Talk:List of Natural Hygienists

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Dchmelik what evidence do you have that Dean Ornish, Neal D. Barnard, T. Colin Campbell, Joel Fuhrman, John Robbins (author), John A. McDougall are orthopaths? I have never seen any references that describe any of these as orthopaths. None of these men have ever written on the subject. Psychologist Guy (talk) 18:27, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Dchmelik in regard to your edit [1] the National Health Association (NHA, formerly the American Natural Hygiene (NH) Society) does not list any of the people you added to Wikipedia. The list of founders can be found here [2]. There is no evidence any of the people above are orthopaths. Psychologist Guy (talk) 20:30, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Look harder; in fact they all have some/many times--mostly for decades--in the Health Science magazine and at conferences by National Health Association (NHA, formerly American Natural Hygiene Society, ANHS, started by Orthopathy founder Dr Shelton) and its website, and their own texts (articles, books, studies, websites) largely including the same subject matter.--dchmelik (t|c) 20:33, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

The National Health Association (formerly the American Natural Hygiene Society) is a pseudoscience organization. Their "magazine" is not a reliable source for anything, but I looked it up and yes they interviewed some of the people you mentioned about their plant-based diet but this does not prove anything. List of orthopaths is a list of orthopaths, not people who happened to once be interviewed in a magazine. We need reliable references for such a person to be an orthopath. We know for example that Isaac Jennings was an orthopath because we have many references for that. Dean Ornish etc are not working orthopaths nor have endorsed such a thing. It's stupid to claim otherwise, they are not practicing natural hygiene. Psychologist Guy (talk) 20:40, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

ANHS/NHA is mostly higher academic scientists including doctors of standard medicine (MDs, doctors of osteopathy, DOs) & philosophy (PhD). You're stuck in false semantics; Dr Isaac Jennings was in Nature Cure (NC) and predated (and died before) NH/'Orthopathy' but advocated the (partial/precursor) main ideas so it's clear, as is pretty clear with everyone I added: they study/advocate (do texts, studies, videos on) healthy vegeterian/vegan lifestyle, medical fasting (the main ideas.) You deleted an ANHS Executive Director Jay Dinshah (everyone in American Vegan Society in his day knew he also ran ANHS and worked with Dr Michael Klaper) and deleted NHA staff member Dr Klaper (who studied/advocated main ideas for decades and also did at least one NHA video.) Two other publicly-official experts are: NHA Expert: Dr Michael Greger, NHA Expert: Dr Joel Fuhrman (also did at least one video.) All whom I added study/advocate the main ideas. The only reason it's not 'list of Natural Hygienists' is because in recent years there's also The Hygiene Hypothesis (NH) but basically no one talks about 'Orthopathy' rather than NC/H or health. Seems you haven't investigated the subject much at all (and have extreme biase.) I grew up with NH, and it's been extremely helpful for me and friends/family, and I even talked to a couple people mentioned (and other experts.)--dchmelik (t|c) 02:23, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

You have been told multiple times that healthscience.org is not a reliable source. We need reliable independent sources describing people as orthopaths or natural hygienists to add them to this list. The Michael Greger healthscience link you gave basically lists some recipes of his, nowhere does it describe him as a working orthopath. I have found some reliable sources describing Jay Dinshah as a natural hygienist so yes he should be added to the list, but that is how Wikipedia works adding reliable sources. This article is not about if natural hygiene has personally helped you or your family. Psychologist Guy (talk) 17:51, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

ANHS/NHA (and their magazines, web-pages/-sites) is run by higher academic scientists including doctors of standard medicine (MDs, doctors of osteopathy, DOs) & philosophy (PhD): utmost reliable real science (and cutting-edge). People who can't realize/learn why aren't reliable nor worth listening to on likely anything. If one actually was a MD/PhD themselves one could disagree yet not likely refute an entire organization of other doctors on zero basis (not even an argument but you tried with zero known authority and failed as even would a doctor without making scientific statement); calling higher academic scientists 'pseudoscientists' isn't a scientific statement/basis argument, just name-calling on Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement and simply (c)rude/crass, worthless/biased, 100% irrelevant ignorance. I hope you can do better in future (go six steps up in the hierarchy') and apologize to the doctors you libelled.--dchmelik (t|c) 15:38, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

The National Health Association (formerly the American Natural Hygiene Society) is clearly not a science organization, it's stupid that you are arguing that here. Some of the MDs you are talking about have been interviewed by the National Health Association but there is no evidence they are involved with the Association so you are adding original research when you claim these people are orthopaths. There are no MDs on the board of directors of the NHA [3], the President is an ex-lawyer, he has no training in medicine or nutrition. You have not provided any evidence that the NHA is a reliable source that we can use on Wikipedia. If you actually do some historical research into the ANHS/NHA you can see that it was not only founded by Herbert M. Shelton but Christopher Gian-Cursio [4]. Christopher Gian-Cursio was not a qualified physician, similar to Shelton he was a naturopath. Gian-Cursio was tried and sentenced to prison for five years for manslaughter through culpable negligence [5]. I would like to expand this article but we can only do it through reliable sources. Psychologist Guy (talk) 18:55, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Unreliable references

Dchmelik now adding unreliable sources. Vegsource is not RS but even this source does not mention orthopathy. [6] Psychologist Guy (talk) 01:22, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Nonsense/lies. Someone added those sources in Michael Klaper's own article years ago, which I copied in and the news was he worked at True North Health Center (NC/H centre associated with NHA; run by one of their directors/doctors/orthopaths on their International Association of Hygienic Physicians (IAHP, NC/H) list.) I'm done for today but it's unfortunate biased people ruin a lot of Wikipedia.--dchmelik (t|c)

You have an issue with WP:OR, everything you add is either personal opinion, original research or unreliable. Find a reliable source that describes Michael Klaper as a working orthopath (natural hygienist). The sources you added or copied are well out of date and they do not demonstrate that Klaper is an orthopath. Psychologist Guy (talk) 17:42, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Absolute nonsense; I've even created articles/etc. and been thanked--by long-time users & administrators--for creations/edits/citations/references. You have an odd notion what 'out of date' is.--dchmelik (t|c) 07:32, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Do you check your own edits? This is just one example of an unreliable source you were adding to this article from 2009 [7]. Firstly vegsource is not a reliable source but even this source does not mention Michael Klaper as being a natural hygienist or orthopath. It's an interview from 2009 and Klaper does not mention it. Nor do any of the other sources you added. So not only are you adding original research, you are adding unreliable content. Please read WP:OR. Psychologist Guy (talk) 18:34, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

International Association of Hygienic Physicians (IAHP)

International Association of Hygienic Physicians (IAHP) webpage moved since years ago and has listed many others (some previously) and been updated. Some may disagree what a physician is, nevertheless this currently lists several (and used to list others) standard medicine medical doctors (MDs/ODs, not all such recent qualifications listed). Sure, Dr Klaper's staff page was hidden, but members of this list had to sign up and--if certified--go through training (it's not a list whom ANHS/NHA thinks are Natural Hygienists, though if was, would be accurate).--dchmelik (t|c) 15:36, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

You have been told this many times, the International Association of Hygienic Physicians is a primary source, and not a reliable source for Wikipedia see WP:RS. We need independent secondary sources if we are going to add people to this list. If you can find a reliable source that says Michael Greger or Michael Klaper is a natural hygienist or orthopath then they can be added to the list but you have not provided any reliable sources. Psychologist Guy (talk) 18:21, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Founder/namer ND/DC Herbert Shelton was the only true/literal primary source, which American Natural Hygiene (NH) Society (ANHS) (now National Health Association (NHA)) & IAHP reverted from his final ideas decades ago: they're among secondary-to-tertiary sources, including any continued British society (and some vegetarian/vegan societies... American Vegan Society published some Shelton's books) and all eminently reliable (NH societies moreso, because scientists whom care about health, which vegetarians don't necessarily, and scientists drop ideas that seem outdated, but vegetarians don't necessarily). Even if was primary (and ND/DC Shelton's case) 'WP:primary does not mean bad'.

Clearly I didn't mean Drs Greger, Klaper: not (currently) on IAHP list, but those who are. I don't start articles on any scientists not in mathematics/logic/exact/formal science.

Completely incoherent, it's hard to tell if you are a troll or you actually may suffer from some sort of cognitive problem where you ramble and just type nonsense. I have assumed good faith for a long time but sorry you are just being stupid now, you are not playing fair. As was suggested on the Fringe Noticeboard, there may be a WP:CIR issue here. Have you actually read over what you write and how insane you sound? You need to stop. If this continues I will be reporting your account at the ANI board. Psychologist Guy (talk) 12:14, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

As said, I don't (since many years) add science articles in fields only derived from mathematics/logic/exact/formal science (two possible future exceptions being computational theoretical mathematical physics or Freudian/Jungian/Transpersonal Psychology) so no natural science and especially not biology/medicine (neither standard nor alternative) so no problem here unless/until anyone else adds them or if you'd wanted to find them but my description was too vague/long.

'I have assumed good faith for a long time but sorry you are just being stupid now, you are not playing fair' is completely inchoherent: do you mean 'sorry you' ("you're a sorry person") or 'sorry; you are being...'? Afterwards your comma should either be succeeded by 'and' or replaced with semicolon or full stop (also known as period) (comma splice). You did insult personal attack. Wikipedia isn't a computer game, but sorry if you don't think I 'play fair', and though unsure your meaning, could be very important to me.--dchmelik☀️🕉︎☉🦉🐝🐍☤☆(talk 14:58, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

As several other users have told you, it is against policy to have people reply to you and then go back and edit old comments [8]. Above you have been removing long parts of your comments. Psychologist Guy (talk) 21:02, 17 August 2022 (UTC)