Talk:List of Seattle Seahawks starting quarterbacks

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I've created the page of the starting quarterbacks for the Seattle Seahawks. In order to do this I had to answer the basic questions - what constitutes a Seattle Seahawk starting quarterback? Who follows whom?

My answer to these questions is that the moment that a player starts an NFL game for the Seahawks, he makes this list. All players are listed in the order in which he started his first game for the Seahawks. I realize that this results in information that is different than popular mindset, for example it means that it was Steve Myer, not Dave Krieg, who followed Jim Zorn. In reality, they both did, but Myer was there first, so he gets the nod on this list. -- Don Sowell 00:42, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

It is silly and wrong to say that Steve Myer preceded Dave Krieg as quarterback. They are separated on the roster by at least 5 seasons! Not only is this different than the "popular mindset", it is different than reality. Before you go adjusting the players' pages to conform to your personal list, you need to consider their reign as starter and not just go by their first game. If there was a page for Myer he would be both preceded and succeeded by Jim Zorn.

Jim Zorn started the game immediately before Dave Krieg became the starter. That is the correct information people are looking for, not your arbitrary ranking. --Jstrap 21:15, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

At last someone who actually would like to talk about this! Fantastic!

People turn to an encyclopedia for factual information. If we remove Steve Myer from the run of Seahawk quarterbacks, we're ignoring the direct fact that he was a Seahawk starting QB. What do you suggest to address this?

Your comments are appriciated, but simply saying that Zorn started the game before Krieg doesn't help. Having a solution that addresses the existance of a Steve Myer and addresses your concern would. --Don Sowell 21:43, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your list and you're obviously a Seahawks fan so we're on the same side in the whole scheme of things. My thinking is that your list is fine, and it's certainly valid to list them on it by the date of their first start. I just don't see why this list needs to determine who is the "predecessor" and "successor" on the individual player articles. The word "predecessor" means "one who came before", and in it's usual meaning it would be the one immediately before. So in the example of Krieg it would be Zorn. I think the biggest problem is you're trying to use your list for something it isn't designed to do. I think the "immediately before" and "immediately after" test should apply to the info boxes, rather than be tied to the order in this article.

My suggestion would be to take a broad view of the reign of each starter when it comes to the list and the player articles. Perhaps, as you've done, put in the duration of their service as starters. There will be overlap, but I think most people looking at this page would have enough understanding of football to appreciate the nature of injuries and the QB position. I don't think you necessarily have to separate "Main starters" from the others. Just include the first and last dates of their starts, overlap be damned. If the player is known enough to have their own article then the details can be listed there.

I'm not trying to deny that Steve Myer was ever a Seahawks starting quarterback, or that he doesn't belong on your list. It just doesn't make sense to say he was the predecessor to Krieg on Krieg's page, as "predecessor" is commonly understood. Jstrap 20:59, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that we're close to an agreement here!

For the record, I think that the sucession boxes are a bad idea in this case. They work great for presidents, kings, olympic gold medal winners in the 100 meter dash and so on. But on things that don't have a clear definition or change rapidly, they aren't so hot.

That said, I'm not naive enough to think that they're going away any time soon. They are a good snapshot into some information for wikipedia readers. I just want that information to represent something consistant and meaningful.

So here's the new proposal for QB sucession boxes:

We differentiate betgween main starters and fill in starters. Each year, the team usually has 1 main starter as definied by the view of the head coach. Whoever the head coach says is the man, that's who we add to the list of main starters. If there's a question on this, we evaluate it on a case by case basis.

Only main starters are listed in the predecessor and sucessor boxes.

A main starter has his presecessor and sucessor listed for his sucession box. If he had multiple reigns as the main starter, we list two sucession boxes.

A fill in starter's predecessor is the main start that he filled in for. His sucessor is the main starter the year the fill in last started a game. This means that if his backup role spans several main starters, we list the first and last as judged by the year of his first and last fill in start.

Exception, if the fill in starter is current, such as with Seneca Wallace, we leave the sucessor box at none. Since we're an encyclopedia and not a fortune telling service, I don't think we should predict the future. Once Matt comes back and plays a game, Wallace's sucessor gets filled in.

That's it. There are some odd cases that aren't covered here, but the basic ideas are solid. It means that Steve Myer's page would list Zorn as his predecessor and sucessor and Zorn's page would only list Krieg as his sucessor. Myer would continue to be listed on the starting QBs page as would every other starting QB.

Since there's only two people talking about this admittedly niche issue right now, I'd be happy to enact it if we both agreed. If anyone else wants to jump into the conversation, they're very welcome to do so! --Don Sowell 19:48, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

It's been a few weeks since I put forward the new proposal and no outcry has been written, so I'm going to go ahead and enact it. --Don Sowell 01:26, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Gino Torreta

Took him off the list...Gino NEVER STARTED a game as a Seattle Seahawk. He came in relief of Mirer in 1996 ONCE and it was against Oakland in the last game of the season. He threw a TD pass to Joey Galloway and ended with something like 13 yards passing (after sacks).

Somehow we managed to win that game in spite of the offense.

Saying Gino "started" would be like saying Travis Brown started in 2000 when he took over for a series in the December Faider game (which DJack caught a GWing TD from Kit with :30 left on the clock). after Kit and Brock couldn't play.

Gino "Appeared" in a game, much like Travis Brown "Appeared" in a game...Appearing and starting are a whole different stat.

So being that Mirer "Started" that game I changed Mirer's last start to that one and added a win to his career record.

Glad to see the interest in this page! Please make that noteon Gino's page as well. Also, please sign your comments. That helps everyone! -- Don Sowell 06:09, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I headed over to Gino's page to find my past research into that game (http://www.jt-sw.com/football/boxes/index.nsf/Games/1996-17-sea-oak) and there's a small problem: Rick Mirer didn't play in that game. The box score lists Stan Gelbaugh and Gino as the only Seahawk QBs. Stan threw 2 passes and Gino went 5 for 16 with a touchdown for 41 yards.

That box score still lists Gino before Stan, though, and it's customary although not required, to list the starter first.

So before we make more changes, lets figure out what the deal is. Either your memory is faulty about Mirer playing or that box score is wrong. If it is true that your memory is faulty about Mirer playing, I'd request a second confirmation that Stan actually started the game from somewhere. Given that he threw a touchdown in the third quarter that day, it certainly is possible that he didn't start, but why is he listed first on the box score? -- Don Sowell 06:34, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I've got the 1996 media guide right here.

Paraphrasing:

Mirer started, Gelbaugh came in relief after Rick was injured and was injured himself blocking on a run by Lamar Smith, Gino Toretta signed just 2 weeks before came in and led the Seahawks to a come from behind victory".

Gino or Stan didn't get the start that day in Oakland. Mirer did, side note. That was the last game played as a Seahawk by Mirer (traded for pick that ended up netting Shawn Springs) and Gelbaugh (released). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.22.11.97 (talk) 13:44, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Great research! I've updated Gino's page and contacted the maintainer of the site that keeps those box scores. Thank you! --Don Sowell 16:05, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

New section

I've added a new section to the page, focusing on the main quarterbacks in an attempt to address the concerns above. Please comment on it and how it should be used in the sucession boxes. --Don Sowell 22:24, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

First and last start date

I'd like to list the dates of the first and last start for each QB, but there seems to be some difference of opinion on this information. SPecifically, the first start date has been removed from the list and replaced by the years the QB served. I'm thinking all of this information is good, but I'm not sure how to present it appropriately. Please discuss! --Don Sowell 22:20, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Opening Section

User Pats1 removed the opening section stating that it was POV. This surprises me since the opening section is designed to answer the questions: "What constitutes a Seahawk Starting Quarterback?" and "What constitutes a main starting Seahawk Quarterback?". Both of these questions have to be answered in order to have a list of starting QBs at all. Explaining how those are decided upon can't be ignored - it's necessary information for the article.

For anyone who would want to revert the opening section, please address these points first. Thanks! -- Don Sowell 06:17, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

The problem is with this:

"These are the quarterbacks who were considered the main starter by the Seahawk head coach for over half of the season. The main starter being hurt or otherwise unable to start doesn't get a man on this list, he must be the prime starter for the given year.

"Considered the main starter by the head coach" - says who? This is certainly original research. This whole first list is completely arbitrary - you decided that half a season was the cut-off for being a "main starter" and used that. I'm sorry, but that's POV. If you're going to have a list of starting quarterbacks, then you need to include every player who started a game at quarterback or no players at all. Making any other totally arbitrary distinction between "main" and "replacement starter" violates WP:NPOV.

Also, as far as the chronology goes, there is no reason the current starter, Hasselbeck, shouldn't be at the top of the list. Seneca Wallace is not a more recent starter than Hasselbeck. Going by the date of the quarterback's last start is a better option, but an even better one would be to list multiple stints for quarterbacks who had multiple starting stints. This is commonplace in chronological tables like this. In other words, it would be, from top to bottom, Hasselbeck, Wallace, Hasselbeck, Dilfer, Hasselbeck, Huard, etc. Pats1 ^T/C 20:02, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

First of all, thanks for taking an interest in this page. That's great to see!

Second, I suggest you take some time to read the discussions that have happened on this page over the last year. There is no original research being done here. Every starter is listed. The main starter designation came about because of the succession boxes that people are so enamored with. They work well with things like US Presidents, but are not nearly as good for NFL starting QBs.

Yes, the original research is done with the "main starter" listing. This isn't about the succession boxes. This is about this article. You don't need to make a list of "main starters" for those succession boxes can have what they want. Two wrongs don't make a right. Pats1 ^T/C 00:58, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Put simply, without a main starter, we have counter-intuitive but correct claims that Steve Myer preceded Dave Krieg. With the main starter designation, we have Jim Zorn preceding Krieg. I'm all for getting rid of those succession boxes, myself, but since I don't expect that to happen, I believe that they should mean something consistent. So if we have to designate someone as a main starter, that definition was the best we came up with last year. If you'd like to propose a better definition for main starter or a way that we could remove the need to name one and address the needs of those succession boxes, please do so! In the meantime, I'm replacing the main starter heading that you removed until such time that you do so.

I don't think you understand what I mean. NO definition for "main starter" is NPOV, except for all being "main," of course. Arbitrarily picking QBs to make "main" and "not" is arbitrary and POV no matter how you go about doing it. The full list is the only one that is NPOV. Pats1 ^T/C 00:58, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

If you'd like to improve the table by listing each stint that a Seahawk QB spent as the starter, that would be fantastic! I've yet to find good enough sources to back that level of detail up. Come to think of it, I think I'll add the citations of the places where I have found the information that I've added to this page. That may help us all out!

If you cannot find sufficient sources to do so, then go with the last start as the sort. But having the current starter third on the list is counter-intuitive. Pats1 ^T/C 00:58, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Putting them in order of last start runs into problems, though, right off the bat. It would have Steve Myer listed as the first Seahawk Quarterback instead of Jim Zorn since Steve's last start was before Jim's last start. Perhaps you'd like to set up the table to be sorted by whatever category the user chooses? --Don Sowell 23:03, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Nothing's perfect ;). That is a good idea though. 2007 NFL Draft or any other draft article employ self-sorting tables. Pats1 ^T/C 00:58, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Table

I am going to change the table to the type that is on the Colts, Bears, and others starting Quarterback pages. Southwood Paul (talk) 19:33, 20 December 2010 (UTC)