Talk:List of National Historic Landmarks in New Jersey

Finished updating

If you'd like to help now, please start fleshing out the articles. Especially in adding photos. Thanks dm (talk) 06:32, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Wow, Dmadeo, you have been busy, to have developed out this list completely with respect to itemizing and providing brief descriptions for all 55 NHLs in NJ, and having created at least a stub article for each one. And I count you have added about 35 photos. Of those about 27 are pics of the NHL sites, while 8 are photos of a famous person associated with a given house. And I know you went and took many of those photos yourself. I had noticed your announcements of new NJ NHL articles, but was not watching this list-article and did not realize you were going all out to get this completed out. Nice work!

Overall the list looks great, and by the proposed standard for quality rating of List-Type-Articles of NRHP sites, it seems to me that it should just about be rated Start class now, but perhaps just a few edits first would make it more self-evident that all the Start requirements there are met. Perhaps some front matter and some ending matter statements and links need to be added? As for documenting that that this is a complete list, I see you have a link to the PDF of New Jersey NHLs, but if you don't mind I would link instead to the nation-wide bigger PDF, which includes its own front matter including version date information. (I used to think that referencing the state-specific version was better, but Ipoellet argued otherwise and convinced me, in a discussion within the Talk page of the List of National Historic Landmarks in California.) And I think the kind of column-header footnotes that appear in the NY NHL list and other NHL lists would help make clear that this meets general wikipedia verifiability standards (which I believe it does meet). I assume it's okay for me to do some edits along these lines? Again, nice work. doncram (talk) 17:13, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I dont claim ownership :) You've been making all of the states more uniform, which I have been paying as much attention to. Please feel free to make whatever edits are required. I'll start looking at the intro paragraphs next. Thanks for taking a look dm (talk) 00:04, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Okay, well i just added some front matter, column header footnotes, and end matter. The introduction asserts that the article covers all the NHLs in New Jersey, and "equivalent" landmarks. I would like to add a section to cover the history-oriented National Park Service units in New Jersey, which appear to be just Edison National Historic Site, Morristown National Historic Park (or is it Morristown National Historical Park?), and Statue of Liberty National Monument (shared with New York). These 3 are listed at end of the NJ01.PDF listing of NJ NHLs. Are you agreeable to having that section added?

Sure, that makes sense. I didnt like the longer list in the NY article but in this one, 4 extra items wont hurt at all dm (talk) 04:50, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Assume you are referring to the list of 37 or so New York State Historic Sites. I moved that out of the NYS NHL list, after trying to develop articles and finding that many did not seem to have a national character to their historic landmark nature, contrary to my expectations. I did add a historic NPS areas section, which has 13 entries needing descriptions and perhaps some other development. Actually, could you help with some of those (some in NYC, many Roosevelt ones not far from NYC)? I would hope we would work together on those first, or in parallel, with more development of the NJ NHLs. doncram (talk) 12:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

It was easier to do than I expected. Among other things accomplished, the article now asserts that this is a complete list, by stating that there are 55 NHLs and then listing 55 of them. I am just upgrading the article to Start now. Do you want to announce this in the new article announcements at WP:NRHP? I have been announcing list-articles when I got them to Start level, including mention of how many NHLs are covered. Please do announce it, just for sake of exposure of the article. It is always nice to attract others to contribute. Again, it looks nice. doncram (talk) 00:59, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

FYI, I would also add a section on any former NHLs in NJ, if there are any. There are no de-designations of NJ NHLs within the National Historic Landmark program's list of de-designations, however. So only if there was an NHL ship that was in New Jersey, but has moved elsewhere, would there be any need for such a section. Do you know of any? doncram (talk) 01:32, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Nope, didnt see any record of such. dm (talk) 04:50, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Fixed the County pages (and created stubs for the ones that didnt exist). Put in some better intro text, but it obviously still needs more. The article was already announced in "new articles" when I finished it. Thanks! dm (talk) 04:47, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh okay i see now. Thank u. doncram (talk) 12:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

what is to be done in the NHL articles

I kinda like Dmadeo's minimalist style in creating the articles that were missing, and now the list-article itself is quite nice, but most of the NHL articles it indexes could use some development (as Dmadeo acknowledges). What is to be done, in my view, is to go through all 55 in a couple systematic sweeps, using the following recipe. Here are all of my secrets. No one will pay me for them, so I will try to give them away. I am hoping Dmadeo may choose to try to apply this recipe, but it is open for any other editor. The 3-sweep recipe:

1. Verify that they all have NRHP/NHL infoboxes. If not, paste in from from Elkman NRHP infobox generator. I prefer to also paste in the street address if there is one showing in the Elkman report (next to, but not included automatically in the infobox). And I also paste in alternative names that it reports for some sites.

2. Add NHL date to NRHP infobox, add NHL webpage link, add NRHP text/photo PDF links (if available), add HABS external link (if available). I would do this by opening one browser window to the NHL summaries search screen, one browser window to the HABS/HAER search screen, and then pasting the following into the article:

BEGIN TEXT1 TO PASTE (YOU MUST BEGIN AN EDIT OF THIS ENTIRE TALK PAGE TO ACCESS THIS)

| designated= [[]], 19

It was declared a National Historic Landmark in 19__.

External links

• __: __ photos, __ drawings, and __data pages , at Historic American Building Survey

END TEXT1 TO PASTE

Then edit as makes sense:

• For the NHL summary, fill out the date, URL, NHL program title for the site. Move to the appropriate place in the NRHP infobox (just before the "added=" row)
• For the NRHP text/photo PDF links, replace two occurences of __REFNUM__ within URLs by the NRHP reference number from the infobox. Then hit preview, and the URLs will usually be valid, and you can bring up the PDF files and fill out the rest of the NRHP PDF footnote. Delete the NRHP PDF footnote (or just the photo part) if in fact there are no NRHP text (and photo) documents available. Get the author who prepared the Inventory-Nomination, and the preparation date from Section 11 of the PDF text document. Oh, if it is titled "National Historic Landmark Nomination", then use that term instead of "National Register of Historic Places Inventory-Nomination" in the title of the document.
• For HABS, note the number formatted like NJ0000 that displays in the browser window title and edit "nj0000" within the URL accordingly. Paste in the HABS title for the site, and enter counts of photos, drawings, and data pages available.

3. Go through all the talk pages, pasting in the following text and editing out what does not apply. Paste the whole following text in, but cut out the last line and paste it into the edit summary before saving

Update: I went through all 55 and added Wikiproject New Jersey and Wikiproject NRHP to each article's Talk page, and added the photo request to some of them. The photo request statement doesn't make sense in some cases, as i did not strike out lines which did not apply (as I do not know what NRHP photos are available, for example). doncram (talk) 01:41, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

BEGIN TEXT2 TO PASTE (YOU MUST BEGIN AN EDIT OF THIS ENTIRE TALK PAGE TO ACCESS THIS)

Photos

Photos and/or photo uploads are needed.

• The article includes one picture but more would illustrate the article better.
• HABS or HAER photos may be available for this site. Search HABS/HAER here
• Some of the NRHP photos in PDF linked in article are labelled as NPS owned and/or are taken by NPS employee, hence probably public domain and can be used. Separate JPG files for the photos may be accessed from the National Register search screen here
• NRHP photos linked in article are credited to non-NPS persons or entities and appear NOT to be public domain.
• NRHP photos seem not to be available on-line for this site.
• New photos would be helpful.

add to wikiprojects and make photo request

END TEXT2 TO PASTE

Then edit out the lines that don't apply for the given article.

It would be possible to execute the 3 above sweeps separately, going through all the articles with each one. Or one could pass just once through all the articles, implementing all 3 steps in each article.

There, that's all of my secrets, spilled! Is this understandable? Is this doable? Please ask questions if you have any. I suppose you could just ask me to do the sweeps through the NJ NHLs, but I would really prefer to work on some other projects instead. Can someone try to do a couple of sites along these lines, at least? Cheers, doncram (talk) 21:21, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Commented out the templated {{reqphoto}} above since the items listed now have photos and it is adding a photo request marker to all sites on the OSM/Google/Bing map of all requested photos. —Mr. Matté (^Talk/_Contrib) 02:32, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Some articles indexed are not NRHPs

It seems like some articles indexed are not NRHPs. Cape May, New Jersey, is about the entire town, which may differ from the Cape May Historic District. There are a couple colleges and a private school or two which may have a historic building, but the whole college is not a NHRP. I noticed this while going through trying to add WP:NRHP to the talk pages of each article. There is one private school that is B-class rated, within Wikiproject schools, but there is no NRHP mention in the article, so then it is all messed up with rating. I put in Stub class for NRHP for that one, but there's a bot which goes around and will probably upgrade it to B-class, as that is the highest rating given by any project. Some of the problem articles should be dealt with by splitting out a separate NRHP article, making sure that it is linked from the school or whatever article. I am done for now though. doncram (talk) 01:47, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Photos: i want to delete the remaining portrait pics

I just deleted several of the photos that were merely portraits of a famous person, not photos of the NHL site associated with that person, in favor of notes that HABS pics are available and ready to upload for those sites. I added specific HABS links to each of the corresponding articles.

Further, I want to delete the remaining portrait photos, as they are not pics of the sites. I used to think otherwise, but now i don't like to have these around as "placeholders" because: 1) they are misleading to readers who would expect larger versions of them to appear in the corresponding articles (yet they are so unrelated to the sites that the article editors do not want them in the articles), and 2) they tend to deter photo-takers and photo-uploaders who might provide what is needed. Note, specifically, that KudzuVine came by and seems to have been deterred by the portrait photos. KudzuVine, who has done fine work finding and uploading HABS pics in many NHL list-articles, visited this list-article and added HABS pics for several of the blank photo sites in a flurry, but did not search for and find the HABS pics that were available for several having portrait photos instead.

If there are no objections, i will delete them.... Thanks! doncram (talk) 17:26, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Dates

The date field is sorting alphabetically not chronologically. Can anyone fix? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 22:06, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

The June 1, 1998 will sort properly with most browsers.... dm (talk) 22:13, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Correction - 1 June, 1998 should sort properly, I thought we had already reversed this... dm (talk) 22:18, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

• It is sorting by abc with zeros coming first, see the table of age of Presidents for how it needs to be done. The dates have to go in "1976-07-04" then have them display as regular dates next to that. This way the year is the first thing the sort function encounters. This is a function of the data in the table, and has nothing to do with the browser. See List of United States Presidents by age --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 22:22, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I have fixed it so it is working now, I just have to go through the whole table now. The dates were put in a multitude of ways so that even the abc sorting wasn't working. Some had months first, some had day first, some were padded with zeros and others weren't. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 22:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Thats because we were editing on top of each other. I was putting it in the same order as List of National Historic Landmarks in New York and the other NHL lists so that they are all the same. I'd suggest that's the best way to go forward... dm (talk) 22:37, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the date format used in the List of NHLs in NY and other NHL lists ([[04 Jul]] [[1961]] etc.) is not correct. I am responsible for the problem, i guess. I thot it works, and it does work for me and those wikipedians who have their date preferences set as i do. But, it needs to be converted pretty much as Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) is doing, so it is date-sortable by everyone. However, i prefer to use the "dts" date-sortable template, to use less keystrokes in these list-tables. See List of NHLs in MO which is done with the DTS2 template, each date in format {{dts2|11|13|1966}}, which generates what Richard is putting in more laboriously. That way when we edit we don't need to have all the duplication in our faces, and it prevents discrepancies between the hidden and displayed dates, and it keeps the list-article file-size smaller. doncram (talk) 00:22, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

• Almost all the tables don't use the proper date formats. However a quick test of {{dts2|11|13|1966}}, had it not sort properly, if I change just one. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 00:47, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

USS New Jersey (BB62)

The article on the Iowa-class battleship USS New Jersey, which is moored on the Delaware River in Camden, NJ, says that it is a National Historic Landmark, but it does not appear on this list. Shouldn't it be on this list? DThomsen (talk) 00:39, 15 March 2009 (UTC)Dthomsen8

Ah, good question, glad you're out there looking. It seems to me that the USS New Jersey (BB-62) is listed on the U.S. National Register of Historic Places, but it is not further designated a National Historic Landmark, which is different. I just tried adding an NRHP infobox to the article, while i was there. The ship does appear as it should in the list-article National Register of Historic Places listings in Camden County, New Jersey, although that list-article could really use some development, adding descriptions and pics and so on. Another list-article perhaps of interest is List of NHL ships, reporting no NHL ships in NJ. doncram (talk) 00:56, 15 March 2009 (UTC)