Talk:List of New Zealand international netball players

New format

@Djln: I'm confused! This page was previously a complete list of all those players who have appeared for New Zealand in international netball matches, exactly as the name of the page implies. However, it is no longer a List of New Zealand international netball players, but has morphed into a series of smaller lists that meet various arbitrary criteria. The tables now include some but not all of those people who have played for the New Zealand netball team, and there is a table listing team coaches that does not belong here. Djln, you have clearly spent a lot of time, which I appreciate, creating the plethora of tables, but I can't help thinking that many / most / all of these new tables would be more appropriately included on the page New Zealand national netball team, leaving this page to be what it says it is. I'd be interested to hear your reasoning for making the changes to this page. Paora (talk) 01:41, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

@Paora: For a player to appear on a list like this they really need to meet the notability standards. Playing for New Zealand at netball once or twice is not especially notable. It does not have to be complete a list of every single player that played for New Zealand. That said I suspect about 90% of the the players on your original list are still included. The new format explains why these players are notable e.g. most appearances, gold medalists, captains etc. This page is basically about the players as opposed to the team itself, so I believe the lists are best placed here and not on the page New Zealand national netball team.

Please the note the section on coaches only includes those coaches that were former players. It does not include the three coaches that never played for the national team. I believe that was made clear on that list. Djln Djln (talk) 19:34, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

@Paora: If there is any players not on the list that you believe are really notable and should be included please let me know. Djln Djln (talk) 19:41, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

@Djln: No, every person on the list does not need to be individually notable - see WP:NLIST. It's either a list of New Zealand international netball players or it's not, and currently it's not. Paora (talk) 21:47, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

@Paora: It is clearly is a "list of New Zealand international netball players", just not a "list of (every single) New Zealand international netball player" regardless of notability. WP:NLIST states editors can "choose to limit large lists by only including entries for independently notable". What I have done is greatly improve an article that was very basic. It had no explanation as to why the people listed were notable and it featured a single reference. Readers and other editors expect a lot more. I suggest we invite a third opinion and see what other editors think. Djln Djln (talk) 22:53, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

@Djln: What I think readers and editors expect is that we get the basics right, and by including only some players based on a series of arbitrary criteria I contend that we fail to do that. Why, for example, does a player become notable and therefore eligible for inclusion on this page, according to your reasoning, because their mother also played for the New Zealand team, or because they happened to play in the first home international rather than the second or third home internationals later that year? Rather, I would contend that all of the 179 women who played in the team are notable and should be included in a single "basic" list of players. Indeed, all but 16 of the 179 players already have Wikipedia pages, and you have arbitarily chosen not to include a number of those 163 players for whom there are already stand-alone pages on this page. To my mind. the suggestion in WP:NLIST that editors can "choose to limit large lists by only including entries for independently notable" figures is more appropriate for open-ended lists such as List of New Zealand women artists, rather than tightly defined, finite lists such as this. We see this by comparing with other lists of international sporting representatives, such as List of New Zealand women ODI cricketers, List of England national rugby union players or List of Australia national rugby league team players, which all include every person who has represented their national team in the respective sport. I think that readers and editors would also expect that we include content in the most appropriate place, and I reiterate that the most appropriate place for many of the new tables that you have created, and which I thank you for creating, is not on this page, but on New Zealand national netball team. It may also be appropriate to create List of international netball families, along the lines of List of international rugby union families or List of International cricket families. I will continue to resist strongly the removal and loss of visibility of notable women from this page, but of course as always I welcome the engagement of other editors in this discussion. Paora (talk) 09:21, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I share the concerns raised by Paora. Schwede66 01:10, 10 May 2022 (UTC)