Talk:List of Christmas and winter gift-bringers

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BetacommandBot (talk) 21:38, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

"merge"

Technically, since nothing on this page is referenced, we can "merge all referenced information" on this page by simply turning it into a redirect. If you want to add information to Wikipedia, the burden is on you to provide decent sources. If you fail to do that, your information will be removed, even if it happens to be correct. It isn't the job of others to figure out whether your information is correct. It is up to you to establish as much. --dab (𒁳) 12:06, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Arbitrary section headings

The section headings in this list seem rather arbitrary. They define neither useful geographical regions, nor groups of like traditions. Unless anyone objects, I'm proposing to re-group the entries based on similarity of tradition. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 13:54, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Actually, that turns out to be quite difficult as too many countries have multiple traditions. Probably the best approach will be to set out things in tabular form. I'll have a go over the next few days. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 18:01, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Now done. Should be easier to read and to maintain, but still needs sources. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 18:21, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Japan

サンタクロース has no any relation to Japan, it's just transliteration of Santa Claus from English. It's used used only for marketing and not related to usual people culture. Uncle Chimney is just some totally unknown nonsense. That "Bowler" is absolutely unreliable reference. --Rambalac (talk) 18:28, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Russia

There is no any "New Year Boy" in Russia, it's just some nonsense. --Rambalac (talk) 18:30, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

The "cl","col","kol","chael","guel" in Claus = Nicolai = Nikola(Nicole) = Mikola = Kolya = Michael = Miguel = Nigell etc. have root in old-slavic "Kolo" (Sun), later became "Sl": Солнце(Solntse, russian), Слънце, Sun, Sonne — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.138.49.230 (talk) 18:33, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

Let me see if understand your argument correctly. There's a phoneme in Old Church Slavonic that appears in Saint Nicholas' name in that language and so you believe that this is somehow the origin of the subject's name?

Could it simply be coincidental? I mean the name of the subject, at least the way he would have written it, would have been Νικόλαος, and that would be transliterated many different ways. And this was the patron saint of children. It's likely that it would have diminutive forms in most languages. And he died in 343, and was canonized well before the origin of the language (which is recognized around 850). I'm not sure I follow the cause-and-effect here or association to a word in Old Church Slavonic.

Also, what does this have to do with "new year boy" that was discussed here a year ago? Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:50, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Conflating arrival of Saint Nicholas with Christmas

The English tradition having "Santa Claus" deliver Christmas gifts seems to be behind the conflation his addition to this list in Catholic nations, notably Netherlands, Belgium and parts of Germany. This has nothing to do with Christmas but Saint Nicholas' feast day. @MichaelMaggs: This is why I reverted you. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:34, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Walter Görlitz, I agree that there is, and continues to be, conflation as Santa Claus gradually takes over older traditions in many countries. But this page covers both 'winter' and 'Christmas' gift-giving. The first column of the table cover the various 'old man' traditions, and doesn't distinguish between Christmas gift-bringers and Saint Nicholas' feast day bringers. You could add a separate column to the table if you think it worth while. MichaelMaggs (talk) 19:15, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Good point. We should probably signify this and I'll restore your change. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:52, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks.I'll have a look at this further tomorrow. Some discussion might be useful before doing anything too radical. MichaelMaggs (talk) 23:12, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

I last worked significantly on this page back in 2016, and it's interesting looking at it again with fresh eyes. I seem to recall at the time considering a more complex table, with separate columns for, for example, St Nicholas, Santa Claus, Father Christmas and Other (St Basil, Grandfather Frost etc). The difficulty is, as stated in the lead, that these are all very much overlapping traditions, with the extent of overlap depending not only on the country but also on the date - over the last century or so most of the older usually-religious traditions have been merged into or at the very least influenced by the secular American Santa Claus. For example, St Nicholas on 6 December has gradually merged into Santa Claus / (modern) Father Christmas in many countries, with the date of arrival being moved to 24 December. Similarly with the non-religious Grandfather Frost in Russia and elsewhere. Unfortunately, we don't at present have enough reliable sources and we’d need additional research to disentangle each character’s affinities with older characters and their respective dates. So as I'm aware, there is no single reliable source of that information, and it would be quite a bit of work. In the absence of that, more or less arbitrarily splitting things up into additional columns risks at the very least Original Research, and would very likely be wrong. So I tend to think we should leave the table as it is for now. MichaelMaggs (talk) 15:25, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Understood and agree that without RSes, we can't make any larger changes. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:46, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Heavily biased source

Hello! I don't plan on changing the article myself, but I wanted to point this out for anyone so inclined. This article is interesting, but currently I'm hesitant to trust that it provides WP:NPOV.

Gerry Bowler, the author/historian cited throughout this article, is a very unreliable source due to his WP:FRINGE claims and blatant religious biases prevalent in his work. For an example, I read this interview [1] regarding the "War on Christmas". A couple choice quotes:

1) "...if there were some kind of pagan connection, historians cannot discover it. In my opinion, it’s actually part of this whole notion of pagans trying to gain their way into respectability by appropriating Christmas."

2) "The present subservience of American conservative Christianity to a particular version of enlightenment-liberty is sad. I despise the Enlightenment and much of what it did. I think everything started going wrong in 1776. So, the Cross has no place on the same rostrum as the American eagle or the Canadian beaver or the Stars and Stripes or the Union Jack; it has a peculiar kind of message of its own. But having said that, from the American point of view, the war on Christmas really is a war about how the Constitution will let religious speech appear in the marketplace."

(my apologies for the blocks of text above) --Pythagimedes (talk) 01:12, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

Seems fringe, but are his fringe ideas discussed or only mainstream ones? Walter Görlitz (talk) 08:20, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

He may have opinions on other issues that you don't agree with, but I don't see any of those appearing in the book that is the basis for much of this article, nor in the article itself. Almost all of this is factual stuff (eg the gift-bringer in country xxx is known as yyy), and it's hard to see how his research into that would be affected by his background views on paganism and Christianity. MichaelMaggs (talk) 09:36, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

Spain and Catalonia in the map (and Slovenia)

While is true that Father Christmas is celebrated, Three Wise Men (Spain) and Cagatío (Catalonia) are both more popular and more traditional (Father Christmas has less than 100 years of usage in Spain)

A striped pattern indicating the three in Catalonia, and two (Father Christmas and Three Wise Men) in Spain will be way more appropiate AmunJazz (talk) 09:31, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Similairly and as the table states the map for Slovenia should also show Saint Nicholas not only Father Frost and "Christmas Man". As in Spain the last tradition is not that old. But the article adequatly points to conflation of different traditions in recent years. 2001:1470:EEEE:BEDA:CA36:83FD:52D1:FA22 (talk) 22:58, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Germany

From this Article: "the Christ Child traditions promoted by Martin Luther[1] ". From wikis article on "Christkind": ) "Promulgated by Martin Luther at the Protestant Reformation in 16th–17th-century Europe, many Protestants adopted this gift bringer, the Christ Child or Christkindl, and the date of giving gifts changed from December 6 to Christmas Eve."

Later in this Article the entry for Germany in the table: Weihnachtsmann[30] (Christmas Man) in Protestant areas. Christkind[30] (Christ Child) in Catholic areas.

The contradiciton seems obvisous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:F0:AF49:8B00:2D2D:ED10:E51D:BC96 (talk) 11:08, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Le Père Janvier in France

Hello,

I added the Père Janvier (Father January) to this list and it was reverted by User:Walter Görlitz because "a bit late to be a Christmas gift-bringer". But :

- the title of this article is "List of Christmas and winter gift-bringers by country"

- the Père Janvier perfectly fits into the definition of the winter gift-bringing old man

- the Père Janvier is one of the many French local gift-bringers who existed or still exist and merged into the syncretic Père Noël (Father Christmas) during the 19th century ; while many of them can retrospectively be seen as local variants of the Père Noël, the Père Janvier is, when still celebrated (in some families in Burgundy and Nivernais, especially in the Morvan mountains), generally regarded as a different character because contrary to many of these old gift-bringers, he comes during the night 31 December/1 January

- in France, New Year's Day is fully part of the "Christmas cycle"/Christmastide ("la période de Noël" or "le temps de Noël"), which begins on the Advent Sunday (even earlier in some regions, on St Martin's Day, 10 or 11 November) and ends with Candlemas (2 February)

- due to the previous fact, the Père Janvier is listed among the Christmas gift-bringers in the Manuel de folklore français by Arnold van Gennep

- the intro of the article mentions that "Not all gift-bringers were or are specifically focused on Christmas Eve or Christmas Day: other common customs are 6 December (St Nicholas), 1 January, New Year (St Basil, or secular), and 6 January, Epiphany (Three Kings).".

Thanks for your reading,

--CampagnardDeter (talk) 10:56, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

CampagnardDeter I agree that he seems to fit in as a winter gift-bringer for this page. Can you please complete the citation and refer not only to the book but also to the specific page number? An online copy that's free to borrow for a short period, can be found at the Internet Archive. MichaelMaggs (talk) 13:15, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Reverted again until a citation is supplied. If @CampagnardDeter: needs help adding the citation, I would be be clad to. If the one offered by MichaelMaggs, I could do that as well. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:15, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Hello, I'll add the page number (p. 3014-3016 of Manuel de folklore français tome 1 livre 7 - cycle des douze jours : Noël, by Arnold van Gennep. --CampagnardDeter (talk) 11:44, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for that info, CampagnardDeter. I don't know if you were looking at an oline copy, but if so it would be helpful to add the URL as well as a convenience to the reader (even if available only via a paywall). I can't see that volume on Internet Archive. Or maybe you have a print copy? MichaelMaggs (talk) 14:52, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I have a print copy (this one : https://www.amazon.fr/Manuel-folklore-fran%C3%A7ais-contemporain-Cycle/dp/2708400746 ). --CampagnardDeter (talk) 17:01, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

OK thanks. Looks a very interesting book. MichaelMaggs (talk) 22:37, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Agree. Thanks! Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:33, 28 December 2021 (UTC)