Talk:List of Roman mythological figures

Merge

I didn't know this article existed and I've already created my own list at List of Roman gods. Perhaps the two pages can be merged? T@nn 00:52, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

"flamen majore"

"J" did not exist in Latin, at least not at the same time as the western Roman Empire. Who stupidly wrote "Flamen majore"? Capital letters did not exist at the beginning of sentences and neither did "J". "Majore" has been spelt incorrectly anyway; there shouldn't be an "e" at the end. If nobody can justify the spelling of these words within 24 hours, then I will remove all occurences of "majore" and "minore".Huey45 12:05, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorting it out

Cynwolfe has taken the intitiative in reorganising what was a sprawl of deities. Based on what she's done so far (kudos!), and my own rather limited knowledge, a couple of suggestions.

Almost all entries seem to have their own article, but individual articles on some of the minor deities seem hardly worth having. Some of the more obvious examples:

• Ceres' 12 assistants, listed by Servius: "Vervactor who turns fallow land, Reparator who prepares fallow land, Imporcitor who plows with wide furrows, Insitor who sows, Obarator who ploughs, Occator who harrows, Sarritor who weeds, Subruncinator who thins out, Messor who harvests, Conuector who carts, Conditor who stores, and Promitor who distributes the grain." (Listed in Spaeth, The Roman goddess Ceres, 1996, p.36, and currently footnoted in Ceres (mythology)). Three red-links here, but the Ceres footnote seems to cover them all; they have no function or prominence otherwise. If necessary, the footnote can be moved into the main body of text. They can stay as list here, linked to Ceres, but I think their one-line articles ought to be "merged" (OK, I really mean "deleted"). (addit comment: I see some already direct to Ceres. It's just I'm always wary of deleting articles without consensus)

Have pipelinked the above from List to Ceres as target, and am putting up their one-line articles for deletion. Haploidavey (talk) 15:01, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

• Domiducus and Domitius. Wouldn't both be better placed (and explained) at Marriage in ancient Rome? Haploidavey (talk) 13:41, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Why delete the articles? Many of the "little gods" of Augustine's turba deorum are probably no more than invocational epithets (thus they'd never have more than a sentence or so of description and are best treated under a more important deity with whom they act in concert), but on the odd chance that a user of the encyclopedia types in such a name (perhaps having seen it in a Neo-something handbook), shouldn't the page be a redirect to whatever article (and section) you're moving them to? Cynwolfe (talk) 17:12, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes. I was quite wrong to think otherwise. Haploidavey (talk) 17:42, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

I've been thinking about this further, since last night I added a vanishingly obscure god from Ovid — maybe he's an otherwise unknown cult title for a better known divinity, or maybe Ovid made him up (Alernus), even; who knows. He need not have an independent article. So how 'bout we redirect these little agricultural god articles here? We can say "see also [[Ceres (mythology)|Ceres]]" for each (might need to put a section header in so we can redirect more precisely), but if there's more to said about any individual that would be digressive there (or maybe some are discussed in the scholarship more than others), that info could go in the list here — etymologies, say, or comparisons to other IE gods. Or the entertaining fancies of Dumézil. I'm thinking of Forculus. I've been going over the list trying to improve the references for the minor gods (I'm skipping childbirth and childrearing deities for now, because I want to look at all those together), and I'm working on the complicated matter of Cardea/Carna. Cardea is named by the Church Fathers in connection with Forculus and Limentinus, but while Ovid gives material for her in the Fasti, the other two are passing mentions that scarcely merit an article. Trouble is, there's no way I know of to link to the entry, unless we reformat the whole thing to be like the Glossary of ancient Roman religion — but since nearly all entries will be a single sentence, that isn't really a solution. So I guess for Forculus, say, just redirect to [[List of Roman deities#F]]? The entry would then be like the Alernus entry. Cynwolfe (talk) 20:02, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Oh, wait; I see you've already linked the ag deities to the section in the Ceres article. Anyway, you probably see what I'm suggesting about the rest of it. Cynwolfe (talk) 20:21, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

(unindented) Your reformatting and organisation's very useful; like the Glossary of ancient Roman religion, it's robust and flexible. Just picking at what interests me at the moment, I see we've another pesky little cluster of agri-godlets, currently linked as follows (with my own comments inserted below. Input would be welcome; I too often louse these things up when being bold):

• Runcina, minor goddess of agriculture, associated with reaping and weeding.

Found only in St Augustine, as far as I can tell, and unlikely to need a separate article. St A. rather vaguely links her to Tellus. [1]. And Turcan's paragraph on indigitamenta gives "Runcina for killing the weeds".

• Rusina, protector of the fields or farmland (also known as Rurina).

Comment. Can't find Rurina in Augustine's text (Dyson's translation) but p.1223 (partial preview) has an editor's note on Rusina as "Roman goddess of the countryside, elsewhere called Rurinae and Rucinia (cf. Tertullian Ad nat., 2, 11.". Then something from Sabellius - the snippet's incomplete.

• Rusina/Rusor, a minor agricultural god and attendant of Ceres.

Comment. Not sure what's going on here; see above, where Augustine, presents her/him as agri-deity of harvest but doesn't offer connection to Ceres, whom he sees as pretty much equivalent to Venus, Vesta and "Liber and Libera". Humph.

OK, I see Cyn has now removed the Rusina/Rusor faux-doublet.

Rusor in Augustine, fwiw. Haploidavey (talk) 16:30, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

This is slow work, because each little god takes a day or two of work to check thoroughly. Since we're not deleting their articles, but only redirecting them, if someone comes up with sources that present lengthier discussion independent of others in their group, then an independent article can easily be restored. I'm stuck on Cardea at the moment, sorting out what Ovid was up to with his conflations. In future, as I said above, I want to round up all the little birth and child development deities into one article, because they're better understood as a group, and are almost always discussed that way. It's possible that after I read enough of the scholarship I'll find that they should be discussed under a subhead within Lucina (goddess). For the agricultural group, I'll take up my suggestion at Ceres (mythology). Cynwolfe (talk) 16:48, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Ah, my brain's rather scrambled these days, so thanks for the loan of clear thought. These groupings are tricky, aren't they? I played with the notion of adding to Ceres (mythology) but that seems to presume her divine authority over all these agri-godlings and godlettes. I'm not sure of our theological grounds. A case could be made for grouping agri-deities under the aegis of a single article - perhaps a section for the same at Ancient Roman agriculture. Or a more general article (with format much as this one) on Roman agricultural Deities. It's a whole midden of agri-gods. I guess we can let them steam quietly for a bit, and see what they grow. 17:31, 2 April 2011 (UTC)Haploidavey (talk)

Antevorta

I amy be wrong but I think the correspondence is Antevorta Prorsa (and Postvorta Porrima).Aldrasto11 (talk) 05:47, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

At one time I was going through the list, weeding out dubious entries, adding others. Some of these deities are known only scantily, and could never really have an article longer than a stub; those I think could safely be listed here with a little paragraph, or in an article on some "category" of deity ("Minor agricultural deities of ancient Rome" or some such). Originally the list seems to have reflected certain Neopagan enthusiasms. I got stuck on a particular deity in the C's, got distracted, and haven't returned to the "weeding out". Hope to someday (I especially have wanted to look at birth and childhood deities). But I encourage you to fix whatever you see wrong in the list. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:58, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Move

I strenuously object to the undiscussed move. This is NOT a list of mythological figures. It lists only deities, not other kinds of mythological figures. Cynwolfe (talk) 11:23, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I've asked for admin help to undo the move, and avoid the misleading redirects. Haploidavey (talk) 21:07, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

I put the case (as I see it) at the Admin's noticeboard. Seems we can either go the WP:RfC route, or create a stub from the unwanted redirects. Here's a link [2] to the discussion. Haploidavey (talk) 22:46, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Hilaritas

This has been tagged for citation for a year or so, and I've boldly removed it because it/she seems dubious as a deity, just sometimes found on coinage as apparent exhortation to celebrate the goodies of Imperial rule: see Wilhelm Froehner, Hilaritas et Laetitia, 1907 - yes, it's old stuff - Rollin & Feuardent; [3]. See also Carlos F. Noreña, Imperial Ideals in the Roman West: Representation, Circulation, Power, CUP, 2011 [4]. My question being - do we (or should we) include all such possible personifications as divine? Neither of these linked sources seems to describe Hilaritas as a deity - had she been one, surely Augustine and his ilk wouldn't have missed the opportunity to take a poke. Haploidavey (talk) 14:39, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

This question has occurred to me more than once as well. The solution I've been mulling over is a "cult of virtues" article, based mainly on the Noreña book, Clark's Divine Qualities, and the Rufus Fears article on the cult of the virutes in ANRW. By article, I really just mean a list article, I think, with a nice introduction. That article could be cross-referenced like the indigitmenta and other lists of deities mainly belonging to Aug's "throng of little gods". One sticking point is that some figures would belong in both: Salus and Bonus Eventus come to mind. (BTW, this talk page title is screwed up from that precipitous move, d'ya notice?) Cynwolfe (talk) 16:05, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Oh sheeeee..it. I hadn't noticed the move - I distinctly remember this being a List of Deities when I wrote the above. Either I'm losing it, or have lost it, or I simply read what I expected to find. All could be equally true. "Precipitous Moves" would be a great name for a haulage company, don'cha think? Anywas, I reckon a list-article on the Virtues would be helpful - and something I'm personally interested in. Haploidavey (talk) 19:19, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Just saw your objection in the previous section; sorry, but had I noticed, I too would have objected. Not the first time such moves have been made. Remember?. I'm moving it back. Haploidavey (talk) 19:58, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

[edit conflict] Yeah, you may've missed that brief episode. Someone moved the article to "List of Roman mythological figures", even though the introduction states quite clearly that this is a list of deities, and even though no other kinds of "mythological figures" are listed here as they are at List of Greek mythological figures (the latter being one of the 10 most-visited G&R articles, incidentally). The helpful admin who moved it back must've forgotten to move the talk page. Because a redirect exists at Talk:List of Roman deities as a result of the move, it requires more mojo than you or I possess. But what of my question about Salus and Bonus Eventus, kind sir?Cynwolfe (talk) 20:01, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

[and another edit conflict] Yes, I just saw how the page-move would work. We can't reasonably have a redirect from a mythology list to one on deities; such a thing should not be; but alas, you're too right about the mojo. Salus, Bonus Eventus and their like would, I daresy, happily span more than one category, and more than one list. D'you not think? Haploidavey (talk) 20:11, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Discuss: Delete "Main deities"

This short list seems arbitrary and has no citation for its inclusion, versus, say, the list of Varro's 20 major gods. I'd be in favor of deleting it. - Eponymous-Archon (talk) 21:20, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. It seems to have been compiled some time late last year, and (as you say) seems arbitrary. I'm removing it. Haploidavey (talk) 09:06, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Just FYI, the now-deleted section was created in this edit. On an unrelated matter; this talk page is still mistitled (thanks to a bad move - on which, see above - and a subsequent series of redirect fixes). Haploidavey (talk) 09:33, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Imported deities\ heroes by cultures?

The list mostly consists of Italic deities, with some exceptions. The article Religion in ancient Rome states that the Romans included (and sometimes worshiped) the deities of those they conquered in order to assure peace between the Roman state and the new subjects. Why are these subject deities not included?--92.114.148.141 (talk) 14:17, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

I don't understand it either. It seems really arbitrary. Cybele, and Bacchus are included but Isis, Serapis, and Mithras are not. The latter three are even included as examples in the paragraphs at the top of the article. Cybele and Bacchus are not usually included as "proper" Roman deities (they are both foreign mystery cults) so I don't understand the extra emphasis on them here. If you include them you should include all such followings within Rome. --Bfarb (talk) 20:32, 1 November 2018 (UTC)