Talk:List of Starbucks union petitions in the United States/Archive 1

Archive 1

Scope

Open to other potential titles—just went with the most natural description I could muster. As for scope, there tends to be press coverage about each of these union petitions as novel for this chain in particular, and followed up by information on the vote and its result, hence the columns. If you have strong feelings about merger, please discuss here before taking to AfD. czar 03:51, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Neutrality

I'm wondering if we ought to remove the ya/no from the last column. It's implying that "for union" is positive and "against union" is negative. Not sure if the idea of pass vs fail in terms of voting is enough to outweigh the idea that it feels like a "pro union" list because of the color-coding. (I am pro union, just trying to be a good Wikipedian). SquareInARoundHole (talk) 00:00, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

I would say that the color coding is not editorial/opinionated because it is reflected on the success or failure of the petition. The page is about the petitions that exist, and the aim of the petitions is to conduct a successful vote to unionize, so there is a clear success/fail state derived from the petitioning itself that's independent of anyone's views on unions, at least in my opinion. 128.151.150.25 (talk) 06:28, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

I agree with the IP. --JBL (talk) 22:35, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Good rationale! SquareInARoundHole (talk) 23:41, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Missing lots

So according to NPR there are 20 that have unionized and 220 that have filed. Our list currently has 16 that have unionized and 120 that have filed. Anyone have good ideas for tracking them down? (Also apologies for throwing in some half-assed bareurl references, it's a real hassle to format them by hand and better down by someone with automated tools.) --JBL (talk) 22:38, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

The table here lists 225 stores (but without individual news references). --JBL (talk) 02:33, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Ok I was able to use this to track down the ones that have already had their votes counted, that's now up-to-date. But comparing the list of 220 with our list of 120 and finding individual references for the other 100 is far too much work for me with my current method. --JBL (talk) 11:36, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Not all of them have been covered specifically in the news yet, hence the shorter list, and as you mentioned, tracking them manually has been an enormous task. SquareInARoundHole (talk) 23:40, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Yeah I've been trying targeted web searches, and I've been able to fill in a bunch that way, but it's slow going. The perfectunion.us list is also not perfect -- I've caught a couple of duplicates, for example. I think it's reasonable to hope for convergence in the long-term, though. --JBL (talk) 00:19, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Notable

I'm struggling to comprehend how paperwork at a fast-food chain has notability. What next, List of Honda recalls? Should this article exist? Certainly one or two might deserve mention on the Starbucks page. But hundreds? Will it go to tens of thousands world-wide? Or more, as presumably some will be petitioned on more than one occasion. Interestingly some of the most interesting ones last century, aren't included here. I'm pondering an AFD - but wanted to discuss further, in case there's something here I'm missing. Nfitz (talk) 17:57, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Uh sure you could waste your time sending to AfD a list whose individual members all receive local news coverage, and which has received (as a broader phenomenon) widespread national coverage in dozens of top-quality sources. —JBL (talk) 18:24, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Further: this article scope is national (see the title) and there are in total about 9000 US Starbucks locations, so neither "world-wide" nor "tens of thousands" is possible, even in principle. Also the idea that the list covers "paperwork" is ... weird, to say the least. In principle this list could be a section of the article Starbucks unions; I don't think that's a great idea but I don't feel strongly about it. JBL (talk) 19:35, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the local coverage has to do with it. I could write List of Wayne Rooney goals (over 500!) using mostly national coverage and international coverage, let alone local - but that doesn't mean I should. I question why you'd think that one country's locations might be relevant, but other countries, with a longer history of Starbucks unionisation isn't. This can all easily be dealt with in Starbucks - which already has an overly and dull section on this topic. Also, why with 9,000 current stores in the United States of America, and hundreds if not thousands previously closed locations - why could it not be "tens of thousands" - I don't understand why you are arguing such points - none of which would impact a decision to AFD the article. Do you have any solid reasons the article shouldn't be AFD'd, or are you just going to throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks? Nfitz (talk) 20:15, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

"Battleground mentality" indeed, glad you have that degree of self-awareness. (Though perhaps you should start your response by owning up that you followed me here from an AfD?) By all means, send it to AfD, let's see what happens. --JBL (talk) 21:41, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

I admit I did indeed see your unacceptable personal attack on User:Joseph2302 at WP:Articles for deletion/Jeff Campbell (footballer) and being unfamiliar with you, I was looking to see if there was a pattern to your lack of civility to other editors. But I became curious about all your edits on this page, and became distracted ... to the point I actually forgot how I got there. And yet here you are not only being uncivil to me, but failing to WP:AGF. There does indeed to be a pattern. Can I suggest being civil to other editors? Either way - I'm not sure why you are deflecting from the issue at hand, and have switched to personal attacks; I can only assume that you are aware that your case is weak. Nfitz (talk) 06:57, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

PS, for the record, I only just noticed there's a discussion recently started at WP:AN that mentions that personal attack on Joseph2302. Nfitz (talk) 07:11, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

This is an article talk-page. If you want to send the article to AfD, be my guest (though it will obviously be kept). If you want to make posts entirely about me, I have a user talk-page and there is WP:DR, and you should use those venues instead of wasting the time and attention of other editors who might expect this page to be used for discussing content. —JBL (talk) 15:05, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

WP:AFD suggests that first try first raising your concerns on the article's talk page, with the main contributors, or an associated WikiProject .... I didn't mention you, and only answered the question about how I came to notice this page. This isn't about you; though I am concerned that there may be a pattern of a lack of civility in your editing - which someone else has since started a discussion about at AN (WP:AN#Football-related AFDs). Nfitz (talk) 17:07, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

I don't think this is the right place for this discussion. SquareInARoundHole (talk) 23:38, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

The guidelines say to discuss notability issues on the article's talk page, WP:BEFORE starting an AFD, User:SquareInARoundHole - where else do you think that such notability should be discussed before starting an AFD - such a discussion may avoid an unnecessary AFD. Nfitz (talk) 05:22, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

I was talking about your discussion about @Nfitz. SquareInARoundHole (talk) 17:51, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

I won't disagree with that! Sorry, I thought you were replying to me ... to many indents!. Nfitz (talk) 17:58, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

If there are reliable sources covering unionization efforts at other countries they should be added in the globally focused Starbucks unions and or Starbucks articles. If there are reliable sources covering such elections and they’re too numerous it certainly could make sense to create either a separate list for them or merge them. So far that is not the case. This is an issue about availability of primary/secondary sources. When there are 5,000 elections in the US we can debate the merit of listing every single one, but so far this is useful and informative. Wikipedia has no theoretical limits either, so let’s challenge ourselves to create new/more articles about historic coverage gaps instead of using them as evidence against creation of such articles. The majority of my labor editing is focused on a global focus. That doesn’t detract from the coverage of US unionizing. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 20:34, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

I agree with all of these points. SquareInARoundHole (talk) 17:52, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Graph

Is there any way to make it fit better? Right now on my screen it is sufficiently bulky to push the actual table down, creating an awkward gap between text and table.

Separately, here is a different presentation of related data (though not usable for wiki purposes unless someone puts it into something that more closely resembles an RS): https://twitter.com/snaidunl/status/1518283729738817540 --JBL (talk) 19:07, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Separately, would it be possible to include in the graph the information about how many have voted yes/no? I am imagining a stacked bar chart, but perhaps some other presentation would be clearer. (@SquareInARoundHole and Shushugah:) JBL (talk) 19:20, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

This is my attempt at a stacked bar graph of the certification results, which will be smaller anyhow, since they are fewer, and started later than the petitions. It would certainly be easier to keep track manually of this data, than the certification requests. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 20:52, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks! Your chart is not quite what I meant, but maybe it's a better way to present the data. Since your code is transparent, I was able to mock up what I was originally thinking of: cumulative, and showing both petitions and elections in a single chart. (Of course right now the data in the chart doesn't match the data in the table, since there are still perhaps 80 old petitions to catch up with.) --JBL (talk) 21:45, 25 April 2022 (UTC)