Talk:List of Mennonites
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Sorry I'll back off now and let others take over the list from here on in.--T. Anthony 09:18, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Editing
editThis is ridiculous They should have a separate area for people with Mennonite roots and actual Mennonites.
- At first the entire list was solely people that were Mennonite as far as I knew. I quit Wikipedia for a month and a half as I think the basic idea of it is flawed. During my time off the list degraded enough I felt the need to return. I guess that's too much like a proprietor of me, but oh well. I'll try to separate "Mennonite background" names out when I know it's just background.--T. Anthony 03:13, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
- Okay I took some names off and moved some to "Mennonite background." When adding names please have a source or note to justify the addition. Also if you feel more names should be moved to just being in the "background" do so. If you're wrong someone can provide the evidence and fix it.--T. Anthony 03:39, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Cindy Klassen, Oops!
editThe Wikipedia article wasn't that clear and mostly just described her as being of Mennonite ancestry. I've got to learn to not look such stuff up on Wikipedia alone. Anyway thanks Sam.--T. Anthony 00:02, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
What makes a person a Mennonite?
editI think that US Mennonites constitute an ethnicity. In my opinion, playing the game of determining a person's subjective beliefs and comparing the beliefs to some abstract list of doctrines is an absurd thing to do. Hay4 07:46, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
- Uhh no. Mennonites are an actual religion. What makes a person a Mennonite is being of the Mennonite faith. They aren't an ethnic-religion either, you might be thinking of the Amish, as there are Mennonites who are Vietnamese and maybe even Africans. Religions actually exist and have members. It's not necessary to try to "mind-read" how sincere or orthodox they come out as.--T. Anthony 16:38, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
- "Mennonites are an actual religion." I wasn't challenging this.
- "What makes a person a Mennonite is being of the Mennonite faith." This is precisely what I'm challenging.
- "They aren't an ethnic-religion either, you might be thinking of the Amish..." Redundant for part one and no for part two. I'm quite aware of the Mennonites as I grew up a Mennonite. I'm thinking more of a comparison to Mormons or Jews. The US Mennonite church, like the two mentioned groups, is an insular community of interpretation with its own beliefs, history, and traditions.
- "there are Mennonites who are Vietnamese and maybe even Africans." Irrelevant. I specifically limited the discussion to US Mennonites.
- "Religions actually exist and have members." On one level this is obvious and not interesting. On another level, the statement may be challenged. For the atheist or anthropologist, religions are mere abstractions and therefore don't really exist in a metaphysical sense. This is the point of view I would endorse. I'm not sure this point even registers with you.
- "It's not necessary to try to 'mind-read' how sincere or orthodox they come out as." Why not? How do you know a self-proclaimed Mennonite isn't really an atheist who attends Mennonite services for personal gain? You can't know for sure. Thus, you can never say who "really" is a Mennonite given your standards. Hay4 17:52, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
- Oh all right. If you were Mennonite define it however you want I guess as long as you recognize you might have your own biases on the matter. The former Mennonite I knew was of a religion or possibly a culture. She wasn't an ethnicity, she was just a white person.--T. Anthony 17:56, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
- A secular Mennonite is not ethnically Jewish-American or Italian-American or Irish-American or Ukrainian-American. A secular Mennonite is ethnically Mennonite. COnsider the example of a Jew that is raised Jewish, attends a Hebrew school, socializes with Jews, attends Brandeis, etc. etc. If the person stops believing in God, he doesn't automatically become a "generic white." The person is still ethnically Jewish. The same is true for a Mennonite that stops believing in God. Hay4 18:04, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
- Do you have evidence of this? I think comparing it to Jewish is a rather strong claim and not something I'd accept on your say so. You might want to weigh in at Talk:Mennonite#Ethnic group. Anyway I do leave the article to you, but I think I won't be the last person to disagree with you.--T. Anthony 19:47, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
- A secular Mennonite is not ethnically Jewish-American or Italian-American or Irish-American or Ukrainian-American. A secular Mennonite is ethnically Mennonite. COnsider the example of a Jew that is raised Jewish, attends a Hebrew school, socializes with Jews, attends Brandeis, etc. etc. If the person stops believing in God, he doesn't automatically become a "generic white." The person is still ethnically Jewish. The same is true for a Mennonite that stops believing in God. Hay4 18:04, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
- Oh all right. If you were Mennonite define it however you want I guess as long as you recognize you might have your own biases on the matter. The former Mennonite I knew was of a religion or possibly a culture. She wasn't an ethnicity, she was just a white person.--T. Anthony 17:56, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Eisenhower has Mennonite ancestry
editEisenhower's ancestor, Hans Nicol Eisenhauer, was a Mennonite who migrated from Switzerland to Lancaster, Pennsylvania in 1741. Shouldn't we include him in the section that lists people with Mennonite ancestry? Hay4 17:59, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
- Because Eisenhower had Mennonite ancestry, I will move his information the apprpriate section unless there are convincing objections. Hay4 18:33, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
- This was probably a mistake as having an ancestor from the eighteenth century wouldn't even make you one of the Native Americans in the United States in most circles. That's if Mennonite is to be compared to an ethnicity and it's not one.--T. Anthony 16:41, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not saying Eisenhower was himself a Mennonite, I'm saying he has Mennonite ancestry. Thus, your analogy to the Native American situation is off the mark. Please explain to me why Eisenhower shouldn't be included in the section with people who have Mennonite ancestry. BTW I think US Mennonites are an ethnicity, but that's beside the point. Hay4 17:30, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
- It's just if you have to go back to an ancestor from centuries before his birth then anyone can be on any list of any kind. The ancestry deal was not really meant for any distant ancestry deal. I'd personally prefer it be removed than misused in this way.--T. Anthony 17:42, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
- To say it's misused is already a conclusion. You must provide reasons and not merely conclusions. I think it's just a useful addition and should stay. As long as there are no misrepresentations, I don't see the problem. Anyway, it doesn't go back "centuries" but rather about 150 years. Hay4 17:55, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
- Even if I were to accept it as an ethnicity why would it still count after a 150 years? Is this some kind of "Mennonite one-drop" rule? I just don't understand what you mean.--T. Anthony 17:57, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
- It's not a one-drop rule. It's very simple: if someone notable has an ancestor that self-identified as Mennonite, then he may be included on the list. That's it. I'm not sure why this troubles you. Hay4 17:59, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
- Because the implications are obviously strange and complicated. You really don't see that? I'm trying to see how you could not see that. Basically if your point is that there should never have been a "by ancestry" section I say "point taken" and I'm willing to remove it. If you honestly are saying ancestry of 100 years ago or more matters than this is bizarre and overcomplicates everything in Category:Lists of American people by ethnic or national origin. Most people have some stray ancestors from dozens of ethnicities down the line. (Not that I'm conceding Mennonites even are an ethnicity) How many different kinds of people would we have to put Eisenhower himself in?--T. Anthony 18:10, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
- We don't have to worry about other lists. All we need to worry about is this list. And, when considering this list, I don't think the stadards I laid out are a problem because I don't think there are a lot of notable people with Mennonite ancestry. Hay4 18:17, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
- Okay. I guess I'll just leave it to you then. (Or to you and whoever else ends up thinking you're overboard, whichever happens)--T. Anthony 18:23, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
- We don't have to worry about other lists. All we need to worry about is this list. And, when considering this list, I don't think the stadards I laid out are a problem because I don't think there are a lot of notable people with Mennonite ancestry. Hay4 18:17, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
- Because the implications are obviously strange and complicated. You really don't see that? I'm trying to see how you could not see that. Basically if your point is that there should never have been a "by ancestry" section I say "point taken" and I'm willing to remove it. If you honestly are saying ancestry of 100 years ago or more matters than this is bizarre and overcomplicates everything in Category:Lists of American people by ethnic or national origin. Most people have some stray ancestors from dozens of ethnicities down the line. (Not that I'm conceding Mennonites even are an ethnicity) How many different kinds of people would we have to put Eisenhower himself in?--T. Anthony 18:10, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
- It's not a one-drop rule. It's very simple: if someone notable has an ancestor that self-identified as Mennonite, then he may be included on the list. That's it. I'm not sure why this troubles you. Hay4 17:59, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
- Even if I were to accept it as an ethnicity why would it still count after a 150 years? Is this some kind of "Mennonite one-drop" rule? I just don't understand what you mean.--T. Anthony 17:57, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
- To say it's misused is already a conclusion. You must provide reasons and not merely conclusions. I think it's just a useful addition and should stay. As long as there are no misrepresentations, I don't see the problem. Anyway, it doesn't go back "centuries" but rather about 150 years. Hay4 17:55, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
- It's just if you have to go back to an ancestor from centuries before his birth then anyone can be on any list of any kind. The ancestry deal was not really meant for any distant ancestry deal. I'd personally prefer it be removed than misused in this way.--T. Anthony 17:42, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not saying Eisenhower was himself a Mennonite, I'm saying he has Mennonite ancestry. Thus, your analogy to the Native American situation is off the mark. Please explain to me why Eisenhower shouldn't be included in the section with people who have Mennonite ancestry. BTW I think US Mennonites are an ethnicity, but that's beside the point. Hay4 17:30, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Milton Hershey
editI fail to see how Milton Hershey could qualify as a praticing Mennonite. During World War Two the Hershey company made chocolate for the US army(they still do), the project required the development of a new recipe, and Milton Hershey supported that project and supplied chocolate to the US army. This goes against Mennoite teachings. While Hershey was born and raised Mennontie, I doubt he continued to be one. Samuel 22:50, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
- Mennonites are pacifist, but I don't know that they have rules against selling food or candy to soldiers. Do you have a source for it being against their doctrine to do so? (That said I'm not sure he stayed Mennonite either)--T. Anthony 01:18, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, well, selling things to the army supports the army, not a pacifast thing to do. This link might help. Samuel 20:02, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
- I'd think there'd be some possibility of debate about whether selling candy to soldiers is participating in war or military adventures, which is what that's about. If Hershey was selling them weapons then yeah I don't see how he could be a Mennonite. However pacifist churches have provided food or medicine to soldiers in wars. Again though I don't know if he stayed or not, but supplying chocolate sounds like a gray area to this non-Mennonite. Still it's your religion so you probably know best.--T. Anthony 22:36, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
- How does supporting the military make one not a Mennonite? Hay4 04:13, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
- Please tell me more about these "Mennonite teachings" that you referenced. It it permissible for a Mennonite to vote given that any president will command the military? What about paying taxes? Does paying taxes make one not a Mennonite given that taxes go toward supporting the military? Do you pay taxes? What about accepting police portection? Do you accept police protection? Why do you think you can judge who is authentically "Mennonite" based on one purported belief? Hay4 01:47, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Hershey seems to take his fathers side and I can't really seem to find anything talking about his faith. HE did marry an Irish girl ( a little unusal for Mennonites of the time).[1] Samuel 22:00, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
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