Talk:List of Terra Nova episodes

Number of episodes

There are officially 12 episodes of Terra Nova. The first episode was 2 hours. The final two episodes aired on the same date back to back but were separate episodes. Amazon.com, itunes, the Library of Congress lists them this way. Other articles on Wikipedia shows with double-length episodes list hour long episodes as one episode (i.e., Seinfeld). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.179.154.161 (talk) 23:28, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Fox, who knows more about their own show than the Futon Critic does, says that the pilot was 1 episode in 2 parts and that "Instinct" was episode 2. [1]. Someone else can fix this article or I can. Niteshift36 (talk) 03:11, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

You'd be amazed at how often networks will have inaccurate information about their own shows. It's really quite amazing. As for my opinion, two different production codes means two separate episodes, as opposed to Fringe, which also had a double-length pilot but had only a singular production code. Combining the episodes into one will create a godawful mess with having to list two production codes for one episode and also with the writing credits being as divided as they are. Leave as is. SchrutedIt08 (talk) 03:23, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

• Well, they list the first 2 as one episode in 2 parts. I actually noticed it the other night when my Comcast guide showed the episode on 10/3/11 was S1, E2. Really, I can't see how we can give a source like Futon Critic the nod over the company who actually decides this stuff (ie Fox). Niteshift36 (talk) 03:27, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't think Fox and The Futon Critic disagree here. The Futon Critic reproduces press releases and the Fox press release says "The "Genesis" two-hour series premiere episode of TERRA NOVA airsMonday, Sept. 26". "Episode", not "episodes" is used. It's not correct to assume that two production numbers means two episodes. Studios often assign different production codes to different parts and then, as they've done with this series, air the two parts as a single episode with one set of credits. --AussieLegend (talk) 04:49, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

So why does this list claim the episode "Instinct" is episode 3? Niteshift36 (talk) 05:02, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Mostly because of the production codes and the way the writing credits are distributed. It was clearly written as two separate entities, with Fury and Braga re-writing the first and then constructing the second after the original creators had departed. Also because of the way it is listed as two episodes on sites like Futon Critic, Zap2It, etc. With your changes the table would look like this:

No.	Title	Directed by	Written by	Original air date	Production code	U.S. viewers (million)
1	"Genesis"	Alex Graves	Story by: Kelly Marcel & Craig Silverstein (Part 1) Teleplay by: Craig Silverstein & Kelly Marcel and Brannon Braga & David Fury (Part 1) Brannon Braga & David Fury (Part 2)	September 26, 2011 (2011-09-26)	1ASW01/1ASW02	9.22
In 2149, policeman Jim Shannon is sentenced to six years in prison for assaulting another officer after Jim and his wife, Elisabeth, were discovered to have a third child in a society where families are restricted to two children. Two years into his sentence, Elisabeth, a doctor, is recruited to travel 85 million years back in time with the Tenth Pilgrimage to Terra Nova, a prehistoric colony that is attempting to reinvent the past for a better future, albeit with the necessity to co-exist with dinosaurs. With only teenagers Josh and Maddy, allowed to go with her, Elisabeth helps Jim escape prison so that he and their five-year-old daughter, Zoe, can accompany the family back in time. Once in Terra Nova, Jim meets Commander Nathaniel Taylor, who displeased by Jim's arrival, assigns him to the agriculture group. Meanwhile Josh meets a group of rebellious teenagers, including a girl named Skye, while Elizabeth starts treating patients. The enemy group called the Sixers is introduced. The Sixers were among the earlier colonists, but for reasons unknown, they oppose Terra Nova's existence, and broke away to establish a rival colony. When a captured Sixer escapes and attempts to assassinate Commander Taylor, Jim subdues the assailant, resulting in Taylor reassigning Jim to his security team. Skye and her friends persuade Josh to sneak away with them from the Terra Nova compound into the forest. At a waterfall, Skye shows Josh what looks like unusual mathematical equations carved into the rocks. As night falls, they prepare to return to the compound, only to discover Sixers have stolen their vehicle's power cells. A pack of Slashers (a common name for the fictional Acceraptors) attack, and the Terra Nova security team has to rescue the teens.

If that's how you want it, that's fine but I personally find that look really irritating and much prefer it the way it is now. SchrutedIt08 (talk) 05:24, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Futon Critic doesn't list it as two episodes. There's a single entry listing it as a single episode, just as the press release says. --AussieLegend (talk) 05:57, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

• Since it is the same episode, 2 parts, why not 1.1 and 1.2? Or even 1(1) and 1(2)? Doesn't that look a lot easier and less annoying? Niteshift36 (talk) 05:50, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Like this page? SchrutedIt08 (talk) 05:54, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

x(1), x(2) is a horrible method and it makes linking just that little more complex because people often add or remove spaces. x.1, x.2 is usually used for identifying seasons and episodes, ie 1.1 is season 1, episode 1, 2.14 is season 2 episode 14 etc. 1a, 1b is a lot simpler and not really subject to confusion. It's also used in a lot of episode list articles. --AussieLegend (talk) 06:03, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

• You act like this would have to happen on every episode. It's a one time thing. 1a/1b is fine with me. I'm in favor of simple but accurate is more important. Niteshift36 (talk) 06:07, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to go on the record as being a crotchety grump who is against this whole thing, but the 1a/1b thing is a good compromise. SchrutedIt08 (talk) 09:32, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

In my opinion naming episodes "a" and "b" is just silly; it has and will continue to cause confusion out there until someone with an ounce of common sense steps in and fixes the Episode List properly. The Season states there will be 13 episodes, mirrored by 13 different production codes. So how about we all join hands, get rid of this "a" and "b" rot and all just try to get along! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.148.220.34 (talk) 08:03, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

It looks to me that even though it debuted as a two-hour premiere, it has been structured so that the pilot can be edited into two individual episodes for later reruns and also for syndication, if the show lasts long enough. Each half basically stands alone, and there are even two different writers credited for each segment. I prefer keeping these separate, and listing them as "part a" and "part b" seems reasonable.PNW Raven (talk) 13:34, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

The fact that Fox ordered 13 episodes should be enough to prove the pilot is two episodes, given if you continue using this episode count, the finale will be episode 12, and not 13. Drovethrughosts (talk) 14:36, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

That is a good point. Many, many third party sources (including this interview with Kevin Reilly [2]) explicitly state that the first season will contain 13 episodes. The current formatting will not reflect that. Zap2It has "Genesis" listed as two separate episodes, and Futon Critic's updated list has the finale as episodes 12/13. SchrutedIt08 (talk) 22:18, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

• And maybe some day Fox will fix it. Until then, we have to go with what the best source says. Fox is the best source and they say the pilot was one episode. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:33, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

(ec)Agreed. Futoncritic and the network's press release specifically refer to the first airing as a single episode, not two episodes. To treat these as two episodes based on what other sources, even reliable sources, say is classic WP:SYNTH. --AussieLegend (talk) 02:36, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Other than being a network that broadcasts the show, exactly what is Fox's role? What gives them the authority to declare how many episodes there are?Black.jeff (talk) 00:39, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

• Fox is the main production company. Produce it and air it.....a fair amount of authority Niteshift36 (talk) 01:33, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

They are one of several production companies and are not the only one that airs it. Channel Ten in Australia also airs it, and it has episode 6 being the episode in which the murder occurred, which is listed here as episode 5. http://ten.com.au/video-player.htm?movideo_m=143591&movideo_p=45668 So, does that have any authority similar to Fox?Black.jeff (talk) 02:01, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

• Channel Ten AIRS it. Do they have anything to do with the production? Who does Ten buy it from? Fox. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:17, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

And what part of Fox's website says that instinct is episode 2? The part that airs it.Black.jeff (talk) 05:33, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

• Again, it's their show. They are the best source. The other networks buy it from them. Niteshift36 (talk) 19:02, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Again, is it the people that are making the show that are describing the episodes like that? No. It is the section of Fox that is responsible for airing the show, not making it, that are saying Instinct is episode 2. This should hold the same value as Channel Ten saying it was episode 3. If it was the people responsible for making the show saying it, then yes, it would be the best source, but it isn't, so it isn't.Black.jeff (talk) 04:31, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

When we create lists like this, we use information from the country in which the program originally aired. In the country in which the program originally aired, Genesis is one episode. We don't mix and match information from foreign markets as this would create a list that is virtually useless because of the variations between markets. If we were to use Channel Ten's episode list, we'd also have to use Australian air dates for consistency, but we just don't do that. --AussieLegend (talk) 04:39, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

And there are heaps of sources in the US that state the same thing, that instinct was episode 3. And the air date is meant to list the first air date, so you would only use Channel Ten's if it aired it first. Additionally, the only time the number of episodes change when going to a different country is when episodes are added or removed, which isn't the case here. And Australia is hardly a foreign market when the show is being filmed in Australia.122.106.52.228 (talk) 21:07, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

• Who cares where it is filmed? It is an American TV show. It is produced by Fox. It is their show. they sell it to other people. Period. Niteshift36 (talk) 21:40, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

The press release issued by Fox, which was the the first network to air the series, clearly states that Genesis was a single episode, as has been discussed above. "Instinct" was the next episode aired making it #2, not #3. It doesn't matter where the series is filmed, what is important here is where the series first aired. That was the US, so Australia is a foreign market. --AussieLegend (talk) 23:18, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

you know it's wrong. There are 13 episodes in the first season. The next one is the 11th - "Within", after that it's the two-hour finale which will be two episodes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.80.66.226 (talk) 06:53, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

• What I "know" and what the reliable sources say aren't always the same thing. Read the essay WP:TRUTH sometime. Truth isn't the standard on Wikipedia, verifiability is. Niteshift36 (talk) 14:42, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

The page is still contradicting itself. Saying there's 12 episodes, yet using a source clearly stating there's 13 episodes. There's a reason the last episode has a production code of TN-113 (press release) or 1ASW13 (actual production code), because it's the 13th episode produced. Production codes signify a single episode, which is why the first two episodes are labeled 1ASW01 and 1ASW02. It's also worth noting in the press release for "Occupation/Resistance", it states, "...in the all-new "Occupation/Resistance" episode of TERRA NOVA..." That was your reasoning for saying "Genesis" is one episode, because it had "episode" not "episodes" in its press release. So, are you going to now say that is one episode as well? I don't even watch this show, but I just want to point out all the logical reasons there are indeed 13 episodes. Thank you. Drovethrughosts (talk) 15:54, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

• Does it contradict itself? If I order 13 episodes, but show two of them together, as a single viewing, it doesn't really contradict. When the show premiered, there was no closing credits and the end of 1a or opening credits for 1b.....there was simply a single episode. Sure, probably in the future they will be shown as individual episodes. Sure, there is a good change Fox will eventually adjust the numbering. Until then, all this bitching, whining and crying about it what some network in New Zealand, Australia or the dark side of the moon says is fairly pointless. Niteshift36 (talk) 18:29, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

The change from 13 to 12 episodes is a recent one.[3] The problem we have is a common one, the episodes are produced by somebody who has no direct media contact while the station/network does. Genesis may well have been meant to be two episodes by the people who produced it, but the network decided to air it as one episode and the network's press releases state that, so that's what we have to follow. The difference with "Occupation/Resistance" is that there are two different names as well as two different production codes so we can treat these as two different episodes. If these episodes air and there are no more episodes, there might be a case for renumbering Genesis, although that would require new consensus. --AussieLegend (talk) 17:06, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

But, "Genesis" does have two production codes. In both press releases, they're referred to as a new "episode". So it's odd you're saying one in a single episode, yet the other are two. You guys have probably debated this to death, I'm simply just pointing out facts that most of the other people haven't. Drovethrughosts (talk) 19:59, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

(Have not been following this discussion at all, only saw that my numbering didn't corresponded with the one here anymore) The article as to is now makes no sense, source states 13 episodes, with the second half of he finale being 12? Genesis Part 1 and 2 are two episodes, production codes confirm it, press releases confirm it, … In any case, AussieLegend is to neutral and causing a self contradiction; one the one hand keeping 1a/1b with the finale being 12, one the other hand keeping the ref which states 13 episodes. In any case, I have found in the past that going by broadcast numbers/order etc. is a setup for problems and going by production, which is in pretty much every case I've seen the one on the DVD's, which are far more permanent than a (single) broadcast network. _Xeworlebi ^(talk) 19:27, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

This discussion has gone on too long and I really feel like a decision needs to be reached. The first season clearly has 13 episodes. All three of the general references used all claim that "Genesis" is two episodes and that the season contains 13 episodes. This includes The Futon Critic, which is used as a source in the series overview, which currently states 12 episodes for the first season, which is completely contrary to its own source. That is completely idiotic. People continue to claim that the best source is Fox itself, which states that the premiere was a single episode (although I can't find a source that specifically states that season one only has twelve episodes and there are numerous reliable sources (Zap2It, Futon Critic, TV Guide) that all list "Genesis" as two separate episodes) but you would be amazed at how unreliable networks can be about their own programming. HBO is infamous for issuing incorrect information on their website so there is precedent for not trusting network information. Numerous reliable sources, including all of the ones used on this page, clearly state the first season contains 13 episodes. I see no reason to keep it the way it is. SchrutedIt08 (talk) 08:10, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

As Fox is the official source that is the most reliable that we all need to go buy even though we know it is wrong, I have "fixed" the page to indicate the proper episode number, combining the "mislabelled" final episode "Occupation/Resistance" as episode 11, as it is according to Fox's website (http://www.fox.com/terranova/). If you argue against this and want this to be 2 episodes you are saying Fox's website is wrong and thus Genesis can be counted as 2 episodes. So, either change them both, or change neither, you cannot just change the finale, you must also change the premier. Doing otherwise is vandalism. So, decide, are you going to have it look ridiculous and have the finale as a single episode, or are you going to fix it and have Genesis as 2 episodes as it should be?Black.jeff (talk) 10:26, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

This is useful but weak! [4] see you: which is officially!!!! All the rest is spent just 90 minutes! There are two different episodes, both 1a/1b and 11A/11B! Great God! -- LAW CSI (talk) 22:39, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Tell that to the people above. I agree with you completely, Genesis is 2 episodes, not a double length episode, and the finale is 2 episodes, which should give a total of 13. However, some people on this page, such as Niteshift36 and AussieLegend refuse to admit this, saying that as it is produced by Fox, we need to go by what they say, which lists Genesis as 1 episode. AussieLegend went and became a hypocrite by saying that Occupation/Resistance should be 2 episodes, contrary to what Fox says. Those 2 are the only ones trying to have Genesis as a single episode, if they admit that they are separate episodes (or admit that the finale is 2 episodes, then it can be changed. I refuse to bow down to AussieLegend's hypocrisy and have the finale treated differently to the premier. As for NightShift36, I'm not sure if his opinion should even be valued, as he claimed the first episode was a pilot, which it wasn't, the entire first season is. I say we give them a week to decide how they want to have it, hopefully they will realise the error of their ways. If they haven't commented, I say change it. If they have realised the error of their ways, I say change it.Black.jeff (talk) 23:29, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

• Yeah, let's ignore what the network that made the show says and put more stock in the Futon Critic. Look, I've said it more than once: Fox will probably eventually adjust the count and eventually show the episode separately, completely with opening titles and closing credits. But until then, put away your WP:CRYSTAL ball and just accept that when they do change it, we will change it too. Unless you are going to argue that Zap2it is more reliable than Fox. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:17, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Lets clear up a few misconceptions. Networks dont MAKE shows, studios do. In this case that would be 20th Century Fox Television, which despite being part of Fox Entertainment Group is a seperate and distinct entity from Fox Broadcasting (who merely pay a licensing fee to air the show in the United States). The studio, who sells the show internationally, knows how many episodes they have made - 13! Hence why foreign broadcasters (such as Sky One in the UK [5]) are saying there are 13 episodes (something the WGA agrees with BTW). Pat (talk) 19:31, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

• Now you want to quibble about the different parts of Fox? Seriously? It is a Fox show. Period. move on. Niteshift36 (talk) 19:45, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

• You are aware that a statment like that is idiocy compeltely wrong(07:10, 2 January 2012 (UTC)), and would lead to things such as if windows makes any statement about any microsoft product (such as Office for Mac or a mouse), that should be the highest valued statement. On second thoughts, it is actually worse than that, last time I checked, Microsoft was still one company and acted as such. Fox is divided into separate companies.(07:10, 2 January 2012 (UTC)) The Fox website used has nothing to do with producing the show. They are effectively separate entities. The Show is produced by 20th Century Fox Television, not Fox Broadcasting Company. They are separate entities.Black.jeff (talk) 22:04, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

• Idiocy? Really? You want to go the name calling route? Oh wait, this is where you will try some weaseling about how you didn't actually say I was an idiot but that the statement was idiotic. Maybe you'll actually man up and not try to weasel out of the incredibly obvious, but I predict some excuse-making. Niteshift36 (talk) 19:01, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Nope, not wanting to go the name calling route, and I am not going the name calling route. I am going the realistic route. The statement is idiocy, that does not indicate that you are an idiot. Perhaps you think we are idiots and will believe your idiotic statement. What is there to weasel out of?Black.jeff (talk) 20:54, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Calling another editor's comments "idiocy" can be interpreted as calling them an idiot. At best it's uncivil; at worst it's a personal attack. I suggest you redact the comment and rewrite it. --AussieLegend (talk) 21:27, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

What isn't more reliable than Fox? :-P (Sorry, my Liberal attitude couldn't hold back...) Melicans (talk, contributions) 07:33, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

• The conservative in me is restraining itself from pointing out the irony of you following a post about how Fox is different entities, while trying to joke that FNC and Fox are interchangeable. Niteshift36 (talk) 19:45, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

If you should go after that would then be all double episode, a 90-minute episode! This is refuse! -- LAW CSI (talk) 23:45, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

If you are going to change it, change the text so it makes sense. Do not have it saying that the consensus for Genesis is 1a and 1b. I will go and fix that now. Also, it doesn't make sense to break apart an episode, yet still try and claim it is 1 episode. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Black.jeff (talk • contribs) 01:17, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Your arbitrary changes have been reverted. Go to the Official Terra Nova website and try to watch last nights episode.......it is #11. The one before it? 10. Before that? 9. Stop acting like Zap2it trumps the actual show site. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:42, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

• Why only go to the Fox Broadcasting Company's official website? Why not try going to other official websites? Fox Broadcasting Company is only the company responsible for broadcasting it in the US. Why not go to Channel Ten or Sky? They have it running as if Genesis was 2 episodes. Perhaps you should realise that the way the Fox Broadcasting Company's website works, the numbering used may simply be an artifact of that (i.e. not manually entered it, but automatically generated when the episode(s) airs. Then you also have multiple sources saying it will have 13 episodes, yet only have 11 here. Additionally, why break apart the episodes? Why not just group them together as episode 1 and episode 11? It makes no sense to break them apart, unless they are separate episodes.Black.jeff (talk) 22:04, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

• Because it is a Fox show, developed for Fox, broadcast first by Fox and in the home country of the production company. (now this is where you start whining about where they filmed it). Niteshift36 (talk) 19:07, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

• Correction, it is a 20th Century Fox Television show, developed for numerous people to air, not just Fox broadcasting company, originally aired by Fox broadcasting company, in the country that 20th Century Fox Television is in, and broadcast by numerous different companies worldwide shortly after, unlike other shows, where an entire season airs, then some time later, it airs elsewhere. It is not Fox Broadcasting Comapnay's show, it is 20th Century Fox Television's show. Fox Broadcasting Company is just as reliable (and no more) than any other network that aired the show, such as Channel Ten and Sky. So your argument is basically (I wont bother putting the correct word back in, until the dispute has been resolbed, as you will just vandalise the page again, however I will not allow you to change what I say to make me look like an idiot) because it is a US production company, we will use US sources, even those that do not own the show, and ignore other sources, that are just as reliable from other countries (i.e. other nationalities), such as Channel Ten and Sky.Black.jeff (talk) 20:54, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

• Nightshift36, stop editing my posts. If you want to make a comment about my choice of words describing the content of your comment, then do so, do not simply revert the edit. Additionally, if you are going to try remove the word, do not simply revert the entire edit, revert only the relevant part. I have also explained why it is the correct word, numerous times, including here, but you simply go and delete it, so you have no justification to remove that word. You have no right to edit my comments like that. What you are doing constitutes vandalism. So stop destroying my comments and vandalising this talk page.Black.jeff (talk) 19:18, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

• Jeff, stop implying that I'm a racist. I'm sorry you lack the common sense to understand what racism is and have to try to find an obscure definition to try to justify it, even after you admitted it wasn't actually the correct word. Your implication is a vile, disgusting insult that I will not tolerate. Further, your uneducated misuse of the term cheapens the real meaning of it. BLP applies to all pages on Wikipedia and all living persons, including me. I'll tolerate incivility or insults and even give you some back, but when you start telling me my actions are based on racism, you are clalling me a racist. That is libelous and a violation of BLP. The fact that you will continue to try to justify using a word you've already admitted is not the correct one and that is grossly insulting, even after being given the correct phrase, shows a complete lack of good faith on your part. Niteshift36 (talk) 21:05, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

• Nite, I am not implying that you are a racist, merely stating that the argument is, which you have allowed me to keep the explanation of why. So you are allowing me to explain why the comment is racist, but not actually say it is racism. This means it BLP shouldn't apply, nor should PA, as there is no functional difference between calling someone something, and describing them as it (i.e. calling someone an asian person a racist, and saying that the same person hates white people) yet you don't think me describing the argument as racism constitutes calling you a racist, yet somehow labelling the comment as racism magically means I am calling you a racist.Additionally, are you perfectly fine with someone implying you are culturally biased, or do you not think the exact same comment with a single term changes, no longer constitutes an implication that you are that term. I admitted it was the incorrect term when I was uneducated about it, however when you suggested a word I know is wrong, I went and looked up the correct definition (i.e. educated myself), which actually included what I was referring to as racism. My correct, educated use of the word in no way cheapens the real meaning of it, unless you are saying that the UN has cheapened the meaning of the word racism. Would you say that calling a comment such as "All [insert nationality here] are useless, unreliable scum" racism, will cheapen the meaning of racism?

Ever heard that people make mistakes, like admitting something is wrong, when it is actually right? Ever heard of people then realising their mistake and correcting it, and then justifying the correction? I have not acted like I never made that mistake, I just see no reason to continually say I made that mistake, especially when I have corrected it. Have I ever denied I made that mistake? I am using the correct phrase, the phrase you gave me is wrong, you even admitted that on my talk page: 'a more appropriate term for what you are (so far unsuccessfully) trying to describe would be "cultural bias". You'd be wrong, but at least it would be an appropriate term.'(http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Black.jeff&diff=prev&oldid=468825795). Unless I misunderstood the meaning of that, and what you were trying to say is that what I am describing is not racism, nor is it cultural bias, yet someone cultural bias is an appropriate term, which doesn't really make sense to me. If calling it cultural bias is wrong, how would that be an appropriate term, yet racism isn't? Wouldn't it be no different to me calling it an orange? What I think shows a complete lack of civility and good faith is someone not bothering with people's justifications and explanations and instead basically saying "No, this is how it is". Seriously? You want to say that official documents of the United Nations are poorly written? Finally stop saying that I am lacking common sense/are uneducated and so on, so I don't know what racism is (I have common sense, although it isn't too common, and I am educated, including knowing what racism is, and regardless, that constitutes a personal attack) and the variety of other personal attacks you have directed towards me.Black.jeff (talk) 07:10, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

• And for those tuning in late....Jeff actually stated "I know that technically it isn't racism...." [6]. Then, after digging up some poorly written definition from a UN project, he shifted his claim, acting like he never admitted it wasn't correct. Niteshift36 (talk) 21:24, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

I suggest you try reading what I actually wrote, rather than making unfounded allegations based on you misreading what is written. I did NOT say "Occupation/Resistance should be 2 episodes" I said, well before the finale aired, that because Occupation and Resistance had two different names while Genesis had one we could treat them as two episodes. The Fox press release, which is reproduced here does not say they are one episode, and the futon critic schedule shows that the episodes are being aired separately in reruns.[7] It does not show Genesis as two episodes and the Fox press release clearly identifies Genesis as an "episode", not "episodes".[8] In reruns on September 29 and October 1, Genesis was aired as a single episode. You need to try using some common sense here; When the network says something is an "episode", when it has the same name for both parts and when it is aired as a single episode with one set of credits, originally and in reruns, the likelihood that it is meant to be a single episode is extremely high. On the other hand, when the network avoids saying it's a single episode, when it has a different name for each part and when it's aired in reruns as separate episodes, then it's likely that it is meant to be two separate episodes. However, for the purposes of this list, since both Genesis and Occupation/Resistance were aired as 2-hour episodes, something that is reflected by Fox's own website,[9][10] We should treat them as such. Note that Fox numbers the episodes 1-11, not 1-13 which is consistent with the numbering currently used here. Again, however, claiming that there is consensus for this, as you did here, when no such consensus actually existed at the time you made that edit, is inappropriate, as is making statements such as "I'm not sure if his opinion should even be valued", which is perilously close to being a personal attack and is most decidedly uncivil. Please, comment on content, not on contributors. --AussieLegend (talk) 11:55, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

I suggest reading what I had copied over and modified slightly. What consensus did I claim? That Genesis is to be treated as 1 episode (yet that "consensus" still exists in the current version of the page, so it clearly can't be that one you are talking about, which isn't even a consensus yet). A common definition for finale is "the last episode of a single season of a television show." The finale is meant to be the final episode, not the final episode, and the one before it. Thus, saying finale should be equivalent to saying last episode (but more fancy). Genesis does have 2 separate names, Genesis (part 1) and Genesis (part 2). The fact that most of it is the same is irrelevant, they are distinct names (with distinct credits) just like Occupation and Resistance. They also have distinct production codes. Has Genesis had any re-runs after the initial 3 showings? Not that I know of.

What you copied included "following this precedent", but there was no precedent to follow since a different set of circumstances apply to the episodes.You also included "Changes against consensus will be treated as vandalism and reverted", which implies that there is consensus for your changes, when there was none. Both parts of Genesis are called "Genesis" - they have the same name, not two different names. The parts didn't have separate credits, there was only a single set of credits and it doesn't matter that there haven't been any re-runs after the first two re-runs. In both re-runs it was a single episode that was broadcast, unlike "Occupation" and "Resistance". --AussieLegend (talk) 06:08, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

As for Fox, firstly, who really cares what Fox Broadcasting Company does? They do not own the show, they do not make the show. They just broadcast it. Secondly, it can also simply be an artifact of the software used that numbers them as suchBlack.jeff (talk) 22:04, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

• "They just broadcast it"....... even if accepted as true, the fact that they pay for it and air it is still more substantial than Zap2it just writing about it? Niteshift36 (talk) 02:43, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

• And when have I used Zap2it? I never did, I used other networks, that pay for it and air it, and Futon Critic, which has the Fox press releases.

I believe the episode numbering as it stands (1a, 1b, 11a, 11b) is confusing as at the top of the show's page it states 13 episodes were produced/order/whatever, yet the sidebar and the episode page only lists 11 episodes. This isn't brain surgery. There's 13 episodes, when in syndication they will not air a 2 hour episode and there are unique production codes for each hour of the program. Stop relying on what Fox's PR says. It's common for advertisements to talk about a 2 hour premiere or 2 hour finale. That does not make 1 episode, but 2 separate parts airing together. -- (198.151.13.15 (talk) 22:51, 21 December 2011 (UTC))

• It's not about "advertising". It's how they are placed and referenced on the show site. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:43, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your complete 100% correct logic, that some of others don't get. Labeling them 1a, 1b, 11a, and 11b is a bit ridiculous; where is this numbering system seen anywhere else, and since you're relying on Fox's PR so much, these episodes are not referred to as "episode 1a" and "episode 1b." You can't mishmash things to your liking. The episode list already has 13 individual entries, so it's not much of a stretch to correctly label as so. I just think some people are being a bit stubborn. Fox ordered 13 episodes, each episode has a singular production code, what more do you need? Episodes live beyond how they were originally aired. For comparison, 24, another Fox series, had several "2-hour episodes/premieres", but do you think anyone would argue against the fact there's 24 episodes in each season. No, because it's not correct. They'll be repeating some episodes as "two-hour episodes" later, with the press release labeling them as an "episode". So does that now become episode 7a and 7b or something? Come on now. There's not much of a consensus really, and it actually seems more people are on the side of they're being 13 episodes. Drovethrughosts (talk) 23:53, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Firstly (and least importantly), wouldn't it be 6a and 6b? However, this really puts a nail in their coffin. They now need to rationalise this and try and explain how they can have such a contradictory episode list, or decide that Fox Broadcasting Company is not a reliable source as it is self-contradictory. I see no way in which they can justify their stance after this press release combines another 2 sets of episodes into single episodes. I think they are just using episode to refer to how it is aired, i.e. if they are aired together they will call it an episode. I think the numbering on their site is just how their software displays it. The episodes are already broken into 2 episodes, they just aren't numbered properly.Black.jeff (talk) 02:25, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

This list isn't about how episodes will air in syndication, it's a list of episodes as they've aired to date. Speculation about how episodes will air in syndication is WP:CRYSTAL. --AussieLegend (talk) 06:28, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

So using a Fox Broadcasting Company press release is WP:CRYSTAL? Once the episode has aired as that, then can we claim that what is currently referred to as 6 and 7 are really 1 episode, and what is referred to as 8 and 9 are really one, or alternatively break apart the others?Black.jeff (talk) 11:08, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

The press release you're talking about has absolutely nothing to do with syndication. We don't change episode numbering to comply with how episodes air in the future. This list is essentially a list of how episodes aired originally. That's why the field is "|OriginalAirDate=" and not just "|AirDate=". --AussieLegend (talk) 13:28, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

However it does indicate that Fox Broadcasting Company's use of the word "episode" is different to that in the article. They are using episode to refer to how things are aired, the website has the next "episode" being "Vs/Now You See Me", with that being a single episode, rather than 2 episodes. That is the key point that I am making. Additionally, we don't need to talk about how episodes will air in syndication, they have already aired in syndication. So how is talking about the past WP:Crystal?Black.jeff (talk) 20:54, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

• No, they aren't already broken into two episodes. Go look at the site,.......click one episode and it shows BOTH hours, uninterrupted. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:43, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

• Better idea, go look at the wikipedia page, which has it broken into 2 episodes, it is just rather than numbering them 1 and 2 and 12 and 13, it numbers them 1a, 1b and 11a, 11b. If they really are meant to be a single episode, why break apart it's entry into 2 separate episodes with different numbers? It really makes no sense. The above way in the talk page, while looking ridiculous, is better if you want it as 1 episode.Black.jeff (talk) 11:08, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

• When did Wikipedia become a reliable source? Never. So save the idiocy about "go look at the wikipedia page" for someone else. Consensus (if there was even any achieved) doesn't transfer from one article to another. Niteshift36 (talk) 19:07, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

I am talking about the Wikipedia page. I am not using it as a source. Did you actually bother reading what I said? The Wikipedia page that has a list of Terra Nova episodes has 13 episodes in the list. What is allegedly episode 1 (i.e. genesis) is broken apart into 2 entries (i.e. 2 episodes) and lists them as episode 1a and 1b. If these are really just one episode, why have them broken apart and as 2 separate episodes? If we are going to break them apart as 2 separate episodes, why not number them properly, and have it as 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13? And why talk about consensus being transferred? It is completely irrelevant.Black.jeff (talk) 20:54, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

it was fox idea to combine ep 1/2 together and 12/13 and we do not look at that so we just label them 1a 1b 11a 11b like crazy people who forgot the fact fox ordered 13 ep not 11 not 12 <13> eps so just get it right --Wjmdem (talk) 21:34, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

this dosen't make sense, 13 is a common amount of episodes to be orderd, not eleven! also, after the first part of both these two part episodes, they aired credits, clearly making them two different episodes, just two part and aired back to back! Frogkermit (talk) 11:33, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

When the episodes first aired, they aired as double length episodes, with one set of credits aired after the second part. Your assertion that "after the first part of both these two part episodes, they aired credits" is incorrect. --AussieLegend (talk) 11:53, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

This is quite ridiculous. FOX habitually merges episodes any time they show consecutive new episodes of any show. That just means they asked the production company to supply them with the two episodes texted for a single broadcast. Its really easy when it is a fellow NewsCorp subsidiary making the show but it also happened when Warner Bros supplied them with a merged Alcatraz premiere. Of course they will call it a 'special' (single) episode because that is the spin. Two years ago FOX took four episodes of Human Target and called them two special episodes even though on the dark side of the moon in Canada they were shown as four separate episodes. FOX is promoting the episodes of Bones on in four days as a single episode though they have nothing specifically tying them together other than night of broadcast. FOX is calling the series finale of Fringe a two-hour special episode (which makes for 99 total) and in the very same press release promotes it as hitting the 100 episode threshold. It is the spin. If you can't recognise the spin in reliable sources then you really shouldn't be here.
https://www.foxfast.com/FoxFast/aspxfiles/TitleDetailsHome.aspx?TitleId=B172162B-F49D-48AD-9863-D8CAE05896E4&Type=SN&TtlSrchMode=&TtlSrchTxt=
http://www.foxinflight.com/tv/82/
The website that offers info on FOX productions says 13. The website that lists movies and series available for air travel viewings says 13. Would you really say the sites which cater to sales of the shows are less reliable than the sites which cater to broadcast viewers? This is the only episode list i can think of which here on WP is written up like this.
As for the question, why break them apart, well they are individual episodes. That is why you have "part 1" and "part 2" credits. If it were one episode there wouldn't be parts (aka how it would have appeared had FOX not shown them merged). The director is the same but the writers are different. With shows filmed in the US and Canada it is fairly easy for a director to do 3 or 5 episodes scattered throughout a 22 episode season but when one has to travel to Australia it just makes sense to do at least 2 episodes before going back home to Malibu.
Lastly, there isn't a pilot for Terra Nova; if there were its production code would 1ASW79. When 20th Century Fox Television has a show go straight to series its production code for episode 1 is "1(Letter)(Letter)(Letter)01". That also is used if the pilot is totally rejected but the series isn't, such as with Dollhouse. delirious & lost ☯ ^~hugs~ 22:48, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

No second episode

As in sports, when two contestants share the first place or ranking, the next place is not second, but third. I do not care if the first two parts are one episode or two episodes, but the one after them should be episode 3. This is, of course, my personal opinion, but it would clear out the numbering problem of later episodes.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.22.77.59 (talk • contribs) 18:59, 2 November 2011‎ (UTC)

This isn't a race and we don't leave numbers out. Based on reliable sources, the number of episode two is correct so there's no reason to leave "2" out. --AussieLegend (talk) 03:56, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

13 episodes

no point in this fox order 13 ep it written in the books look for your self and renumber it or i will remake the whole page and delete this one i will give this a year from today and hopefully i will not have to --Wjmdem (talk) 03:42, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

As you can see at the official homepage, under the episode recaps section, episode 2 is named as being Instinct and episode 11 is named as being Occupation/Resistance counting the 2 parts as 1 episode. According to this, there is no 12th or 13th episode. This fits with the current status of the episode page. G.Light (talk) 01:52, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

this show airs world wide so fox is not right they air them wrong nice try Episode 11: Within nationwide while fox does other please notice this show is still airing in diff places so the joke is on this Article --Wjmdem (talk) 03:04, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

This show is really good, there is only one litte problem.

That wikipedia could change the info a bit more often and the fact that is completly wrong. It's 13 episodes and there is 2 1 and a half hour episodes. correct me if i am wrong but really am i ?. I think it's good that some networks do 1 and a half hour episodes of the pilot, so we understand more of the show and the last episode to. I will correct this page!, to the least details. Lucky13Fepplan (talk) 00:40, 25 February 2012 (GMT+1)

all the ref say 13 ep not 11 wake up anddo it right and keep it that way want prove click on

and there alot more more then foxs 11 this is wikipedia not foxipedia so unless you got something that is not fox related yours do not count --Wjmdem (talk) 23:40, 1 March 2012 (UTC))

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Splitting of episode "1" and "11"

I know this was discussed in part before, but I would like to have another discussion on splitting apart of the premier and the finale. If it is really just one episode, then why split it? Additionally, how do you know where one will end, and the other starts? I know one of them has been re-shown as 2 separate episodes, but that should not effect the article, which is now just talking about how they originally aired. They did not air as 1a followed by 1b, and 11a followed by 11b, but as 1 and 11. So why should they not be given a single entry in the table, just like they have a single entry on Fox Broadcasting Company's website? Black.jeff (talk) 23:03, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I would have to agree. AussieLegend even told me that "if an episode aired as one continuous episode with one set of credits, it should be labeled as 1 episode." Episode 1 is listed as just titled "Genesis" while on the FOX website is titled "Occupation/Resistance." They shouldn't be labels 1a, 1b, but just episode 1 & episode 11. - Alec2011 (talk) 21:42, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

13 Episodes

The series obviously has 13 episodes and not 11. The conventinal number of episodes for a season order is 13, then 22 then 24. You jus't don't get season orders for 11 episodes. 13 episodes were produced, that's why there are 13 different production codes. Just because the season premiere and finale were aired back to back, it does not mean that they count as on episode. It it counted and one episodes, why would it be genisis (part 1) and (Part 2)? It would just be Genesis. And why would the season finalle be called Occupation/Resistance? It would only have one name if it as one episode. But seen as they both have two names, it means they are seperate episodes. If it were a list of Terra Nova stories, then there would be 11 stories. Just because 2 episodes comprise a 2-part story, it does not make them the same episode! There are 13 episodes, and not 11. What network in their right mind would order 11 episodes of a season? They would order 13, meaning their is 13 episodes. Frogkermit (talk) 18:37, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

There's a hint in {{Episode list}} as to how we handle numbering. The hint is a parameter called OriginalAirDate. Just like that parameter, we handle episode numbering based on how episodes originally aired, which was as 11 episodes, not 13. This was thrashed out in a discussion above. --AussieLegend (✉) 22:45, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

which was wrong lol looks like after a year it will be listed as 13....if you still think you are right go around reedit other articles this is not the first time 2 episodes aired as one and are listed as 2--Wjmdem (talk) 23:10, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

RfC notification

A discussion at Talk:Terra Nova (TV series)#13 Episodes that was never publicised here resulted in reorganisation of this list. This is now the subject of an RfC that is now in progress at Talk:Terra Nova (TV series)#RfC: Should this article and the episode list article comply with MOS:TV. --AussieLegend (✉) 07:46, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Plot length

The plot length for the finale episode(s) is too long, and poorly written. I haven't read the rest of the episodes, as there is not a discussion on them, but if they were like the finale then they probably need some copy editing. As far as length goes, WP:MOSTV indicates 100-200 words, unless complex and this show is not complex...I watched it when it was one. The plots for the finale are at least 272 words each. Example of writing clean up: As Josh is restrained and beaten until bleeding from every inch of his body and severely disoriented, with Lucas planning to kill Josh, Jim (upon being tipped off by Skye) arrives on the scene to protect his son, and despite being held back, he saves Josh's life. - Not only is it a run-on sentence, but it goes into unnecessary detail about the beating, and uses unverifiable claims and subjective observations ("every inch of his body and severely disoriented"). It needs some copy-editing.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 13:01, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

• Agreed. Some of these are far too detailed. Niteshift36 (talk) 16:21, 28 May 2013 (UTC)