Talk:List of Saint Seiya: The Lost Canvas characters/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Tense change required

Although in practice, tense in fiction can be either present or past, according to WikiPedia writing style and guideline, fiction is written in present tense. There are many parts that require cleaning up in this article. Changing the entire article to conform WikiPedia's format is going to be a lot of work, but I hope we could fix it little by little when we spot any.

For reference, please enter keyword wp:tense in your search. Anthonydraco (talk) 01:17, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Sion

If Sion is the official spelling, please fix just the romanization then. It spelled Sion in romanji, but the way the Japanese pronounce it is still Shion anyway. Sion is more like a character/alphabetical equivalant to the Katagana. I accept the fact that it's officially spelled Sion. But we cannot rule out the possibility that it's not a Japanese name yet. If anyone has a specific source saying that Sion's name is not Japanese, please tag it.

Many original Japanese names are written in Katagana, like Tenma, but that doesn't mean it has western origin. Many names in Saint Seiya are like that. Just like Tenma or Yato, even in Katagana, they have proper meaning in Japanese and does mean in Japanese. Shion has its very proper meaning in Japanese, and used as a quite common name. Just look here and you'll find so many. Katagana doesn't always mean foreign name, sometimes it's because the Kanji are too difficult to read, write, or print. Kurumada also tends to stick to Japanese too, even when name a westerner, like Shura, for instance.

And we have

Tokusa = scouring rush (Plant) Yuzuriha = larva-food (Plant, and they farm them along with silk.) Hakurei = turnip (Plant) Albafica = fig (Plant)

Four names as plants. That's not a coincidence. It's not surprising if Shion's name is one. The Japanese don't find naming their people after a plant a strange thing. If his name is Japanese, it'd mean Tartarian Aster. And Aster means star, in Greek. It perfectly fits, as his signature move, Stardust Revolution, is about star.

The people of Jamir are mostly named in Japanese also. And three of them are plants already. Shion was from Jamir. It doesn't make sense if the people over there would just suddenly break the trend and use a bibilical name. Bibilical names also mean that the person who name it to someone else knows the bible and have faith in it to an extent. No one would name their son after a bibilical character if they don't know bible. People of Jamir are like that?

Yeah, but Teshigori isn't Kurumada. Mu and Kiki aren't names of plants. It's likely Teshigori used names of plants because Shion is the name of that plant, but It's unlikely it was the original idea of Kurumada. Also, they can SOUND like Japanese names, but they're not. Because Sion&Co are from Jamir, not from Japan, or their names would have kanji in them. Also, Official Spelling is Official. Or we have to use TongHu instead of Dohko, as Dohko is Chinese and it wouldn't make sense for him having the name spelled that way. Also, Rozan->Lushan.Sirtao (talk) 20:11, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not the one that first use Rozan. I simply follow the existing article on Dohko, very much like how you believe the article about Sion. And I thought I've told you in your talk page that this is not about spelling.

For those four names, even if they're not from Japan, four names that can mean plant is a quite big conincidence. Obviously, it's intentional. And if Teshigori name them to conform plant theme, then doesn't this say something about how she thinks what Shion mean? You seem to be certain that you know more. Ever consider putting both meaning in there? Anthonydraco (talk) 23:11, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, Sion doesn't even look like a westerner, especially with those two dots. In 1800's, bibilical names were common only in Christian's world. The character looks obviously Asian. A bibilical name would fit for Aaron, who is from the Christian world.

Again: I'd like to see the official source saying that it's not a Japanese name, if possible.Anthonydraco (talk) 11:57, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Again: I'd like to see the official source saying that it IS a Japanese name with THAT meaning, if possible, as Shion in Japanese means also "Kindness of a teacher". As I said, is an official source call him Sion and there are not other official source changing it, we call him Sion. It's a matter of coerence more than of meaningSirtao (talk) 20:11, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

What I said on your talk page is: I don't deny the official spelling, however, whether it is actually a bibilical/western name or an Asian name is another matter. which means that I've already accept that it's spelled Sion. But meaning and spelling are not the same thing. You have proven that it should be spelled that way, not mean that way. You keep insisting why it should be spelled so. Yeah, I saw that, and I spell Sion now too, but that's not the point. Because it's spelled Sion, it's read Shion anyway. The meaning is still questionable. And if you're insisting that it's bibilical, put the right information in there. Sion is a city, not a character. Zion is sometimes called Sion, it's explained in the article. The link to the article is below this section. Anthonydraco (talk) 23:11, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not saying it's biblical. I'm saying we DO NOT KNOW its meaning. They are SPECULATIONS. All I know, it's that when a _JAPANESE_ name is in Katakana it has no meaning. And if they are NOT Japanese names(since they are NOT Japanese people), then they may have a different meaning(and spelling). Still, we do NOT know their meaning, as we don't know the language they are from(and aid language is not stated). In fact, I'm against giving any meaning to katakana-only names other than their most likely translitteration. Also, we should add somewhere the translitterations used for the new characters, while more-or-less probable, are fan-based and NOT officials. Teshigori could decide to have Rasgado's name spelt as Hasgard, should she wish.Sirtao (talk) 20:25, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Fine then. We probably should add a note. As none can confirm what they mean. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anthonydraco (talk • contribs) 22:21, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I think you should directly talk with User talk:Sirtao. Tintor2 (talk) 12:10, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I like some additional opinion from others too. Anthonydraco (talk) 20:44, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

No idea, I dont know japanese.Tintor2 (talk) 20:52, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Additional information: Sion is not a bibilical character. It's a bibilical city, like Babel. Usually referred to as Zion. It usually means Israel.

Main article: Zion

Anthonydraco (talk) 20:11, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but what's the official source for the "Sion" spelling? While I seem to remember seeing that spelling on official material before ('don't remember where right now though), I've also seen "Shion." Like here or here (this one is Shūeisha's official page for the Kanzenban edition of the manga, but it's in flash... select "tōjō jinbutsu shōkai" and then "so no ta"), for example.

Myself, I'd think it is indeed "Shion," as in the Japanese word (logic be damned... that's not exactly the first time Kurumada gave a Japanese name to a non-Japanese character). Erigu (talk) 01:40, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

It was written as Sion in the characters's encyclopedia in an older edition of the manga. In the Taizen, too. Also, it's the name used in its Myth Cloth. Probably it depends on the day of the week, the weather, the price of the apples...Sirtao (talk) 23:41, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Probably it depends on the day of the week, the weather, the price of the apples...

Ah, trying to make sense of the official alphabet spellings! Ain't that fun? ^__^;

But, er... Which "older edition"? The names of the characters of the first (Sanctuary) chapter were spelled in alphabet in volume 13, but the other character encyclopedia (volume 28) didn't list any alphabet spelling. And I'm pretty sure it's not in the Taizen either. So there would just be the figure. 'Not sure that should trump Shūeisha's official site for the Kanzenban or Tōei's official site for the Hades OVAs... ^^; Erigu (talk) 05:04, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Fan meaning of names

If they are that. They should be deleted because they violate Wikipedia:No original research. I know maybe some of you want to stay with that of the meaning but these are the rules. I ll wait to delete them.Tintor2 (talk) 22:55, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. While some of them are VERY likely, they are not confirmed\official. Let's keep only the meaning of Kanji names, I say!Sirtao (talk) 21:54, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't trouble me one way or the other. Anthonydraco (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 00:18, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Cleaning up

Some cleaning up has been done. I assume that many contributors with deleted contribution might feel offended. But please bear in mind that WikiPedia's article on Lost Canvas is not read only by Saint Seiya's Fan. WikiPedia's policy is also against excessive information.

The deletion concerns the characters that are just there to die. Keeping those details wouldn't mean much to anyone else besides Saint Seiya hardcore fans, or at times, the contributors alone. I'd like to refer the contributors to Wikipedia:Fancruft before adding some very specific details, and consider a little if the informations fall into this category or not. If they do, I'd advise against adding them in. Please bear in mind that this is not an attempt to accuse any contributors or their contributions, however, under some considerable objectivity, some details definitely fall into this category.

Anthonydraco (talk) 18:43, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Defteros is not CONFIRMED as Gemini

Asmita said Defteros was a man with the power to destroy the stars of a galaxy: while Saga\Kanon were such men, so was Phoenix Ikki, by the time he fought Garuda Aiakos. Now, I agree he's probably Gemini, but it was not explicitly said, therefore it's speculation.Sirtao (talk) 02:31, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Plus, there's the fact all the Gold Saints were shown in the beginning of the manga, which doesn't quite fit with Deuteros living on that island, what Asmita says about him, or Degel apparently not knowing who the "demon" is.

I'm thinking Deuteros ("second" in Greek, right?) is actually the Gemini Gold Saint's brother (and, of course, he lives on the island of Kanon...). 'Guess that would still make him "Gemini Deuteros" (just like Kanon was already referred to as "Gemini Kanon" before becoming a Gold Saint, unless I'm mistaken), but again, that's just speculation for the time being... Erigu (talk) 01:55, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Gliding or Greeding?

Shouldn't Gliding be グライディング|Guraidingu and not グリーディング|Gurīdingu ? Sirtao (talk) 02:34, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it should. Erigu (talk) 01:49, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Rasgado\Hasgard

Even the Japanese Wiki article gives Rasgado as translation. If anybody has a different official spelling, please cite the source.Sirtao (talk) 19:53, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

While I wouldn't consider another wiki to be a reliable source, "Rasgado" does seem a lot more likely than "Hasgard" to me as well. Erigu (talk) 01:50, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Considering the way Japanese translate foreign, specially English, names to katakana, there's a lot more chances to be Hasgard than Rasgado. If Rasgado is a Portuguese word or a latin related name, there's no sense in doubling the sound "aa" in katakana, since it should be written like "Rasugado" or "Hasugado". However, the Taurus Gold Saint is officially written as "Hasugaado" and the double "aa" is commonly used to make sound of the "ar" in English as in Hasg"ar"d. 83.132.214.204 (talk) 23:28, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Thing is, the name "Rasgado" does become "hasugādo" in Japanese[1] (keep in mind that different languages = different phonetics), and I can't seem to find another possible origin for the name "hasugādo". Apparently, neither could the Japanese readers, hence the spelling mentioned on the Japanese Wikipedia. Erigu (talk) 11:47, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Japanese people are strange and they always will be :P Yes, it does depend on the phonetics of the specific language that Shiori took "Rasgado" from, BUT if she took that name from Portuguese or latin-related language (which would make sense since "rasgado" in Portuguese or Spanish totally fits the character in question), I just don't get the Katakana form of that word. Rasgado it is then ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 15:13, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

if she took that name from Portuguese or latin-related language (which would make sense since "rasgado" in Portuguese or Spanish totally fits the character in question)

Also, Aldebaran (the "first" one, I mean) was Brazilian, I believe... And what's the official language of Brazil?

It all really seems quite likely...

I just don't get the Katakana form of that word.

Well, the long "ga" isn't that surprising... Sometimes, a long "ga" is just a long "ga". ^^

As for the "ha" for the Portuguese "ra"... It might have something to do with this... Apparently (I personally don't know a single thing about Portuguese...), the "R" sometimes is a voiceless fricative, in which case "ha" would be fitting. Erigu (talk) 15:55, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Portuguese is my mother tongue and our "ra" has two phonetics - when it starts a word as "Rasgardo", the "ra" read the same as French, a sound which Japanese do not have in their katakana, it's actually a very strong sound, but if the Japanese translate it that way, there's nothing else I can say about this issue :) Aldeberan is just the name of the main star in Taurus constelation and Brazilian speak Portuguese but a bit different form Portuguese (Portugal). ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 16:29, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Portuguese is my mother tongue and out "ra" has two phonetics - when it starts a word as "Rasgardo", the "ra" read the same as French, a sound which Japanese do not have in their katakana, it's actually a very strong sound not voiceless at all

'Should be "ra" in kana, then, logically, yeah... ^^;

But is that in... er... "Portuguese" Portuguese or in "Brazilian" Portuguese? According to that article, the "r" becoming a voiceless fricative would be a Brazilian thing?

(and I see you typed "Rasgardo"... is that a typo, or is there something that escapes me?)

if the Japanese translate it that way, there's nothing else I can say about this issue :)

Well, I just don't see what else it could be... The "Aldebaran (as in, the character from the original series) was Brazilian" lead seems relevant to me (considering it also works for Dégel, El Cid and Manigoldo, off the top of my head), and it seems possible Teshirogi got the "hasugādo" kana spelling (as strange as it may be) from a website like the one I mentioned above...

Anybody else? Erigu (talk) 16:37, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, it was a typo :P We say "Rasgado". In "Portuguese Portuguese", for example, if "ra" was in the middle of the word such as "sarada" ("healed" in English), that "ra" would sound EXACTLY like "ra" in Japanese --> ラ, but in the beginning it's a totally different spelling, hence why the translation confused me. "Ra" in Portuguese (in Portugal) sounds like this http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ce/Alveolar_trill.ogg, but in Brazil it does become a voiceless fricative depending on the region and accent, so it may be possible that Japanese would translate that sound to "ha". ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 18:07, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Another matter that can help maybe to defend Hasgard, is the existence of the name Hasgaard. Its a scandinavian surname, and the katakana Hasugādo is close enough. The only problem is that Taurus is supposedly Brazilian in LC too, right? Onikiri (talk) 04:20, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the Lost Canvas Taurus Saint was actually said to be Brazilian (but maybe I missed something?)... It's just that Camus was French and the word "dégel" is French, Deathmask was Italian and the word "manigoldo" is Italian, Shura was Spanish and the name "El Cid" comes from Spain, so it seems likely (to me, anyway) that the real name of Teshirogi's Taurus Saint would be Brazilian. And considering a Google search on "hasugādo" in kana only got me the Brazilian word "Rasgado" (back when the character appeared, anyway... now, a lot of hits are Saint Seiya-related, obviously), it simply seems to add up nicely.

On the other hand, there are no hits for the strings "ハスガード" "Hasgard" or "ハスガード" "Hasgaard" (apart from recent Saint Seiya-related stuff that stems from this very Wikipedia article...). Also, I personally doubt the Scandinavian "gard" or "gaard" would be rendered as "ガード" / "gādo" in kana. I already mentioned "Asgard", but "Stellan Skarsgård" (Swedish) becomes "ステラン・スカルスガルド" / "Suteran Sukarusugarudo" or "ステッラン・スカーシュゴード" / "Suterran Sukāshugōdo"[2], and "Søren Kierkegaard" (Danish) becomes "セーレン・キェルケゴール" / "Sēren Kyerukegōru", "セーレン・キルケゴール" / "Sēren Kirukegōru" or "セアン・キアケゴー" / "Sean Kiakegō"[3]... So claiming without any evidence that "ハスガード" / "hasugādo" is "close enough" simply doesn't cut it, in my opinion. Especially in the light of the "Rasgado" thing mentioned above. Erigu (talk) 13:26, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Not a plot summary

Just a general observation: this should be a list of characters, not a plot summary in disguise. I think there would be a lot of fat to trim, here... Erigu (talk) 12:34, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Edit war

The page is protected for a little while, and in the meantime, I'd like Onikiri to justify his edits here...

(other editors are free to jump in, naturally)

My POV:

1) There are sections for the "Shion"/"Sion" and "Rasgado"/"Hasgard" disputes right above.

2) "Hades Specters" as opposed to what specters? In a section regarding the army of Hades, that's just redundant (on top of being plain odd: we don't call the Gold Saints "Athena Gold Saints", do we?).

3) For "gurīdingu", I personally can't think of anything besides "greeting" (like I said, "greeting" is often (mis?)spelled as "gurīdingu"... see Google Japan) and "greeding" (but that doesn't make much sense to me).

4) It has been decided over at the manual of style for Japan-related articles to romanize non-Japanese words on a kana-per-kana basis, meaning "ベヌウ" would be "Benuu", whereas "ベヌー" would be "Benū".

5) It seems odd to me to use an adjective like "hideous" in "Celestial Hideous Star" instead of a noun. Then again, the same could be said of other Specter names, and there's a lack of consistency all around. Is there no translation of those terms in an official English version of Water Margin?

6) "Chijyūsei" / "Tenjyūsei" isn't revised Hepburn (which is the romanization system we're supposed to be using on the English Wikipedia). It should be "Chijūsei" / "Tenjūsei". Same thing for "Winbā" and "Kwīn". See here.

7) The note regarding the meaning of "tenma" is... well, dumb. It simply follows the same structure as the other specter names: "ten/chi + [kanji] + sei".

8) Mentioning that color illustration (why call it a "promotional illustration" when it's just color pages from the manga?) with the "classical" Bronze Saints seems wholly unnecessary to me. They never appeared in the narrative and thus aren't characters of this particular series.

9) Could you link to the Kurumada interview where he explains where Kanon's name came from? As far as I (and the Japanese sites I've checked) remember, Kurumada said he took it from an island in the Mediterranean Sea. Now, I have no idea what island the guy was talking about, but your Canon Island definitely isn't in there. "Kanon" would be a more neutral spelling (also, I kinda wonder if Teshirogi isn't connecting the island Kanon to the character Kanon, what with Defteros living there...).

10) I think the Japanese spelling of Defteros' nickname is worth mentioning. Besides, "demon" isn't quite an one-to-one translation of the Japanese "oni".

11) It's "ピラニアン" (piranian), not "ピラニア" (pirania). Yeah, it sucks that Kurumada doesn't stick with actual words, but what can you do? Like I said, I wouldn't be surprised if that came from Kurumada's interest in wrestling...

12) I don't believe it was ever said that Atla was Hakurei's son. Source?

13) It seems you gave up on that one, but yes, it is a long vowel in "氷", and it's "kōri" in revised Hepburn. Just like "大阪" is "Ōsaka", not "Oosaka" nor "O'osaka" (where did that come from?). And please spare me nonsense like "do you know the splitting of the kanji and verb particle?", really... Erigu (talk) 12:36, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I have on question too, i know the katakana spells like Violate, but Aiacos calls her "his beautiful violet flower" in the manga. Isn't that an indication that her name comes from the flower? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.246.52.130 (talk) 16:27, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

It certainly could be, but I'd like to see the original line (in Japanese) to make sure. Do you remember when that was exactly? Erigu (talk) 16:39, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Page 8 in chapter 117, Aiacos calls her Chibana. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.102.14.164 (talk) 22:53, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I believe the proper romanization for this character is Violette. As in the manga she is called "Chibana", and that is a colloquial name for violet flowers in Japan, which are known also as sumire. Also, the katakana seems to spell Violette rather than Violate. She is called Chibana in LC 117, literally petals of blood. There is a violet variety that is precisely called that in Japan, and also, its color is purpleish red.

Hasgard, katakana is clear enough. Hasgard is a scandinavian name. I doubt its Rasgado. That mistransliteration was made common by fans. If not, then star calling El Cid Erushido, Sisyphus, Shijifuosu, Dégel, Dejeru, and the like, just because we feel like it. My mother language is spanish, so i can assure you, that rasgado doesnt fit that katakana.

By the way, there are some editings that are being attributed to me, and it wasnt me. Such as Tenma's meaning, Hakurei's son, (i didnt even know he was his son), Hades Specters/Specters (same thing) and Piranian. I didnt made those edits, in fact i corrected the redaction of the entire article a few days ago, which had a lot of sentences like it was written by a five year old, and corrected that Piranian thing back then. But someone added Piranian again, God knows why. So dont blame those on me as it wasnt me. Greeting, wasnt me either...In fact i do think Greeting is more likely than Gliding, but someone keeps changing that.

If you want to change to Benuu or Chijusei, fine with me. They kept changing due to the reverts, but its nothing i wouldnt leave as you say. Revised forms are okay with me.

About Hideous, not all Specters, even in the article have their stars named as nouns...Pharaoh's says "Bestial", Gregor's says "Fleeing", Edward's says "Flying". They not necessarily have to be nouns in my opinion, as long as the exact meaning is kept, as in translations of Water Margin.

I fixed the article's redaction and read here that it needs to be trimmed, as it is becoming more like a plot summary. I am willing to do it, if any case you guys need it. Just let me know. (unsigned comment added by Onikiri)

Onikiri, just a question about the attack of Violette, isn't it Kagemei, the Seal of Shadows?....and what is this Brutal something...can't find anywhere these name in the manga, can you tell me the page that this appears? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.102.14.164 (talk) 01:41, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

If we're talking about the technique she uses to immobilize her opponent, she does call it "影ぬい" / "kagenui", as Onikiri said. It's a term that's often used for the good old ninja trick of lore. But I think "shadow sewing" would be a better (and more common) translation than "shadow knitting", which... well, it really is a knitting technique, apparently. ^^;

I'm not sure where the "ブルータルリアル" / "Brutal Real" thing comes from though... Erigu (talk) 04:08, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

First off, thank you for replying.

(but please don't forget to sign your comments by typing four tildes)

1) Concerning "Violate"/"Violette"...

I looked around but didn't find anything about "chibana" (spelled as "血華" in episode 117 of the series) being a colloquial name for violet flowers in Japan. Could you help me out?

More importantly, Aiakos (as "Aiakos" is the only official spelling I know of, as seen here... but that's another matter) doesn't quite call the character "chibana". Here are the pages[4][5], and here's the original text:

さあ　次は何を見せてくれる？　青鋼の破片が舞う様か　大輪の血華か！！

... which would translate into something like:

And now, what are you going to entertain me with? (lit. "what are you going to show me for my pleasure?") Whirling shards of Bronze... or a large flower of blood?! (possibly plural? "or large flowers of blood?!")

Now, it's a matter of interpretation... When Aiakos is talking about "large flower(s) of blood", he's obviously talking about a bloody carnage... But is he saying that he's eager to see how exactly his lieutenant is going to massacre the Bronze Saints (by shattering them or by slashing them), or wondering if she's going to shed a lot of blood (and possibly die?) in the battle?

Anyway, I'm not convinced this indicates the character should be called "Violette" at all.

the katakana seems to spell Violette rather than Violate.

I'd really like to know what you're basing that observation on... Google Japan appears to disagree[6][7].

2) Concerning "Rasgado"/Hasgard"...

Hasgard, katakana is clear enough.

No, they're not. "Hasugādo" could stand for many things. And as we've seen, it even stands for "Rasgado" in certain cases[8].

Here's an example of a Brazilian name that begins with a "r" that becomes a voiceless fricative: "Royce Gracie". Note the kana spelling of that name: "ホイス・グレイシー" / "Hoisu Gureishī". "Hoisu", not "Roisu".

Hasgard is a scandinavian name.

When "Asgard" was transliterated into Japanese/kana for the second Saint Seiya movie, it became "asugarudo", not "asugādo". I believe "Hasgard" would follow the same logic.

"Ar" being rendered with a long "a" sound in Japanese/kana is something you often see for English words/names, but that doesn't necessarily apply for words/names of other origins.

That mistransliteration was made common by fans. If not, then star calling El Cid Erushido, Sisyphus, Shijifuosu, Dégel, Dejeru, and the like, just because we feel like it.

Let's not be too quick calling "mistransliterations", here... We don't have official Latin alphabet spellings for Teshirogi's characters. "Best guesses" (like "El Cid", "Sisyphus", "Dégel", and the like) are all we have. And "Rasgado" is my best guess, for reasons listed earlier. It also appears to be the Japanese readers' (well, from what I've seen, naturally).

3) Concerning the edits about "tenma"'s meaning, Atla being Hakurei's son, "Hades Specters"/"Specters" and "Piranha"/"Piranhan"...

there are some editings that are being attributed to me, and it wasnt me. Such as Tenma's meaning, Hakurei's son, (i didnt even know he was his son), Hades Specters/Specters (same thing)

You did add that note regarding "tenma"'s meaning.[9][10][11] That note was carried over from the Alraune Queen article (which probably shouldn't exist, but that's another matter), and there again, you were the one who added it.[12]

While I don't think you were the one who said that Atla was Hakurei's son[13], you did revert my edit[14][15] after I asked for a source[16], hence my mentioning this detail here.

Same thing for "Hades Specters"/"Specters", you didn't introduce the redundancy[17], but you did revert[18][19][20][21] my edit[22], so...

someone added Piranian again, God knows why.

Yeah, that would be me. :þ

The reason being that it's "ピラニアン" (piranian) in kana, not "ピラニア" (pirania), as "piranha" should be. It appears to be a made-up adjective. Silly, but hey: it's there. A Google search shows that Kurumada isn't the only one to use it either...

Greeting, wasnt me either...In fact i do think Greeting is more likely than Gliding, but someone keeps changing that.

Er... Yeah.[23]

4) Concerning the name of the Hades' stars and nouns/adjectives...

About Hideous, not all Specters, even in the article have their stars named as nouns...Pharaoh's says "Bestial", Gregor's says "Fleeing", Edward's says "Flying".

Yes, I noted that in my initial comment above. Some consistency would be nice though.

as long as the exact meaning is kept, as in translations of Water Margin.

But are they your own translations, or are you basing your edits on official English translations from Water Margin?

And again, could you link to that Kurumada interview, regarding the name of Defteros' island? Erigu (talk) 03:31, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Ah, I now know which one you meant...I thought you meant Pegasus, but it was the fruity Specter, yeah. That was me, but i misunderstood who you were referring to. Onikiri (talk) 06:47, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

(please reply in this section instead of creating new ones at the top of the page[24])

Well, I did say it simply followed the same structure as the other specter names, i.e. "ten/chi + [kanji] + sei"... ^^;

And like I said, that's why I think it makes no sense to have a note about the meaning of "tenma" as one word.

As for your other new comments...

(please reply below instead of editing your initial comments[25])

I believe the proper romanization for this character is Violette. As in the manga she is called "Chibana", and that is a colloquial name for violet flowers in Japan, which are known also as sumire.

That bit you just added about violet flowers also being known as "sumire" doesn't help... I asked for a source regarding your claim that "血華" / "chibana" was a colloquial name for those flowers. You said there was a violet variety that was "precisely called that" in Japan and that "its color is purpleish red", but I couldn't find it.

(... not that it really matters anyway, as I said in my previous reply...)

My mother language is spanish, so i can assure you, that rasgado doesnt fit that katakana.

Please pay attention to the discussion. We were saying that the Lost Canvas Taurus Saint could be Brazilian like (the original) Aldebaran was, in which case the katakana "hasugādo" would fit. Again, a simple Google search[26] shows that the (Brazilian) Portuguese "Rasgado" is indeed spelled as "hasugādo" in kana, and I already provided the additional example of the name "Royce Gracie" being rendered as "Hoisu Gureishī" in kana.

And now for your other other new comments...

(please reply on the talk page rather than in your edit comments[27])

Werent you guys insisting on revised Hepburn?

I was thinking we should try and sort it all out here before going back to edit the article...

About Brutal Real, japanese wikipedia lists it that way. Google finds it too.

Er... That's nice, but do you have an actual source? From the manga, I mean?

Because, yes, I know it shows up on Google, but this site lists it as a separate attack, not as another name (or a part of the name?) of the "Kagenui" one. According to this blog article, it's an attack name that wasn't in the serialization but was added to volume 14 (which I don't have, so I can't check), but yet again, it doesn't say it's the "Kagenui" technique. And based on this other blog article, I would think it's actually the attack used on the Bronze Saints in episode 117, i.e. not the "Kagenui" technique.

(and I would like some feedback regarding the other points I mentioned) Erigu (talk) 07:05, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

About the Canon Island affair, I read it years ago in a magazine, but i also found that on the web. This site also mentions it, although not in detail: http://philipho.tripod.com/History.html

I will keep trying to find other source, as I dont have the magazine anymore. Brutal Real, as I understand, true, it is listed in one of the volumes of the manga. About the chibana thing, let me find a source for you. Onikiri (talk) 17:53, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Were you referring to this interview (it's not that old: August 2008)?

But I seem to remember something about the (real) island being in the Mediterranean Sea... 'Not sure where I read that... Ah, well. Anyway, I checked, and Canon Island is (unsurprisingly) spelled as "キャノン" / "kyanon"[28], not "カノン" / "kanon"...

As for "Brutal Real", I do believe it's real, yes, it's just that I don't think that's the same attack as Kagenui. You said you got the name from the Japanese Wikipedia, and I think they simply forgot to put a comma between the two attack names... That's why a more reliable source (the actual volume 14, basically) would be nice...

By the way, the site you mentioned is nice, even if they get some stuff wrong... For example, while it's true that Milo, not Camus, was initially supposed to be Hyōga's master, their image from the Kanzenban is of Camus. This one from the original Weekly Jump episode, on the other hand...

But this image from the Kanzenban is interesting, isn't it? So we have an official spelling, and it's not "Lune"[29]. Careful with your claims... For starters, the (supposed) origins of the name "Lune" weren't in the article any longer when you wrote that comment. Then, the explanations you gave earlier[30] were just speculation on your part, right? Speculation generally isn't welcome, here, especially when you make it sound so authoritative. And finally, if you had checked, you would have seen that Tolkien's Lune was spelled as "ルーン" / "rūn" in the Japanese version[31], not as "ルネ" / "rune" (which is indeed the proper kana rendering of the French name "René"[32]). Erigu (talk) 19:16, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Know that picture of Balron Specter, seems like a typo, since René in French is pronounced almost identical to spanish. There is only a slight variation in the last syllable. And in french it doesnt sound like Rune. I know both spanish and french people with that name and they dont pronounce it even closely to Rune.

You can try this audio file: http://inogolo.com/pronunciation/d1096/Ren%E9_Descartes

Same here: http://www.babynamer.com/Rene

Anyway, them crazy japanese i guess. Or just a typo Onikiri (talk) 22:56, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Could you please pay attention? I told you "ルネ" / "rune" was the proper kana rendering of the French name "René", and I included a link, too.

I don't need your audio files: I'm French. Sure, "Rune" doesn't sound exactly like "René" (what a shock!)... but it's the best possible kana rendering. Which is why it's the most widely used, and why it's the one picked by the Japanese Wikipedia.

It's not "a typo" nor "them crazy Japanese". It's just you liking "Lune" better. Erigu (talk) 23:07, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi there

Sorry I don't know how to post correctly in this disscussion. I'm the person who is adding the counts of no-names Bronze and Silver Saints and also I made the additions to Shion, Regulus, Kagaho and the other still living actors. I'm writing death counts list since LC has started and I also had contact to several other people who are also counting and specify the numbers of shown Saints. Too I removed the comment about Worm Raimi, he was never seen resurrected at any time and given this death place (in Sanctuary were the barrier was risen) it is mostly uncertain. On the other hands, Specters like Cyclops missed the entry about the resurrection, which I added. I have one suggestion to make, the entry at the Silver and Bronze Saints is a little bit confusing. Firstly there are the informations about Breliot and Curtiss and then it goes on with explanation to the other unknown Saints. I think firstly the explanation about the unknown Saints and recognition of Silver Saints with no name should make the start and only after then the information about Saints with name should follow. I also wanted to add the places and circumstances where the Silver Saints made their appearance so it is easier to know for people who are searching for popular faces.

Amarashiki 13:07, 2 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.240.129.68 (talk)

Hello. About Raimi, I have one thing to add. Yes, it is true that nowhere in the manga it was mention he was brought back to life, BUT suggesting he didn't because of a barrier that was created 2 years after his death doesn't seem very logical to me. So, I disagree with both situations, both he being ressurected and not - it was simply never stated that in the manga and he indeed died two years BEFORE the Athena created the barrier, so better just to omit that sentence. ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 17:19, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, you are totally right. But he could also died in another figh we didn't see, so it was wrong to write he was resurrected. There was no proof in that and it was only a suggestion from the beginning ;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.240.129.68 (talk) 10:38, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Totally. In the moment Hades ressurects Spectres after Albafica's death, you can clearly see 14 Spectres brought back to life and Gigant was the only identifiable among them, so he is the only spectre we can STATE he was ressurected by Hades' power. Raimi, Phlegyas and Fyodor died before the creation of Asmita's rosary and so far nothing confirms their ressurection.

BTW, why Markino is not mentioned or named among Hades' Spectres? ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 20:51, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I guess that although Marchino appeared in LC, (i believe it was in Necromancer's torture chamber), he was never called by his name. Sure the character looked exactly like Marchino and i wouldnt mind him being added, but some other users prefer to have something that can be unmistakable proof of the character's name or technique, etc. Skeletons are mentioned though. (unsigned edit by Onikiri)

Really? Then why Gigant is there? As far as I know, he also never presented himself, nor said his name. Honestly, is really there any doubt about Markino? He is exactly like the classic - even with Shiori's drawing - he has the same weapon, the same surplice and the same appearance. I will add tomorrow Markino, unless somebody is against it and explains why. By those reasons you said, Gigant should also be deleted then, I will also delete the information about Phlegyas and Fyodor being ressurected by Hades - there was absolutely no statement in the manga that proves that. ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 00:47, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, unlike Kurumada in his Next Dimension, Teshirogi apparently uses the same names as the Specters from the original manga (even if "Aiakos" apparenty turned out to be an alias or whatever...), so I guess it's a pretty safe bet that those two are named the same as well... 'Not sure they played enough of a role to be considered relevant in any way, but hey... Erigu (talk) 01:30, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

As I said, I dont mind if you add Marchino, its fine with me. What you say about Lycaon and Mandrake makes sense too, i dont remember them being resurrected. I am not as exaggerated as some users, who delete anything even if it is obvious, if they feel there's no source of some sort. Its strange Gigant was never deleted, considering that. As i said before, youre welcome to add him, in my opinion.Onikiri (talk) 01:39, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry but that isn't true. We can identify many known Specters during the resurrection. Among them Phlegyas and Fyodor. I can send you clear shots from their appearance if you give me your e-mail or you are signed in at saintseiyafan. Further that Markino isn't mentioned is the only reason because he is NO specter at all. The list is for all known Specters and Markino is just a Skeleton with a name. To delete Giganto would be unncessesary because he was the leader of the invasion in the classic Manga and Shiori gave him a cameo; what justify that he is mentioned for beeing in both Mangas. Further I wanted to propose that the entry for the Skeletons is put below the Specters, because firstly there are the gods, then the skeletons, then the judges and Specters. If we go by rank the should be mentioned below the last Specters. In the same article you can also mention Markino as named Skeleton. Regards Amarashiki —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.58.239.141 (talk) 00:39, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

As i Said before, I agree with you all that Marchino should be added. In fact I can do it and I will rearrange the order of the Skeletons. I never said it wasnt okay to add him, in fact I encourage it. I said that maybe other users could disagree because they want unmistakable proof of something.I never said to delete Gigant either, i used him as an example. Gigant was never mentioned by name in LC, but somehow, he has managed to stay in the list, so I have never understood the criteria of those users. For example, Golem Rock and Troll Iwan were deleted from the list, albeit they appeared in the anime adaptation, not in the manga, but they are known characters from Kurumada's manga too. If you say Lycaon and Mandrake were resurrected, perfect, i believe you, feel free to add the info, and you may add a reference so others wont delete it.Onikiri (talk) 01:27, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I looked at again the pic of the Spectres that Hades ressurected and again, I don't see Fyodor or Phelgyas at all - I count 14 spectres and none of them is those two. But I would love you to post here the proof then - just upload the image and post here the link, I'll be waiting ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 13:57, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

I too, don't understand why Rock Golen was deleted. He was seen in Alones shadow. About Troll Iwan I don't know, can't remember seeing him. Thanks for changing the Skeleton thing. Too Imaginary Voncroy: Chapter 24, page 13. Lyacon is standing between Skeleton and unknown Specter. The fourtfh counting from left side. Fyodor make his appearance in Chapter 24, page 14. He is below next to one of the guys who were in the same group like Giganto. You can recognize him at his headpiece which is very special. For uploading pictures and adding reference you guys have to help me. I don't know how this work on wikipedia. Are you signed in at some specific boards? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.58.239.141 (talk) 15:59, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

There won't be necessary :) Thank you for the information, I definately recognized Phlegyas now because of his tail and Fyodor is not as recognizable though, but I now can accept that argument though ;) Rock Golem did not appear in the manga hence why I deleted him - note: even though he does appear in the anime, this is a page about the manga itself. You could add both Rock Golem and Troll IF you note they only appeared in the anime - they weren't there in the manga. For example, the group Saints that go to Italy in the manga is Aires, Libra, Pegasus, Lionet, Unicorn, Lacerta and Hound, but in the anime Hound was already dead and they replaced him with Cetus - mixing manga and anime character appearences can turn this article way too confusing in my opinion. Thank you all for the information about the Sketelons now, it's MUCH BETTER! ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 16:19, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, we should keep the article list referring only to the manga itself. It can be noted some appeared in the anime, but maybe only when they have already appeared in the manga. If Rock and Iwan ever appear in the manga then we can add them to the list and mention they appeared in the anime before. In case you still want to show us the pictures, you can upload them to imageshack.us or other similar service and post the links here. No need to bother with this, but its up to you. Onikiri (talk) 17:02, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi guys. Cool that you agree with me. In case of Rock, I agree too that we shouldn't mix Anime and Manga. But still he wes seen in the Manga ;) http://s342.photobucket.com/albums/o427/nuclearship/Specters/?action=view&current=Rock.jpg there you can clearly see him standing behind Alone. Also in this folder is the most comprehensice list of all Specters shown ever in any media. If you like to browse, just feel free and take a tour therem, I put in a lot of work ;) Amarashiki 198.240.129.68 (talk) 14:15, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Okay, since there is confirmation they appear we can add them to the list. Although i must say that Elf Millz, well, the image from Lost Canvas has a vague resemblance, i will add him, but if someone feels its not him, then he may be removed. Abiut Rock, well, it is really him, although he is easy to overlook, but yeah, its him. So back to the list for him. Thanks for the confirmations! Onikiri (talk) 18:19, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi there. In the picture you have seen all the Specters which got stars from the Taizen, and as Gorgon Ox and Dullahan Cube were seen it must be Elf (we mustn't forget that Shiori takes some artistical freedom in this) About their stars: I thought Golem Rock is Target Star, and Elf is Weakness and Gorgon is Course. The later two can be seen correctly in the entries of the classic Saint Seiya saga (to be honest I'm also just know what I heard or read from others, but those were the ones I read the most ;) Amarashiki 77.58.239.141 (talk) 19:29, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Not really, youre mistaken about their stars. Rock's is Celestial Horned Star, Gorgon Ox is Terrestrial Running Star and Elf Millz is Terresrtial Lowly Star. Confirmed with Kurumada's original manga.Onikiri (talk) 19:48, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

C'mon, it's just a matter of translation, and you didn't get your English translations directly from the manga. One could just as well translate those as "Corner" (for Rock), "Walking" (for Ochs) and "Inferior" (for Mills), for example...

Now, if there was an official English translation of Water Margin that listed those names, that would be convenient... 'Not sure that's the case though? Erigu (talk) 20:43, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I just pointed that he seemed to be a bit confused about the individual stars of the characters, not really about the translations. Kaku is a common word for horned animals, such as ikkakujū, (unicorn), tsunogai (tusk shell), tsunogaeru (horned frog), kakugyū (bullfight), etc. and it also means angular, corner, as you mentioned, true. I just thought he seemed to have mixed up stars of other Specters, but thats all. I wasnt correcting him or anything. Too bad that Wikipedia lists all of the characters from the novel, but doesnt mention their stars. This URL: http://www.poisonpie.com/words/others/somewhat/outlaws/text/nicknames.html contains the stars of the Water Margin characters, too bad it doesnt contain the kanji either, but many coincide with Kurumada's characters. Rock's though, is mentioned in the Earthly Fiends. In LC, some stars have both earthly and heavenly versions, such as the Beast star. If you wish, you can change Rock's star to corner, the kanji means both horn, corner and angular anyway. By the way, Japanese wikipedia does list the characters, and their stars, for example, Gongsun Sheng, is tenkansei, which corresponds to Acheron Charon.Onikiri (talk) 21:19, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

This URL: http://www.poisonpie.com/words/others/somewhat/outlaws/text/nicknames.html contains the stars of the Water Margin characters

So the star names were listed in the All Men Are Brothers translation? Well, I guess we have our official source right there! Thanks!

too bad it doesnt contain the kanji either

But it lists the names of the characters, so it won't be a problem to see which corresponds to which. I'll work on a complete list and add it here for reference.

If you wish, you can change Rock's star to corner

I think it only makes sense to use the star names listed on that site you just linked to, from now on. Erigu (talk) 21:25, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Also please remember that Japanese Wikipedia also lists the characters of the novel, with their stars, unlike englisk wikipedia. Although, some of the characters in the novel dont have a match in Kurumada's manga, such as Rock, in the novel there is not a tenkakusei, only a chikakusei. There is no tenmasei in the novel, just chimasei. So we have to keep that in mind. Also, the All men are brothers translation mentions his star as the Corner Star, and his nickname as the one-horned dragons, so i think all the info from the novel should be considered.Onikiri (talk) 22:10, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion

The character's names repeat in most cases, after the first line, like this:

Terrestrial Strangeness Star, Frog Zelos. Terrestrial Strangeness Star, Frog Zelos (地奇星フログのゼーロス, Chikisei Furogu no Zērosu?) is probably the most...

I was thinking...wouldnt it be better to list the characters this way, without repeating the name:

"Terrestrial Strangeness Star, Frog Zelos (地奇星フログのゼーロス, Chikisei Furogu no Zērosu?)

Probably the most..."

I think that would help trim the article a bit, and avoid redundancy. Just a thought. Onikiri (talk) 01:20, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

(you should add new sections at the bottom of the page, or simply use the "new section" button)

I'd rather keep the nihongo template within the description...

Maybe this?

Frog Zelos

Terrestrial Strangeness Star, Frog Zelos (地奇星フログのゼーロス, Chikisei Furogu no Zērosu) is [...]

After all, on the recent Specter figures, the Latin alphabet spellings of the names don't include the "ten/chi xxx sei" part, so I think we could afford to mention it only once per character... Erigu (talk) 01:51, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

What you say is a good idea, too. I just think we should anyway include the star in the name, then the japanese template, then the description. If you guys agree, then we can make the changes to improve the article. Onikiri (talk) 04:12, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, I see you didn't exactly wait for us to agree... You know, I disagreed, just above, for example? Erigu (talk) 21:38, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

You can revert then...:)Onikiri (talk) 22:03, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Don't mind if I do... Erigu (talk) 23:45, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

About Sylph Edward

I was thinking that the katakana Etovaruto fits with the scandinavian, finnish and czech versions of the name Edward, which is Edvard, also Edvart. As Edward in katakana would be エドワード, not エトヴァルト. Should Sylph's name be spelled in the non-english version? Just something that I noticed. What do you guys think? Onikiri (talk) 22:05, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

the katakana Etovaruto fits with the scandinavian, finnish and czech versions of the name Edward, which is Edvard, also Edvart.

Are you sure about that?[33][34]

Edward in katakana would be エドワード, not エトヴァルト.

And yet, it seems we have both...[35] Erigu (talk) 22:47, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Okay then, in that case, we can leave it as it is. Onikiri (talk) 23:53, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Terrestrial Charming Star, Papillon Myu

Myu did already appear in Lost Canvas' Chapter 1, in the pages 18-19, in the shadows of Hades' spectres along with Minos, Valentine and Pharaoh. I personally do not agree with adding him to this article because, even though he did show up, he hasn't been in any part of the story, no participation whatsoever. As I said, he only appeared more as an ilustration than actually as a character. I'm just noting the information about his appearance here.

We still have 5 spectres from the classic Saint Seiya to appear in The Lost Canvas' story and those are:

- Papillon Myu

- Elf Mills

- Gorgon Ox

- Golem Rock

- Troll Iwan

Among these 5, only Myu has appeared in the manga, the other 4 I personally never saw them. Yet, Golem Rock and Troll Iwan appeared in the anime, but they have not been anywhere in The Lost Canvas' manga, hence why I do not agree with them being added to this article. I don't think we should mix manga and anime appearances. Feel free to talk about this here ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 17:20, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, no problem, we should add them once they appear in the manga. They may appear in future chapters, and once they do, they can make it to the list.Onikiri (talk) 20:52, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi guys, Rock Golem did appear. The link to it is in my upper post. Gorgon Ox and elf Mills also appeared in Alones shadow. See here http://s342.photobucket.com/albums/o427/nuclearship/Specters/?action=view&current=Ter7.jpg and here http://s342.photobucket.com/albums/o427/nuclearship/Specters/?action=view&current=Ter8.jpg. The confirmation was not only done by me. It was also crossread by friend from Italy and the US ;) Amarashiki 198.240.129.68 (talk) 14:16, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I can't see the pictures. Can someone tell in which pages or chapters of the manga they showed up? ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 23:04, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

They are in the first chapter, where you see all the no-name Specters from Sanctuary invasion standing behind Alone. Both in the lower part of the pages Amarashiki 198.240.129.68 (talk) 06:37, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, its true, he does appear next to Shinx Pharaoh.Onikiri (talk) 06:46, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

You mean the pages 14-15 of Chapter 1, where Alone presents himself as Hades in front of Tenma? I could see now Orchs there, he was one of those who were in Italy along with Cube, but I still see no Golem nor Mills. Please, could someone please upload the pictures in some other sites, 'cause I can't see anything photobucket, the images are too small, I'm very curious... ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 07:02, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I try it again...I don't have clearer shots, I'm sorry

http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o427/nuclearship/Direct%20Links/RockS.jpg

http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o427/nuclearship/Direct%20Links/Trhee.jpg

Again I can only say that Shioris intention was to show the guys who invade Sanctuary so she gave all the stars-only and the three lesser named Specters a cameo ;)

Rgards Amarashiki 198.240.129.68 (talk) 10:38, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I thought you'd show that picture. Sorry, but I don't see Mills there. Even though there's a little resemblence in the zone of the eyes and chin, his helmet doesn't really look like that. About Ochs and Cube, they're definately there, actually if you noticed this picture http://img29.imageshack.us/i/espectrosnaaldeiadetenm.jpg/ from chapter 10, supposed to potray the direct events where you took Mills/Cube/Ochs picture from, you can see the number 8, his surplice looks a lot like Ochs and then Cube was also in that group but you can see him better in this picture from chapter 11 - http://img443.imageshack.us/i/cube.jpg/. I personally don't see Mills there, but Ochs and Cube were in the group of spectres that attacked Italy. About Golem, again he had no part of the story whatsoever as Myu, but if you want to include him, I guess I can't say anything more. ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 14:29, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I added additional informations about Golem and Ochs appearances - they were very basic and said nothing whatsoever where to find them. I will do the same thing for Myu, even though I'm sure he's about to show up in the manga. About Mills, what will we decide? To me, it really doesn't look like Mills - the horns in his helmet are missing, the top of the helmet itself doesn't look like his, BUT if more people agree to add him and agree it's him, just leave him be then. ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 14:53, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Here is Myu's appearance: http://www.caballerosdelzodiaco.net/presagas/lostcanvastomo1/lost1-13.jpg Ochs' and Mills, yeah, theyre hard to discern in the links above, but its them. I will try to find them in the manga, maybe they made another appearance somewhere. By the way, i found Balron Rune here: http://www.caballerosdelzodiaco.net/presagas/lostcanvastomo6/lost6-12.jpg Should we add Balron to the list too? I guess we can Onikiri (talk) 16:21, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I had totally forgot about Balron, he showed up twice actually. But you can see him better here ;) ---> http://www.uploadimagens.com/upload/e5edb60796bf9353641f82e67d966163.jpg He was one of the 17 coloured spectres in that chapter 11 page, actually Myu's surplice is right there in above, but you can't see his face. Anyway, I am sure he is one of the Temple Guardians in Lost Canvas, so he'll be actively in the story sonner than we think.

So the only classic spectre that didn't appear anywhere is Iwan I guess... ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 16:42, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi there...I know Mills is really a hard case, but why shouldn't she draw him? She took all Specters she had setteis from the classic Manga and made their appearance. It wouldn't make any sense to leave him out. But as he cann't 100% be confirmed you can delete his entry if you want. But Rock, Myu and Lune all appeared. Lune even appeared in the demon palace chapter, he was standing in one of the entries as Alone explained to Rada and Sphinx the demon palaces ;) In the end I would suggest we leave the entries as they are, Iwan should show up soon and then we have all classic Specters showed up. As someone now allready made the efforts and wrote the entries I hope we can leave it as it is. Regards Amarashiki 198.240.129.68 (talk) 06:48, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Another question. Lune wears the Surplice that ressembles a Balrog, why is he named Balron? Amarashiki 198.240.129.68 (talk) 08:54, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Its a case of copyright-issue avoiding it seems.As the Balrog, Tolkien's creature is known as Barurogu, in Japan, that is Balrog, plainly, just like in English. The Ultima game series also have a Balrog in them and it is known as Balron in Japan. It would seem its to make pronunciation easier for the japanese, but as Tolkien's creature has its name unchanged in the japanese version of the books, i doubt it. Theres another case, Vega, the Street Fighter character, in Japan is named Balrog. So its difficult to know the reason. As Ultima and Saint Seiya call it Balron, it may as well be because of familiarity of the public with the character.Onikiri (talk) 18:03, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Specters reordered by rank.

Hi, i rearranged the Specters list according to rank, as several users were requesting. In fact, it was needed, as they were inserted very randomly, sometimes a terrestrial one among celestials. Also, I kept them in order of appearance in the manga as they were too. Only thing remaining is : Will we keep the star meanings as they are or use the Water Margin meanings? As theyre almost the same, we must decide.Onikiri (talk) 18:06, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for doing this. Could you also rearrange the Saints? Firstly the most powerful, meaning the Gold Saints. Then Silvers, then Bronzes, then the normal soldiers? Regards Amarashiki 77.58.239.141 (talk) 23:13, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I can do it, but, would it be wise? I think the current order is the logical one, but the one you mention can be used too. Maybe if the others agree to the rearrange, we can proceed with it.Onikiri (talk) 00:01, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi, I just think we should use the same order for Specters as for Saints. If the Saints starting with the low power fighters, maybe the Specters too should start with the lower ones? Amarashiki 198.240.129.68 (talk) 06:39, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Most people requested the Heavenly Specters first, then the Earthly, as the order of the list begins with the gods, from higher to lower. So thats the order as of now.Onikiri (talk) 17:36, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I totally agree. I wouldn't want it another way. But then we could also change the Saints list. First the Gold Saints, then the Silvers and then the Bronze Amarashiki 77.58.239.141 (talk) 19:21, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, that can be done too. If the others agree, then we do it.Onikiri (talk) 19:41, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I have a doubt. I don't have the volume 5 in Japanese so I can't confirm it, but the 4 Saints Dohko found in Chapter 38 were said to be Silve Saints right? Also, someone keeps changing for 3 saints, but they were four, unless that one's black hair is someone passing by... If those are Silver Saints, they should be directed to the Silver Saint part, because now they're in the bronze saint paragraph ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 04:02, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Theyre Silver Saints, i have confirmed it in the japanese edition of chapter 38. Here is a link to the page http://f20.yahoofs.com/hkblog/9zUIF62BBQeL9gpnfOHmoh9Ax6b2U8c-_4/blog/ap_20070530112902709.jpg?ib_____DFtatsRsy I dont know how many there are but theyre Silver Saints, so you can use this image as reference when adding that back to the Silver Saints paragraph.Onikiri (talk) 07:03, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi there, in the text itself I allready wrote that those are Silvers, I never mentioned them beeing Bronze Saints. The article in full was about all shown no-name Saints and therefore all were in one text, but as we now have two sections for Bronze and Silver, someone can change them if he want. But I'd like to see proof that there were four Saints, I only saw three lying there. Can anyone upload a picture were we see all four of them? Thanks. Naturally we had many Saints which we don't know if they were Silver or Bronze, but given the fact that we allready know nearly all 24 Silver Saints we must assume that most of the guys on the Argo Boat must be of Bronze...so I propose to leave the non-classified no-name Saints in the same article like the no-name Bronzies, if that would be ok for you Amarashiki 198.240.129.68 (talk) 11:40, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Here's the image: http://img33.imageshack.us/i/silversaints.jpg/ - the blue circle is Dohko and the four red circles are the Silver Saints :) ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 15:15, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

It is confirmed then theyre 4, and as i said before, theyre Silver Saints as we confirmed in the japanese edition. The artcle has been updated according to this.Onikiri (talk) 17:36, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the pic. Yes you're right ;) There were four seen. I for myself aren't counting Saints if we can't see at least a small part of armour. Because it could be anyone, a normal Sanctuary Guard or whatever. But it's ok for me as it is, I won't change anything anymore ;) Btw. thanks for changing the article. Do you guys now agree to change the ranking of the Saints? The Gold Saints at first? Someone could change that too now... Amarashiki 77.58.239.141 (talk) 14:59, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

The others users havent been talking here for days, so I think we can change the order of the Saints as we have agreed. I will do it laterOnikiri (talk) 21:27, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Great! Thank you very much ;) Amarashiki 77.58.239.141 (talk) 17:45, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Characters missing in the Manga

Hi guys, I finally found the proof that Iwan Troll was featured in the LC Manga

http://s342.photobucket.com/albums/o427/nuclearship/Direct%20Links/?action=view&current=07.png&newest=1

His silhouette is clearly distinguishable here so if you want, you can add him without violating the rules that anyone should be in the Manga to be in the Specter list ;)

Another thing. Does anybody know where Chamaeleon was seen? I can't see the Bronze Cloth of Chamaeleon and I only added here in the Bronze list because she was written down in this article long time ago. But after long searching I couldn't find here anywhere...Please help

Amarashiki 198.240.129.68 (talk) 11:25, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Hello, I also re-wrote the article of Silver Saints and I will explain it here. I will post here the pic of Chameleon :) Be back soon, I'll upload the images ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 16:09, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Chamaeleon Saint did appear. About Iwan, well, yeah, it seems its his silhouette, i think i will add him. Anyway, in the same way as Rock, he will appear anytime soon, as there are only a few Specters from Kurumada's manga left. Maybe we will get a better appearance in the next chapters.Onikiri (talk) 16:21, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

The Chameleon Saint is here ---> http://www.uploadimagens.com/upload/15e02afac30dceaebc8a90d870d09272.jpg

I also changed some things written in the Silver Saint paragraph that were not entirely correct. It was implied that Musca and Canis Major were the group of Cerberus, Auriga and Saggita. Unlike them who were got back by Hades, Musca and Canis Major were remained dead and Alone used their blood to taint his village, thus destroying it.

Musca and Canis Major are here ---> http://www.uploadimagens.com/upload/c8f5941f263529a757c18b1152b692d5.jpg

You can recognize Canis Major by his helmet, so he could not be in the Sancturay invasion to Hades' castle as it was written before in this article - someone was confusing him by Hound, who did appear in those scenes.

Another thing: I found very interesting being written that only 5 Bronze Saint were shown below Hades' castle when Hakurei decided to invaded. There were a lot more than 5 Bronze Saints there, however most are not recognizable, as it is shown in this picture alone ---> http://www.uploadimagens.com/upload/b4c8f23e7ae92110abfc3851b63eb1b4.jpg I count 13 Saints there, with some known Silver Saints among them...

Two questions: can someone show me where Cepheus is? Just to make sure.

Should we really list Lyra Saint here? Because tecnically the one that showed up was the Saint of Hakurei and Sage's generation, not the Lyra Saint of Lost Canvas war.

I actually liked the idea to present the number of Bronze and Silver Saint that were shown in this manga and out of curiosity many people wants to know about them :) ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 16:24, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I could see here now ;). Musca and Canis were going in the second mission and you could see at least Musca standing there as Shion talked to Tenma. About the thing in Italy. Most of the people were only Sanctuary guards. There were only a few Saints in full. I count 12 Saint and you can take out 5 Silver Saints and so there are seven left. Yes you can change the article to seven. My intenation always was to only count what is clearly distinguishable. It couldn't see that some of them were allready seen in other mass-scenes so I'm always only taking what is clearly a new-appearance. Cepheus is here http://s342.photobucket.com/albums/o427/nuclearship/Direct%20Links/?action=view&current=13.png in the right lower corner, it's the same guy standing in the mass picture in the outer right corner. Not quiet sure about Lyra...he wasn't seen and I think he won't be seen again (maybe they want him to remain a legend and don't let him die in mass-scenes together with the other Silvers *g*). He made this special guest-appearance and I think as long as there is no detailed article about him it should be ok as just beeing mentioned. The number of Bronze and Silver Saints like the Specters are a thing that makes me an many other fans crazy. We want to know everything about every single Saint so I thought it would be valuable to have the counts here ;) Amarashiki 77.58.239.141 (talk) 17:49, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Ah hell, you are right ;) It was really Breliot there and not the Musca Saint http://s342.photobucket.com/albums/o427/nuclearship/Direct%20Links/?action=view&current=ss_lost_canvas_ch8_01.jpg. So that means Breliot was allready involved much earlier in the story arc. Wouldn't he deserve an own article as he participated in more action than the others? He was even featuered clearly in the Anime ;) Amarashiki 77.58.239.141 (talk) 18:00, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think Musca and Canis were in a second mission: it was implied in the manga they were in the same mission as Cerberus, Saggita and Auriga when Cerberus were doing his report to Athena - we got that confirmation when Musca and Canis were lying on the floor in Hades' castle. The "second mission" Amarashiki mentioned was the one that Libra, Aires, Hound, Lacerta, Lionet, Unicorn and Pegasus participated, once the first failed when the group of Silver Saints was killed. When Shion talked to Tenma in the manga about going in that "mission"? I don't recall that.

Amaraskiki, I don't think that one is Cepheus. You can see that Saint in this mass-group scene ---> http://www.uploadimagens.com/upload/e2b27d0d70478416c28eddf187101e51.jpg, he is the one inside the red circle and if you noticed, his cloth isn't of Cepheus'. ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 19:10, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. As I said, I agree with you about the mission. I was wrong before and just admited your good knowledge in this ;) And for the Cepheus, here too, I said it's the same one like in the mass-scene. And I'm sure it is the Cepheus Saint. Look at the shoulder parts and the area around his neck. For comparing you should use the Manga version of the cloth and bear in mind that Shiori takes here artistical freedom in many designs. For exapmle Canes Venatici looks different in every picture we see, in some of the smaller pictures the only thing you can distinguish him is because of his "ears" which are recognizable everytime ;) Amarashiki —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.58.239.141 (talk) 19:31, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Btw, in that mass-group scene you can see a female saint with black hair - do you think it's Ophiucus or a new female saint? ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 19:42, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Its not Ophiuchus, its an unamed Saint and im sure she wont appear again. Ophiuchus appeared during Sekishiki Tenryōha.Onikiri (talk) 20:07, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

As I thought, thanks ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 20:10, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

This is funny, I was also thinking about this girl a long time. Who could she be?? Maybe Chamaeleon? Guys, for now. No one from the classic era is missing am I right? Even if the other guy isn't Cepheus wouldn't it be weird that he would be the only Saint from the whole saga who doesn't got a counterpart? And one last concern about the rankings. We have Hypnos, Thanatos and Pandora as own sub-articles but shouldn't it be a category for Deities where Hypnos, Thanatos and the Dreamd-Gods are in it? And Pandora belongs to "others" like Skeletons? The Sanctuary Guards too, are in the "others" section so maybe we can further adjust the categories and articles ;) Amarashiki 77.58.239.141 (talk) 22:21, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Chamaeleon Saint has appeared already, and Cepheus Saint did too during Sekishiki Tenryōha. Only Saints from Kurumada's manga that havent appeared are the Black Saints and I doubt they will. Guilty hasnt appeared too but he wont appear either as his constellation is unknown, and the only canonical Saint that hasnt properly appeared is Crateris Suikyō, and he wont appear as such either...unless Teshirogi wants to use him as the Crateris Saint now that he is no longer the Garuda Specter. Also, there another canonical Saint missing, and its the other Gemini Saint, so we will have to wait.Onikiri (talk) 00:10, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Can you point it out where you have seen them? Maybe with red circles? (sorry for bothering you *g*) I see a female Saint but the headpice and breastplate doesn't look like Chamaeleon or Ophichius Cloth. But maybe she was somewhere else. Hmm...Still today the Black Saints and Guilty aren't true constellation Saints for me. I think they just replicate popular cloths and so I don't miss them in LC ;) Crateris was established in ND so it is ok that he wasn't featured here ;) Amarashiki 198.240.129.68 (talk) 06:51, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

I also thought about the Saint in Italy. Two of them are the same that are accompanying the Perseus Saint to Kanon Island, so I think we don't have to change Five to 7. 3 of the guys which were only seen in very small pictures I think I recognized also on the ship of Argo. Should we leave it as it is? Only if there are new introductions or should we mention all appearances? Amarashiki 198.240.129.68 (talk) 15:07, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

The Chamaeleon Saint is here: http://www.uploadimagens.com/upload/15e02afac30dceaebc8a90d870d09272.jpg . Its clearly her, no mistake. About what you mention, maybe we should leva it as it is until more characters are introduced or are drawn bigger and clearer...sometimes theyre just filler characters and thus dont need to be added to the article. Regards.Onikiri (talk) 16:42, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry then, I missunderstood you. I thought you meant that Chamaeleon was appearing at Sekishiki Tenryōha. But I still cannot see the Ophichius Saint in that scene Amarashiki 77.58.243.218 (talk) 17:41, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Ophiuchus is here: http://www.caballerosdelzodiaco.net/presagas/lostcanvastomo92/lost92-02g.JPG There are several Saints in the pic: Bear, Wolf, Kaitos, Hound, Hydra, Sagitta, Ophiuchus, Kentaurus, Unicorn, Canis Major, Cepheus, Lyra, Heracles, Cancer, Taurus, Aries and Pisces. Ophiuchus is right next to Canis Major Saint, with Sagitta at her left, and Kentaurus and Bear above her. Check her mask headpiece, and breastplate and panty piece, its unmistakably her.Onikiri (talk) 18:15, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Pandora should be above the description of the all spectres, right after the Gods - she is, after all, the leader of Hades' army of spectres, her rank is even higher than the three Judges'. ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 02:12, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

She's up again. I also made an entry for deities. Can anyone extend the article about Taurus' apprentice. I think only one of them survived in the end. But I'm not sure anymore Amarashiki 198.240.129.68 (talk) 06:20, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

About Ophiuchus, look at her shoulderparts of the armour and the two bracelets on here upper arm. I don't think it's her. She just wears a normal female Saint cloth which is not covering much. The one similiar thing would be the ear-parts. But couldn't that be also someone else? Regards Amarashiki 198.240.129.68 (talk) 10:24, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, i noticed the shoulderparts look simpler, but it seems very much like Ophiuchus. In any case, if its not her, she would be an unknown Saint, so theres no way to add her to the list. Its more likely for her to be Ophiuchus than an unknown Saint. Maybe she will appear again, as the one in the picture is the Ophiuchus of the previous era.Onikiri (talk) 16:04, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I took a closer look. In the next chapter we see the Ophichius Saint clearly, she is standing next to Cepheus and before Heracles. So it would be the same position, it could be really her, even if the two are totally different drawn ;) Amarashiki 198.240.129.68 (talk) 11:22, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Uh...thats the one i was talking about. Guess you misunderstood xDOnikiri (talk) 16:31, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry then, I thought you mean the female Saint in the very first picture as Hakurei summons all together... Regards Amarashiki 80.39.95.183 (talk) 23:17, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Celestial or Heavenly or just new/recently changes

Hi there. Now all the Specters had their stars renamed, but I thought this idea wasn't agreed by everyone and it should've been left as it is. Celestials and Terrestrials remain as they are? I'm not a judge here, nor have I wrote much, but as I got it in here I thought there are some inofficial rules around contributors, that essential changes are always written down first in the disscussion thread and with agrees of other they are executed. But now it seems this doesn't have any meaning anymore. Have I missed anything in my holidays? ;) Amarashiki 80.39.95.183 (talk) 23:24, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

I have another thing. The article of Dhoko was changed and Gordon, Queen and Sylphid were deleated and wrote anew with a single "three Specters". As there were three named Specters and all of them have counterparts in the classic manga I cannot understand why they should've been deleated. In every other article the Specters/Adversaries of the respective Gold Saints were named but here it was deleated with no reason it appears. If the reason is that the article is too long you also have to rewrite almost all of the descriptions in here and a new edit war will start :( 80.39.95.183 (talk) 23:31, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

About Heavenly and Earthly, it was agreed several weeks ago to use the meanings from the english translations of Water Margin, as it was the inspiration for Kurumada's stars. Heavenly and Earthly are far more accurate than Celestial and Terrestrial, if you know japanese you will understand me. So, thats the reason. About Dohko, the article is more or less the same, Gordon and Queen are mentioned i believe, but they can be added back if they were removed. The thing is, that we must not tell everything in the manga in detail, it is only a brief summary, so we have to remove all unnecessary details.Onikiri (talk) 00:19, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

OK, sorry for that. I can't remember that this was agreed back there. But it's ok for me if the majority wants it that way. I just thought Celestial and Heavenly are the same translation for a specific word in another language and the common name around Fans and Fandom writers was always Celestial so the only factor in the translation would be the more popular. Anyway - I won't change anything here. Gordon and Queen are back in the article now, it's ok as it is and I know we cannot provide detailed information about every battle, but leaving out the names of those well-known Specters wasn't right in my opinion ;) Amarashiki 198.240.129.68 (talk) 10:35, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure how Onikiri can argue that "Heavenly" and "Earthly" are more accurate, but considering the Water Margin characters are apparently referred to as "Heavenly Spirits" and "Earthly Fiends" in English, I think it only makes sense to use the same terms. Erigu (talk) 23:25, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Hello there, I was once again reading the classic mangas from Viz Media. There they are named celestial Specters so wouldn't it be logical to name the Wiki entries the same way? Even that there is a connection to the water margins, in the end it is about Saint Seiya and the Specters are just taking names from those list. Amarashiki 77.58.236.78 (talk) 14:39, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Cerberos

Should we add Cerberos? the dog that attack Tenma twice, and is the little pet of Alone? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.246.52.130 (talk) 12:00, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't think so. He's just an inhabitant of hell or in this case Lost Canvas. There are also demons of the hell, ghouls and other sorts of beeings which are not directly be part of Hades army of Specters. Other thoughts? Amarashiki 198.240.129.68 (talk) 16:11, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Maybe we should wait for further development of the character to confirm its Cerberus. It looks like it and it even appeared in the intro of the anime adaptation, but it certainly looks nothing like Cerberus in Kurumada's original manga, so it would be wise to wait. Since the chapters of the Demon Temples are to be published soon, maybe we will get some more info on it. Onikiri (talk) 23:10, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Synopsis

Sorry for opening the thread in here. But it seems no one is watching the disscussion thread in the main section. There I wanted to ask if anyone can add the synposis for the newer volumes? I'm not that experienced to add them ;) Amarashiki 198.240.129.68 (talk) 10:11, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

You can do it yourself, its not that hard, just pay attention to grammar and try to condense the info as much as possible, as it must be simply a short summary. I would do it but i dont have the volumes.Onikiri (talk) 21:11, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

¨

Hi, the problem is the format of the cells and columns for a new volume (16), I wanted to copy the code but as the last one is the one with other codes for lines and signs I'm a bit helpless. Could you add the newest volume? Then I could add all synposis ;) Amarashiki 77.58.242.228 (talk) 22:17, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I have added the code for you. The cell is ready to have the info added, i would add it but as i told you i dont have the volume, so i dont know which chapters are included in it. If you have the info, please add it, any additional formating like japanese template or references will be added later if you dont know how to do it yourself.Onikiri (talk) 22:47, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm...seems someone got ahead of youOnikiri (talk) 23:50, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks to you guys ;) I will add them fastest way possible. I'll also try to add the info which cloth charts are contained. One more thing. The first part of the site cannot be edited (or I just don't see it. there should also be a change to sixteen volumes and in the sidebar with the Manga information it needs new a 16 in it *g*) Amarashiki 198.240.129.68 (talk) 09:59, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I made the first one now as my books finally showed up. Can anyone tell me how to insert the counter for cloth schematics? I wanted to make a second list on the opposite site of the chapters with all schematics in there. Do I have to use a certain code? Thanks Amarashiki 77.58.242.228 (talk) 14:25, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Tokusa

I think we should add him as specter, not others. As he seems to be one of the guardians displayed in front of the demon temples —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.102.8.23 (talk) 22:55, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Tokusa as a spectre has actually been featured before in the boat arc among the spectres under Aiacos' control, so it's incorrect to say he has only been shown in Yuzuriha gaiden 193.137.16.115 (talk) 01:33, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Yep, I also think he should be only in the Specters section. There it can also be mentioned what happens in the Yuzu Gaiden. He was not only seen on the boat from Aiacos, he was also clearly deciptable as one of the 8 demon palace guardians. Amarashiki 77.58.242.228 (talk) 14:01, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for editing. Btw, in his post it is mentioned he was introduced in the Gaiden, but he was introduced very early as Veronica summoned him against Yuzuriha. And I was asking myself why there is a difference in "continuity". The gaiden is part of the main continuity and is fully canon. So I don't see why it has to be mentioned that things happen in other "continuities" as it is all the same. In Episode G the gaidens were even published together with the main stories in the same tankobons - should also happens here as this is normal publishing cycle. If you insist of keeping them seperate I'd propose to name it main storyline and not main continuity because that sound as if the story isn't real canon and would happen somewhere else ;) Amarashiki 77.58.242.228 (talk) 21:00, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

First of all, nothing in Lost Canvas is truly canon. It is within its own continuity, but not in the Saint Seiya universe, as Kurumada has confirmed Next Dimension as canon and LC as an alternate story. Using main storyline is okay with me, no problem. I will check what you say about him being introduced by Veronica, so we can add that info. RegardsOnikiri (talk) 20:16, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I was never saying anything about the classic series. This is the discussion board for Lost Canvas and it has it's own canon as every story has it. And in this relation the Gaiden is in the same "canon" as the main storyline and it makes no sense excluding events or characters from there. Just my point in this. Amarashiki 77.58.242.228 (talk) 22:01, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Agasha

Should we add Agasha?, the young girl that was a protected by Albafica? Her name was revelead in the OVA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.102.11.85 (talk) 00:35, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I added Agasha. Gabriel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.246.52.130 (talk) 19:20, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Temporin'in

Onikiri, its not speculation, look at his hands position before he attacks Defteros, its the same used by Shaka against Aiolia and the same of the used to perform the mudra, also its the same line that he uses against Aiolia, that he will erase his doubts (in this case, Defteros doubt). He just doesn't say the attack, but its the same attack. Also, Tenma didn't shout the attack of Pegasus Suiseiken against Morpheus, or Dégel who didn't say Kalitso or Freezing Coffin, but its seems clearly that both are the attacks used.

So i believe we should use this one.

Gabriel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.246.52.130 (talk) 19:11, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Gabriel. Asmita definately uses Temporin'in. Btw, Shiori was brilliant in the use of that technique, much better and efficient than in the classic ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 00:16, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

You can say it is Dharmacakra Mudra because of his hands, but the effects are not exactly the same. If the flashback ends without confirmation, then I will add it myself. But for now, lets wait a little to be sureOnikiri (talk) 17:25, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Cloth schematics

Hello there I want to add the info in which volume which cloth schematics were too see. But I don't know the codes to insert them. Onri, can you help me in this? Or anyone else? For example, Volume 9 would need a second list under the line of the ISBN code on the opposite of the chapters a new line with the name cloth schematics, or cloth diagrams or whatever would be appropriate and then list on

- Crane Yuzuriha
- Nasu Veronica

Then I hope I can copy and paste that for the other chapters while I add the synopsis for the remaining ones.

Thanks for your help

Amarashiki 198.240.130.75 (talk) 09:17, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

The only way to do that is to use the ChapterListCol2 tag, as what you want, can be done only that way. You cant create rows as you want, you must use the preset tags to create the boxes, so its somewhat limited. Insert this code after the last chapter name in the chapter list, and it will create what you want:

| ChapterListCol2 = Bonus material: Cloth Schematics for Crane Yuzuriha,Nasu Veronica

Just edit the names and thats it.This tag can also be useful, better than the previous one:

| VolumeExtras = 

Onikiri (talk) 17:54, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

That's something to be discussed on Talk:Saint Seiya: The Lost Canvas, not here, and since it's only one page and is not mentioned in the volumes' index I don't find it important.Tintor2 (talk) 17:56, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Onikiri. I know you would help me ;) But unforunately it made a box out of my post, but I didn't want that ;) I jus add the - before them to count. Actually I just like to have some space between the chapter and the cloth schematic. Like this

070. Ideals carried on (託された想い, Takusareta omoi?) _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Cloth schematics

071. Laceration (斬撃!, Zangeki?) _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Crane Yuzuriha

072. The lineage of Dreams (夢の眷族, Yume no kenzoku?) _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Nasu Veronica

073. Dreamworld (夢界, Mukai?)

074. Discomfort (違和感, Iwakan?)

Sorry, I can't make any space in here, had to use underline, but there would be nothing normaly :(

To Tintor: Sorry for asking this here, but there is no one answering in the general Lost Canvas thread and as I need help in this, I have to write it here... Amarashiki 77.58.242.228 (talk) 19:40, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

But that does not mean nobody will answer that. I suppose than more than one editor has such page in their watchlist like me.Tintor2 (talk) 21:54, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Canon Island edit conflict

It seems there is some disagreement about Canon Island. Well, the problem can be solved by knowing the fac that, despite the name, it is a fictional place. True, Kurumada named Kanon after the actual Canon Island, he stated so, as he was going to name him Sega, but after reading the name in some book he liked it. There's a settei for Hades arc episodes that even spells his name with c, not k, although the katakana for that would be キャノン, here http://www.icavalieridellozodiaco.net/archivi/settei/set0103.jpg

So, the name of the place is Canon Island although it does not refer to the actual place, as in Kurumada's original manga its location is mentioned to be in the Mediterranean Sea, not far away from Sanctuary, and the real Canon Island is in Ireland.

The kana for the island name spells Kanon, not Canon, true. So it can be said both names are correct, the one because of the kana, and the other because of the origin of the name. So i guess it should be left as any of both, as it is simply a fictional location, without referencing the real place.Onikiri (talk) 17:54, January 22 2010 (UTC)

True, Kurumada named Kanon after the actual Canon Island

Well, he named the character after an island. We don't know if it was Canon Island, and it even seems somewhat doubtful, considering that would be "Kyanon-tō", not "Kanon-tō".

There's a settei for Hades arc episodes that even spells his name with c, not k, although the katakana for that would be キャノン, here http://www.icavalieridellozodiaco.net/archivi/settei/set0103.jpg

But I'd think the spelling "Kanon" (as seen in the original manga) trumps that... Erigu (talk) 11:45, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Dohko's Master and attack

Should we wait to add that Dohko's master became a dragon or not?

Also, should we add that the attack he used to destroy the Rising Darkness was Rozan Sho Ryu Ha, or not. Because, as Shiori has already done before (Tempo Rinin, Excalibur, Freezing Coffin) the position of the attack and his performance is the same as the classic manga, the Saint just don't say the attack.

For me, we should add the Rozan Sho Ryu Ha and wait a little more for the Dohko's master paragraph. What do you guys think?

Gabriel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.246.52.130 (talk) 15:44, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

About the Specters' Stars from Water Margin

I was thinking that in order to preserve consistency with the other Saint Seiya articles, specially the list of characters from Kurumada's manga, we should use the same stars for the Specters in all articles. I know LC is using now the equivalent star from All men are brothers or Water Margin, and that's ok since they're the same thing, only the translation varies a bit or uses synonyms, but I think we should use in the LC article the same stars from the list of the original manga and maybe write a short note at the end of each Specter description explaining that his star corresponds to this or that star in Water Margin, something like this: For example Heavenly Fierce Heroic Star Garuda Aiacos would be Heavenly Valiance Star (like it was before), and at the end of his description we can include: His star corresponds to the Heavenly Fierce Heroic Star from Water Margin. And do this for all the Specters. Of course, it would be done only if you guys agree. like always. Onikiri (talk) 07:07, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree, but only if there aren't any translations of the names of the LC specters in any official products that contradict that change. I don't know if any exist, but if not, this does seem like a good way to improve the article and subsequently all others related to Saint Seiya. Cyn starchaser (talk) 13:57, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

There are hardly official products with the names of the stars as they are virtually always ignored in most translations. Maybe if some more contributors agree, the modification of the article can be started. If they dont say their opinion, well, it means they agree.Onikiri (talk) 01:50, 11 May 2011 (UTC)