Talk:List of HSV vehicles

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Hi Guys. Without wanting to appear too pedantic the two SS Group A Commodores (VL & VN series) are not HSV models. These two cars are officially classified as being Holden models (not HSV) for the purposes of FIA homologation for Group A racing. They should be listed with the 'normal' Holden models. (Terrybebb (talk) 02:30, 22 October 2009 (UTC))

I agree that they were not HSVs, but the problem with removing these two models from the list is that sooner or later someone is going to see that they are "missing" and will put them back in. I think it's better to include them but make it more obvious that they were developed by HSV, for Holden, as Holdens. GTHO (talk) 09:00, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

I was going to propose that this list be merged with List of Holden vehicles by series with the HSV models placed under a dedicated "HSV models" section under each model code. This would be similar to how the HDT cars are already listed under "WB". OSX (talk • contributions) 02:23, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

I disagree with this proposal. There is enough confusion out there already with what is a Holden and what is an HSV. The merger would only serve to add to the confusion, as I believe, has the inclusion of Statesman HQ-WB models in what is supposed to be a List of Holdens. GTHO (talk) 02:32, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

I understand your point but there are two different ways to view this issue. The word 'Holden' has two distinct meanings. Firstly, it is the brand name (or Marque) to signify the Holden car, in other words the 'badge' itself. Secondly, it is the name of a car manufacturer which makes many models of car, some badged Holdens & some not. This is the case with the HQ-WB Statesman models, they are built by Holden but not badged as a Holden. There are several other examples of this. In the UC series, Holden themselves clearly state that the Sunbird models are Holdens but the Torana models are not. You might well point out that the company name is not Holden but GM Holden Ltd. The problem with that premise is that the name has changed many times over the decades. Without going back into pre-history, it was called General Motors-Holden (in both Ltd & Pty Ltd versions) in the early days. In the 80s there was the Holden Motor Company & the Holden Engine Company. Later again it became General Motors Holden's Automotive. In 1998 this became simply Holden Ltd & more recently GM Holden Ltd. I have no problem referring to the company as Holden. It's the same logic used as when you are defining whether or not a Berlina is a Commodore. In my opinion, as I say in the book, for some model series the Berlina has a Commodore badge & in other it does not. This doesn't mean that the Berlina is not a Commodore variant for all model series. (Terrybebb (talk) 09:12, 25 October 2009 (UTC))

So Terry, what would you suggest?:

• A single list of Holden vehicles by series with Holden, HDT, HSV and Statesman vehicles separated by different sections. This format will facilitate easy comparisons between the "K", "L", "X", etc level cars. This is useful, as the list would clearly show that the HSV Clubsport is based on the "L" level Commodore Omega.

• Separate lists for Holden, HDT, HSV and Statesman vehicles. This in my opinion would be more confusing as HDT Magnums for example would have the ambiguous model codes 8WS19 (XV4) and 8WS19 (XV4). The combined list as used currently shows that the Statesman Magnum 8WS19 (XV4) is de Ville based, and the Statesman Magnum 8WT69 (XW9) Caprice based. OSX (talk • contributions) 04:46, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I favour the single list method as I've done so in the book. This treats HDT & HSV vehicles as being options in a particular series, which is indeed what they are. I've treated Statesmans as Holdens by listing them together but titling them as they are badged. The same with the Toranas that are not badged Holdens. This way, all HQs are together, all VZs are together & so on. (Terrybebb (talk) 21:09, 2 November 2009 (UTC))

Page name

There seems to be some confusion re the use of the term Holden Special Vehicles. Holden Special Vehicles is a company which builds cars. HSV is the brand name usually applied to these cars, the exception being the Holden Commodore SS Group A SVs. Thus the page is a "List of cars built by Holden Special Vehicles" rather than a "List of Holden Special Vehicles". I propose to make a page name change to correct this situation. GTHO (talk) 10:36, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

As per WP:Common name should we then not use "List of HSV vehicles"? OSX (talk • contributions) 05:40, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm happy to go with that. GTHO (talk) 11:51, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Cool. All done. Eventually I would like to see this page merge in with List of Holden vehicles by series as per VN. However, I don't intend to finish this list anytime soon. OSX (talk • contributions) 08:31, 16 July 2013 (UTC)