Talk:List of Irish clans in Ulster

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The article List of Irish clans is getting too out of hand and if it was a full exhaustive list of all clans and septs it would be too unworkable and mad to even sift through. Thus i have decided it would be best to split it up into provinces - and as i have the references for the Ulster Irish clans i've started this specific article dealing with them.

Its only started and there are more cinels, clans and septs to come for them yet.

Mabuska (talk) 00:35, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

I think something may need to be done about Ó Bruadair. It seems to be currently thought to be a Gaelic name, rather than a Gaelicised-Norse name: see the Broderick article. Mac Lochlainn is Gaelic; same with Mac Suibhne, especially with the meaning given. Mac Seáin is from the Anglo-Norman Jehan. I wonder if this list really needs the name meanings? What is important is who Bruadar, Lachlann, Suibne, and Seáin were. Not what their names were originally derived.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:47, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

I see your point however the Mac Suibhne sept descend from Argyll chieftain Suibhne and so aren't of Irish origin. Mac Lochlainn, Mac Íomhair, Mac Laomuinn are derived from Hiberno-Norse or terms for Norse, and another name yet to be added is McQuillan (of the Route), its an Anglo-Norman Gaelicised name for the descendants of Hugelin de Mandeville, yet it can't be marked as being simply Irish as its Hiberno-Norman. Maybe use the colours to specifically note names that are Hiberno-Norse and Hibnerno-Norman etc. to clearly show names that have foreign origins. Even this page makes it clear that Ó Bruadair is of foreign origin: [1] Are we to believe that all Irish surnames are purely Gaelic with no possibility for external input or origin?

Not every Gaelic sept comes from the same origins or ancestor after all all septs are named after an ancestor's personal name and no one name was unique across the whole island. Ó Bruadair is a Donegal sept as well as a distinct sept in the south. Broderick is an Anglicisation as far as i understand used outside of Ulster. This article is dealing specifically with Ulster Irish septs. The Wiki article on the name Broderick doesn't even mention the fact the name Ó Bruadair derives from the Norse personal name Bruadar and not the Norse word Brodir. Gaelicised as Bruadar and Bruadair, which became the patronym Ó Bruadair meaning "descendant of Bruadar". The Broderick article needs fixing not this one.

Another example of different origins for the different parts of the island is your own surname MacAuley (if thats the right Anglicisation you use). In Ireland it has two origins: the Offaly and Westmeath sept of Mac Amghalghaidh; or the Ulster sept of Mac Amhlaoibh, which is derived from the Gaelic for the Norse name Olaf. The Ulster version thus could be considered Hiberno-Norse.

Bruadar, Lochlann, Suibne, and Seáin are names and unless otherwise specifically recorded in history, it's next to impossible to determine who exactly a sept based on a name descend from and so attaching importance to generic names from the times is fruitless unless a specific progenitor can be found. The origin of the names is important as it shows the external input that Gaelic culture recieved and depicts what septs are of foreign origin.

Finally the name meanings is vitally important as it helps people to know exactly what the names mean. People are interested in the origins and meanings of names, to leave it out would in my opinion be stupid.

Mabuska (talk) 00:34, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

On your surname, if your descended from the Scottish MacAuleys instead, they too can come from two distinct septs where one the MacAuleys of Lewis derive from Mac Amblaibh which is also derived from the Norse name Olaf. These MacAuleys are said to descend from the Norse Olaf the Black. The MacLeods allegedly descend from Olaf's son Leod. This means these MacAuleys and the MacLeods couldn't be considered as simply Scots-Gaelic as paternally they descend from Norse and thus if in this article was about Scottish clans, they would have be coloured to show they were more-or-less Norse-Gaels Mabuska (talk) 00:50, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Lochlainn is a Gaelic name. It isn't derived from either Norse name or a Norse term. As for as I know, there's no debate about that. Look at the Lochlann article for the origins of the word, and use as a term. I linked to the Broderick article just to show that that recently a noted historian wrote that the Gaelic Bruadar is not derived from a Norse name. Hudson noted that in 2002, your weblink is from something dated 1923. So it's a recent thing. I don't think there even is a Norse name "Bruadar" [2] (it even looks Gaelic). I think clan books tend to be sloppy on the specifics; like MacLysaght actually said that "Lochlainn" was a Norse name, and at least one on GoogleBooks makes "Bruadar" an actual Norse name (IMO MacLysaght meant that the word which Lochlainn is derived referred to a Norseman/Norway; he just got lazy and simplified this to say that name was an actual Norse word, which is a totally different thing).

The Lochlainn i realised after i wrote the above is an Irish word describing a foreigner of Norse descent, and not from any kind of Norse name so my wrong on that one.

Yep, I understand that names can have different meanings/origins. The whole MacAuley thing. There seem to be a couple Ó Bruadair families, but I haven't seen anything which suggests that they derived their name in different ways, like the Scottish/Irish MacAulays/McAuleys. The whole Bruadar-Norse/Gaelic-thing doesn't concern families, just the actual personal name, Bruadar, which the surname, Ó Bruadair, comes from. I noticed the weblink you gave doesn't mention an Ulster family, or families; it just mentions the Irish name in general. Search GoogleBooks for "Bruadar Woulfe", page 446 of Irish Names and Surnames there it mentions the five different families, and Woulfe derives their surnames from one personal name. One of the families is: "Ó Bruadair of Carraic Brachaidhe, in Inishowen, Co. Donegal, a family still in that district at the beginning of the 16th century". I guess this must be the family listed in this article.

The very O'Bruadars indeed. At least i can update that segment on their region. However the link you provided me: [3] contradicts Benjamin Hudson as he claims the Norse don't have a name Bróðir meaning brother whilst the Viking Mens Name aritcle you supplied makes it clear that they do. Also search the internet for the term Bruadar Norse and you will find many sites that explicitly state the name as being of Norse origin and a very common name at that. A quare wheen also state that the Gaelic name Bruadair comes from it.

Hudson wrote in 2002, Woulfe is early 20th century, the other stuff hasn't caught up. Clan books, meant for the popular audience, are going to be slow to catch on to things discussed in academic publications. Here's what Hudson actually wrote: "An equally interesting name in Njals saga is Brodir, which is not a Norse proper name at all. This is Irish Bruattar/Bruadar/Brodur and it first appears in the year 853 when, according to the contemporary record in the Annals of Ulster, a princeling of south-east Ireland named Bruattar mac Aeda was involved in the murder of a rival before being slain himself. (54) In Old Norse Old Norse Brodir translates as `brother' and Njals saga uses brodir to describe the relationship of Ulfr hraeda to Brian (ch. 154). (55) Other than the participant in the Battle of Clontarf, the only other Norse context in which the name is found is in 1160, when a king of Dublin named Brodur son of Porkel was killed while on a raid north of the town. Brodir had a longer circulation in Irish literature Irish literature: see Gaelic literature. . Together with Sigurdr, he appears in the twelfth-century version of Cath Ruis na Ring as Brodor Roth and Brodor Fiuit, while Sigurdr becomes Siugraid Soga, King of Sudiam (i.e. the Hebrides); they are part of a hosting that sails from the Hebrides to Ireland. (56)".--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:34, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

The meaning your source gives is "dream", but the Norse name means "brother". Look at this from Dictionary of American Family Names, Oxford University Press, ISBN 0-19-508137-4 for the surname Brothers: "Irish: Anglicization of Irish Ó Bruadair, an ancient Donegal sept name: it has also been derived, probably wrongly, from Gaelic bruadar ‘dream’, ‘reverie’". Is it a single source which says "dream" and "Norse" for the name, or are you combing several? Was it the same source which said for Suibne: "pleasant, well-disposed" and "Norse"? If it is one source, then that source is muddled up; it looks like it twice mixed up different words and names.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 09:31, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Suibhne isn't listed as a Norse name in the article - the article states that the sept are a mixture of Dalriadic Gaels and Norsemen - something very common in the Scottish Isles, no? The name Suibhne is Gaelic yet i never once stated that it was Norse so where this is coming from i don't know. Various sources make it plain and simple that Sweeney means pleasant and well-disposed - look it up yourself. Bruadar and dream come from various websites. You've mistaken my usage of Bruadar as usage of Brodir, which is a seperate name altogher as far as i'm aware. As the name Bruadair is an actual Gaelic name and to save on endless debating on alleged 'real' names, it'd be simplest to just use it.

What is the source that they were descended from Néill Caille?

The Irish annals, the source for most of the information that we know on the alleged earliest origins and alleged pedigrees of Irish clans though naturally many are no doubt tinkered and distorted to make them more grandeur. Also all sources used in this article are declared at the end of the article as Wikipedia states you should do when sources are used for most of the articles content rather than inline.

Do you know any more about them? Same with Mac Laomuinn; are they the same as the Scottish Lamonts (supposedly related to the Sweeneys), or a different family? The list says they moved to Scotland and formed Clan Lamont, is that what your source said? As far as I know Clan Lamont originated in Scotland; their eponymous ancestor is supposedly related to the Sweeney eponymous ancestor in Scotland [4].

Source - The Book of Ulster Surnames by Robert Bell, 2003 edition. The Lamonts are Scottish however they are clearly stated in listed source as originally being of Ulster stock thanks to Ladhman, son of Giolla Colum, son of Fearchar, son of Dunshleibhe O'Neill, Prince of Tyrone. Dunshleibhe O'Neill is also declared as the ancestor of the Scottish MacSweeneys and MacLachlins - which corroborates your statement that they are supposedly related.

Funnily enough the website you provided for the Lamonts actually backs my source up as it gives the following pedigree for the Lamonts eponym Laumon: Laumon - Malcom - Ferchar - Donnsleibhe. Only difference being Malcom instead of Giolla Colum - unless Colum and Malcolm correspond to each other.

Donnsleibhe, Laumon, and Suibne were Scottish, not Irish. They are all are said to descend from Anrothan who supposedly went to Argyll in the 11-12th century. I think you skipped too lightly over Sellar's article. Sellar noted that Donnsleibhe doesn't figure into contemporary records, he wasn't a prince, he was supposedly the son of Aodh Alainn an Buirrche, son of Anrothan, son of Aodh Athlamhan, son of Flaithbertach Ua Néill. The family is Scottish, in the same way the Sweeneys are Scottish, the founders were from Argyll. Laumon appears in contemporary records in Argyll. I think the claim of "Ulster stock" by the Lamonts is from Anrothan, not from Laumon.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 09:03, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

I think the list singles out the origin of a surname too much. Like it makes the clan seem to have a different character than the ones next to it. Some families may have had a different character, like maybe the gallowglass Sweeneys, but we can't just imply it by the origin of their surname in the list. I think people can draw too much from surnames. They may hint at the parentage of the man who actually bore that personal name, but that doesn't mean they necessarily reflect the 'culture', or 'identity', or 'character' of his family or his descendants. The surname only refers to the father of one man out of countless men in the line. For example, are the McShanes thought to be less "Irish", or more "Norman", or any different than other O'Neills, because their surname is derived from a Gaelicised Anglo-Norman personal name? No. How about putting the Irish surname, etymology, and common Anglicised forms in one column (though leave the clan name where it is). I think the colour-coding should be used for family origins, rather than surname origins. Like Norman families, maybe a slightly different colour for the Scottish incomers like Sweeney. Or maybe I'm muddled up, was that what you intended? The legend needs clarifying.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 09:04, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

It is what i intended however the origin of the names has somewhat seeped into my intentions, yet i agree that they should be used for the family origins, i.e. Scotland, Norman etc. were they are proven to be of foreign origin as after all anyone can choose a foreign name for a non-foreign person.

Having the Irish surname, etymology, and common Anglicised forms in one column would look ghastly. The layout is far more sufficient and readable than the List of Irish clans article in my opinion. Would this layout do for articles on the clans and septs for the other provinces? I have edited the article on the lines of actual family origin.

Out of curiousity i never had the Mac Seáin listed as being non-Irish, was that just you emphasising the point? Mabuska (talk) 15:20, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Me neither, but their name originates from an Anglo-Norman one, that's all. I'm going to put Mac Néill as being Scottish; if Mac Laomuinn refers to the Scottish Lamonts, then they ought to be coloured 'Scottish' as well (see my reply to you above). The supposed eponymous ancestors of those clans were from Scotland. The other clan list actually deals more with the clans; like it has the title of their chiefs, and lists branches, and all that. This one should include that. The "extra" section is too small for all the text. We've got three columns on names, and only one on the clan itself ("extra"), so something needs to be done with them.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:01, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes your right, looking at my book, it makes it clear MacNeill is a sept of Scottish, though originally of Irish stock which led to me not having them coloured in which i think they should be. I also agree with your arguement about MacLamont - maybe Irish ancestry but the sept itself arose in Scotland. Must make that distinction clearer for myself.

I agree that the extra column is too small - maybe merge the meaning and sept name together? Maybe like this: Mac Conmidhe (hound of Meath), but with it moved to the line below the name with the column header making it clear its: Sept name (meaning)

Mabuska (talk) 10:56, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

I like that idea because it makes sense to me to have a foreign language word and it's literal meaning in the same column. But where would the Anglicised forms go, it may be too crowded to put them in one column. The way how you've got the newer clans works well: Irish and Anglicised forms in one column, meaning and progenitor in the other. The only thing is the meaning and progenitor don't really fit together. But obviously we've only got so much space to work with. The list is looking really good, lots of information.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 06:12, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I know what you mean about the meaning and progenitor but if i stuck them all in the same column as territory and extras the page would end up far longer looking than would be desirable. I agree about the Anglicised forms as some have far too many such as the Mac Cathmhaoil sept, where i've just included the most common variants in the first column, however have included the lesser variants for posterity and completeness in the extras column in an attempt to keep it readable. The longer territory column will actually allow me to expand the information on territories to be more specific. Mabuska (talk) 12:04, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Irish Clans?

I need your opinion on this Brianann MacAmhlaidh - this article is about Irish clans in Ulster, however i keep finding myself not sure of whether or not to include Scottish clans/septs that ancestrally descend from an Irish clan as the article is suppossed to be about Irish clans in Ulster - and i'm not sure whether Scottich clans that can be traced originally to Ulster by some ancestor and then emerged in Scotland before migrating to Ulster falls into this category? Would Gaelic clans in Ulster have been a better title as that allows scope for Scots-Gaelic? Or should the Scottish clans be left out? When it comes to the Gallowglasses i'm not worried about their inclusion as many did become septs of Irish clans in Ulster, however Plantation of Ulster Scots-Gaelic clan names i am worried about as when they came over they didn't really become septs to any Irish clans - for example the Border-Reiver families. In fact by then the sept/clan thing had sorta died out. Whats your opinion? Mabuska (talk) 13:56, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Sorted it out myself. This article will only include those Scottish septs that became linked or part of Irish septs/clans - specifically Gallowglass and associated septs. Mabuska (talk) 16:02, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Adding something into this article?

To prevent every tom, dick, and harry inputting their own unique Anglicised variation of an Ulster Irish clan/sept name, i think it would be best that only those that are sourced as being Anglicisations of a specific Ulster Irish sept be included - and at that only thoose that are recognised as being distinctly Ulster Irish, for example not an Anglicisation of a Leinster Irish sept name that isn't used in a unrelated Ulster sept of same/similar name.

On that could anyone wanting to add in their own unique variation please declare a verifiable source for it? Even put it up in here beforehand if you wish.

Another reason for this is because just because it may seem like an obvious Anglicisation of an Irish sept that has similar Anglicisations, it might actually be an Anglicisation belonging to another sept. Mabuska (talk) 22:25, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Proposal to split article in seperate articles

If anyone cares i think it might be more appropriate to split this article up into several smaller articles as its not even half way done and its massively long. Each different main dynasty such as the Northern Ui Neill and the clans of the three Collas could easily go on their own articles with this on being used as the main general overview article for them. Mabuska (talk) 17:21, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

          I would agree with this, maybe having this article more as a table instead of having all the information.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.76.82.171 (talk) 09:03, 1 April 2020 (UTC) 

Comments and an essential reference

This is a welcome effort to describe a difficult but important subject. Several points. 1. An essential reference is Séamus Ó Ceallaigh, "Gleanings from Ulster History" (2nd edition, 1994, with additions by Nollaig Ó Muraíle). 2. Far too much importance is attached to the Irish/Scottish distinction, which is relatively modern — these were simply Gaelic clanns. 3. For Ó Duibhín (Devine), see also http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~oduibhin/duibhin.htm 4. For anglicisations (which is best treated as a separate subject), see also http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~oduibhin/sloinnte_ultacha.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.162.55.70 (talk) 13:17, 2 July 2021 (UTC)