions until the space was sold to the adjoining restaurant. The theatre's status isn't made any clearer by the fact that no production staged there was ever nominated for a Tony (only five productions listed at Playbill were after the introduction of the Tonys, and none of them lasted long. Stockade, the last one at Playbill lasted all of two days. Yeesh!) I guess what I'm getting at is the President Theatre was the sort of the 1949 definition was crafted to explicitly exclude, and therefore should we exclude it as well?

Also, during my quick lookover research, I noted the existence of the second Playhouse Theatre (later owned by and named for Jack Lawrence). Although it had only 499 seats (per Playbill), was located west of 8th Ave (359 W 48th St, to be exact), and opened after the 1949 agreement (operated from 1970 to 1987), it was classed as Broadway, complete with Tony nominations for some of the plays (though not many, as the theatre was never all that successful). We don't have an article on it at all, just a brief mention in the Jack Lawrence article about him owning the venue, and an even briefer mention that the name was recycled in the article on the original Playhouse Theatre closer to 6th Ave. Nothing left of it (building was demolished for an apartment building that is still there), but it should probably be added to the demolished list, even if it's just a redlink for now.

While we're at it, The Criterion Center (or Bow Tie Building, as it's now called) needs an article, too, as an independently notable building. It is not the same building as the old Olympia complex, which was demolished in 1935 so our only coverage being in that article is incorrect. And before anyone asks, no, it doesn't belong in the extant former theaters. The live stage spaces (which were entirely separate from the movie theatre that the building was named after) were constructed inside the pre-existing building in the old Bond International Casino space (which was column-free as it had originally been a nightclub), and were fully demolished when the building was totally gutted for building the giant Toys R Us the took over most of the building afterwards (and which itself has since been demolished so thoroughly that the construction workers found remnants of the orchestra pit foundation of the Olympia's Criterion Theatre, for which the later movie theatre was named). The Criterion Center Stage Right should be listed in the post-1949 demolished theatres, separate from the Olympia venues. oknazevad (talk) 03:17, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

@Found5dollar, you make a good point that I hadn't considered. I was thinking only in the context of Tony-eligible houses or 10-production cutoffs. All the current Broadway theaters are obviously Tony-eligible, but there are some former Broadway houses that wouldn't have been Tony-eligible (or, come to think of it, meet the 500-seat requirement in the Equity agreement).

As @Oknazevad mentioned above, a cutoff of 400 performances would be a better threshold. Even the Ed Sullivan Theater, which had a fleetingly short existence as a Broadway house, easily makes this cutoff. This should also cover outliers like Village East, which, despite its large capacity, not only is way outside the Broadway "box" but also was restricted to 499 seats when it did host theatrical performances. – Epicgenius (talk) 13:00, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

I could get behind the 400 performances, approximately 1 full calendar year of standard 8-performance weeks, of Broadway productions as a cut off, but I'm hesitant to include size of house as a qualifier as well. That would place our current understanding of what Broadway is on a past time, who may have understood it differently. I'm also worried about the exceptionally old theaters, particularly the ones in the "Pre-Musical" section that the documentation doesn't always exist for us to know the end dates of performances. Here is my suggestion for a new set of criteria for each section:

• Active Broadway theaters (no changes)
  • Has a capacity of over 500 seats.
  • Produces mostly legitimate theater productions.
  • Is generally within Manhattan's Theater District (the Vivian Beaumont Theater is an exception)
  • Is under an Actors' Equity "Production" contract if the theater is for-profit, or follows an Actors' Equity "LORT A" contract if the theater is run by a non-profit
• Existing former Broadway theaters (mostly just clarifying what the current list is and get it inline with the new demolished criteria)
  • Has hosted at least 400 performances, approximately 1 full calendar year of standard 8-performance weeks, of Broadway caliber productions (per IBDB)
  • Is listed on IBDB
  • Any part of the building is still standing
• Demolished Broadway theaters (all new criteria)
  • Has hosted at least 400 performances, approximately 1 full calendar year of standard 8-performance weeks, of Broadway caliber productions (per IBDB) (this may need to be adjusted for the "pre-musical" section because of lack of historic documentation)
  • Is listed on IBDB
  • was generally within the theater district of it's time

I would also suggest adding a sentence or paragraph in the lead of the "demolished" section about how there are dozens more theaters that hosted or produced single, one off productions that IBDB lists, but we are not listing here. Perhaps this paragraph includes a few of the more outlying ones described such as Village East, Radio City, The old Met Operahouse, Lewisohn Stadium, etc. to show that we recognize those productions were Broadway but the space was not. Found5dollar (talk) 16:01, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

A note like that in the introductory paragraph sounds reasonable to me. That way it covers the bases of some venues not being listed because they weren't full-time theatres. oknazevad (talk) 16:28, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

I also agree with this proposal. – Epicgenius (talk) 17:21, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

So it sounds like we've got some broad strokes of consensus here. Limit the list to venues that hosted at least 400 performances, and mention that other venues have hosted productions that are recognized but weren't full time Broadway theatres. Just not sure exactly how to phrase that. I'm not sure if including any examples helps, especially if they're exactly the sort of entries we're intentionally removing. oknazevad (talk) 00:11, 22 October 2022 (UTC)