Talk:List of best-selling computer and video games/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Stuff

http://forum.pcvsconsole.com/viewthread.php?tid=18010 This list a lot of information.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPD_Group The NPD_Group monitors all of this. There is a link to their webpage, if anyone wants to roam about there.

Formatting

I was wondering what people would think of putting this data in a table format. Being this is a site for info it would be really nice to be able to cut and paste the info presented on this page into a spread sheet for analysis. As it is a lot has to be hand edited to get it into a useful format. What do you think?

Basically at a minumum something like

Top PC sellers by genre

in milllons	title
16	The Sims
11	Myst
10	StarCraft

Even more, I'd really like to see some more info attached like (Squeal, License, Sports, Original)

It would be very very useful for people trying to use this data for analysis and research and isn't that what an encyclopedia is usually about? Maybe it putting the data inside the wiki is bad a link to an XML or CSV file or something. What do you think?

Inconsistant

The figures for Half-Life 2 and The Sims are inconsistant with the pages for Half-Life 2 and Computer and video games that have been considered the greatest ever, respectively. --Slavik81 23:09, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

   Also, There are two Ace Combat 5's in the playstation 2 section, both with different sales.

(Comented by Aruã Metello - reverendo_osso@hotmail.com)

• sorry my bad english, i just want to put a useful warning.

i doenst have the correct and verified data so i wont say all places i think the list has missed, but seriouly the list apear to be full of flaws... the most impressive on my opinion was the Half Life for dreamcast... the game has NOT EVEN been released, and it says it sold more than a milion! that is surelly a "random" or misplaced information. (maybe it refers to the pc version, but even this way its wrong)

The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

The 1.7 million figure is the number of copies shipped, not sold. Also there is no breakdown between PC and Xbox 360 or standard and collector's editions. It's likely that no single SKU has sold in excess of a million copies to date. Radjago 02:55, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Halo: Combat Evolved

The 5 million figure most likely includes PC sales, so can anyone fill in the information for the console sales only?

The Halo 2 figure is 7 million in one section and then 12 in another. ???Vegasjon 23:41, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

• That 12 figure combines the number of H:CE units and H2 into one. RedZ71.145.208.158 21:51, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Dead or Alive 3

Dead or Alive 3 (Xbox) HAS sold more than one million copies (I found the link on gamespot.com). I added this, but someone removed it. I don't know how many copies it has sold as of NOW, but I know it has sold more than one million copies.

Bundled games

Some of the figures listed include copies bundled with the game's platform. I know the original Super Mario Bros. and Tetris happen to be two of them, but I don't know them all. This is important to note considering that Solitaire has probably been bundled with a few hundred million copies of Windows... ;-) --Mrwojo 01:54, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Sure, so please help out and try to locate some more accurate stats!  :-) --Quasipalm 18:52, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Im going to add a top bundled games list seperate from unbundled. If you find any sales like Solitaire mentioned just add them in there. Taladar

Reformat

2005/4/12

The original way I had this data listed is a bit problematic. The issue is, the reader can't tell how current the data actually is. So, here's what I intend to do:

• Break out the list by year
• List [as-of] data for most statistics

I reformated everything so its in correct time order and split consoles and handhelds for easy use. I hope everybody finds the new table of contents more useful. Most of the game sales have been updated to worldwide so try to find more worldwide sales as they are the most useful. Taladar

Genre listing

There should be a list of games that are best sellers in each genre.

Added in the genre listings. GTA/Sandbox is currently becoming its own genre so I put it in until theres a formal name that catches on. Taladar

--Grand Theft Auto is a game, not a genre. Call it sandbox if you wish, but there are games more deserving of a genre than GTA. (it's prudent to remember that it's 'sandbox' style play only really arrived with GTA3)~Slavik81

References

This page is in bad need of references. Not only are they lacking, but the numbers on this page contradict those in several other articles. I will remove all unsourced entries within a few days unless I can find credible references for them myself. Fredrik | talk 21:44, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

The best source is NPD, but even its data is imperfect, and it only covers North America. If we pull things that are unsourced we could lose most of the list, which as-is has some value. Maybe add asterisks or other markers to reflect the source (or lack thereof) for each entry, but allow the entry to stay for a while so more sources can be found to confirm or deny? Coll7 22:59, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Further to the above, most of the lists don't indicate whether they represent worldwide sales, or sales for some specific territory (North America, or even just United States).

The NPD group seems to be very stingy with their data. (I don't normally say nice things about the MPAA, but at least they share their box-office data with the public -- alas the video game industry doesn't seem to have any such group.) I wonder if there is anyone who can verify the information on this page with what the NPD has collected? I believe we can move such data here if we can get our hands on it. (From Copyright: "Compilations of facts or data may also be copyrighted, but such a copyright is thin; it only applies to the particular selection and arrangement of the facts, not to the particular facts themselves." -- in other words, if we can find such facts, we can rework them for Wikipedia and not violate Copyright.) --Quasipalm 14:24, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

The magic box website already given at the bottom has a USA list which was pretty much just pasted in (thus the USA based figures). It also has a top sellers list for Japan only. I will take the figures off each page and update the lists for worldwide sales and add the references. Taladar

I need some assistance with certain games. Based upon the overall game franchise sales I know that many single game sales numbers are very much off but I cannot find correct sales per game. This includes the entire pokemon franchise (150 million total), Crash Bandicoot 2 should be 5-6 million but I cannot find a source, the whole tomb raider series should be in the several millions (30 million total), the other harry potters might be much higher, Gamecube and Xbox are both almost positively missing quite a few million sellers. If anyone can find links to the appropriate sales figures these are needed for sure. Also I believe some of the Blizzard PC games may be somewhat off. Taladar 00:22, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Pokemon

I know for a fact that due to overall sales of the pokemon franchise, the numbers for each individual game is entirely too low. If anyone could round up some more accurate figures if possible. Taladar 22:21, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Top 20 list

Just for reference, the top 20 list does not include any bundled sales games as they are unfairly adjusted to be higher than usual and usually come discounted or free. Theres a top bundled sellers list right above the top 20 feel free to add bundled games in there. Taladar 15:22, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Most of your bundled list were never bundled at all, let alone in a position to gain any benefit from the console it was bundled with. Of the list, 2 games were actual launch bundles. The rest used the momentum of the top selling game to carry the system sales. Unfairly adjusted is quite the wrong way to look at that. Iconoclysm 3/2/2006

PC and Console

Keeping the two seperate for a few reasons. They arent in direct competition with each other. PC list is highly incomplete and kindy shaky to use still. User base is massive and spans many many more years. Seperated, they provide easy to use and compare information.

Diablo II

Currently listed twice in the PC section, with one stating 6 millon copies and the other stating 3 millon -- Squilibob 10:13, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry that was my fault. Still searching for a link of 6 million sales. Some people stick in funny numbers that turn out not true. Taladar 10:16, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

The Oregon Trail

It's not on the list, but it was a game that many many people had, you have to figure that it sold over a million copies, but i can't find any statistics for it, so someone might like to check that out

Starcraft

It sold 9 million as a series not as a single game. Broodwars was just an expansion pack. The game was released all the way back in 1998. I promise you its not still getting millions of sales in copies. If you look in this link http://www.starcraftghost.com/ghost/faq.shtml and this link http://www.blizzard.com/press/051805-e3ghost.shtml it clearly states that 9 million sales is the total of the whole series (Starcraft and Broodwars combined). http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-35809.html was the only place I could find that listed the seperately but theres no way the sales stand at 9 million for the base product. Taladar

Okay I guess people are missing the clear explaination.

"Since its debut in 1998, the #1-selling StarCraft series* has won industry acclaim and has shattered sales records worldwide with over nine million copies sold**. Blizzard continued the series with the critically acclaimed StarCraft: Brood War , which won multiple "Expansion Pack of the Year" awards and is still considered by many critics to be one of the best add-on products to date."

As you can see for yourself Starcraft did not sell 9 million copies. You cannot add expansions plus the base unit any more than you can say mario sold 150 million copies because its entire franchise did. Taladar 10:07, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

It's best to keep expansion packs separately, otherwise all the blizzard games will have much higher figures. - Squilibob 13:56, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

This is already confusing with the list. On highest selling games based on genre Starcraft is 9 mil. Whereas the big list it's got 6

Taladar, you are completely underestimating the worldwide sales of Starcraft. Where did you come up with the 6 million figure anyway, that forum? I think we can come close to 4 million in the country of Korea alone. I find it very hard to believe that Age Of Empires II outsold Starcraft...to say the least. ~ Iconoclysm

Everything and Nothing

This is very clearly a website outside the valid sources. Its all blogs and message boards and nonsense. They dont source anybody and have many numbers off from what developers said. http://everythingandnothing.org.uk/ Blog sites are not useable as sources. Its outlined in the Wiki rules. Taladar

You cannot use websites anyone can post unfounded information as news. These numbers are backing by nothing at all. These numbers directly contradict statements from Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft and developers. Theres no reason to put all this false information in. Just because they got a few numbers correct doesnt mean they all are. Taladar 10:03, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Once again, a dating/blog site is not at all reliable for video game statistics. Continue vandalizing this site and I will have to report you 64.135.219.231. Clearly the are providing false information. Halo did not sell 50 million. Mario did not sell 1 trillion. GTA did not sell 20 million each. Many other numbers are wrong vs what NPD, game creators, and the video game console owners said. http://www.everythingandnothing.org.uk/vg/ If you want to participate and update numbers thats great but try to use more reliable information.

The website may well have a number of blog and message board features, but the videogame section is maintained seperately and is 100% reliable for its figures. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.232.241.102 (talk • contribs) .

I don't trust the PSP numbers, they state PSP sold 5m units in Europe, but do not give sources. The japanese numbers are quite accurate, though, with some rounding errors. -- ReyBrujo 01:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I will be removing Everything and Nothing, as these figures provided by the owner (ioi) are estimates. - A Link to the Past (talk) 00:03, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Validity

I don't think it is fair for the FinalFantasy's to be compared with the huge amount of Mario and Pokemon games out there. I think it skews the results since many other games don't have countless variations. This is what happens when you make a list by sales.

If anyone is using the franchise information Im sure they are taking into account the fact theres different numbers of games available. This doesnt make the information invalid you just have to take it in context. Taladar 01:32, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Brain Training

It seems someone deleted my Brain Traning DS entry yesterday. Just to clarify, Brain Training is only available in Japan, and that I found the total for Brain Training as of Sept. 2005 by adding the totals of both the adult and children's versions. The numbers are based off of the findings of the Japanese tracking company Media Create, so they should be fairly accurate.

Nintendo DS million sellers.

According to the link provided (Gaming-Age Forums), Brain Training has broken 1,000,000 on its own, Gentle Brain Training has broken 1,000,000 on its own. Tamogatchi and Pokémon Mysterious Dungeon are at nearly 800,000 and nearly 600,000, respectively, so watch those two titles. - A Link to the Past (talk) 21:38, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

To explain for my lack of sources, I cannot recall where, but Nintendo has stated that Nintendogs is at about 1.5 million in the states, 1.6 million in Europe and 1 million in Japan. As for Mario Kart DS, that is about 500,000 in Europe, 1 million in North America and 800,000 in Japan. Brain Training's about 1.3 million in Japan, and Gentle Brain Training will likely break 1 million in the next Media Create. Expect to see a million seller from Tamagotchi, Pokémon Mysterious Dungeon and Brain Training 2 soon. - A Link to the Past (talk) 06:50, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

bundled at launch?

is the bundled list for bundles sold at launch or at any time (say for one holiday season) during the life of the console? And for any region (japan, north america, europe, south america, etc) or just north america?

couple of things jumped out at me...mario 64 I dont think was bundled

sonic 1 I'm sure was bundled with the genesis/mega drive

and crash was with the ps1.

Stop breaking up bundled games - in many cases, the games were bundled later to increase sales of the system. In fact, most of the games listed as bundled NEVER were bundled at all.

psp

add details for psp? or maybe subscribers to online things such as hotmail or online (browser based) mmorpgs?

Wondering on a source

Found this and while badly outdated it still has some games not yet listed in the incomplete PC section: http://www.barracudanet.com/timelapse/specials/bestgames.htm

The sources you are using are completely innaccurate. Most of which only started recording sales data in 1995.

Metal Gear

Does that "Metal Gear Solid" in the "franchises" mean only the MGS games or all the Metal Gear games? igordebraga ≠ 20:29, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

• Only the MGS, not the old MG's for the NES and such. Those sucked. RedZion71.145.208.158 21:53, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Consistency

Either "a million" or "ONE million" should be used to head off each section, but not both. I would prefer "one" but I'll let one of the regular editors make the choice. 71.116.217.242 18:45, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree that "One million" sounds more proper. Dionyseus 04:59, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

FFVIII sales number oddity

This sentence:

• Final Fantasy VIII (8.05 million) [1]

I've read the linked article, but I cannot find anything in it to support the number 8.05 million. And in a different place in the article I found this:

• Final Fantasy VIII (PS1 - 7.86 million)

A different number, one that matches those on the Everything and Nothing site. Anyone maintaining this article care to look into this and sort it out? --Codemonkey 14:39, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Clashing info?

I don't know if anyone else has noticed this, but on the PlayStation 2 article it lists the 'top selling game' as being Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, but this article lists Gran Turismo 3: A-Spec as being the top-seller. Can anyone verify which of these two sources is correct?

This issue has now been corrected. Grand Turismo 3 is the top seller. Dionyseus 11:29, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

• Thx. Though, it may be good to look out and keep and eye on that, since San Andreas is moving up on sales charts thanks to the removal of that Hot Coffee mod.RedZion71.145.208.158 21:54, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

X360, psp, and other number inflating?

It seems to me that the Xbox 360 (The worst instance) has had many of it's software numbers inflated for purposes of making it seem as the games sold better than they did. Perfect Dark Zero, a game which has sold ~400K in america, ~97K in the UK, and 9K in Japan, is noted as selling 1.96 million units on the X360 chart, which is completely fabricated. The same goes for the other X360 numbers, being either combined with their PC counterparts' numbers or just completely made up. I'd like to request a reference link stating those numbers are Sold and not Shipped

• PDZ recieved abysmal scores from the gaming press, due to shoddy AI and other stuff. Game INformer even stated '...Soldiers stood around...regularly shooting at level geometry...' There is no way that it sold over a million copies. Its impossible, since the 360 only sold around 800,000 units all told. Red Z71.145.208.158 21:56, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, Syphon Filter's claim of selling 1m on the PSP list also looks quite fake. I'd like sources on that one as well. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vagabond1 (talk • contribs) .

In regards to the number inflating, I've done some extensive research on the PSP inflation at my forum but there is nothing that can be 'verified' conclusively. It has been recently noted that Sony has a high stock pile of PSPs, which led to recent speculation of a PSP price cut, but nothing official yet. As much as I'd like to see the truth revealed on both no evidence exists that proves exactly how they inflate the numbers. Since both Sony and MS supply the media with 'shipped' numbers, they are legally allowed to claim all units shipped to warehouses for stockpiling as shipped units, depsite the fact they have not been shipped to retail at that point.--The Viper 05:15, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Verify

I have tagged the article with the {{verify}} tag. Someone must sit down and spend a full day reviewing every of the games that are there to see if the numbers are correct. There have been several modifications, blankings, additions and reorderings that I am not sure the numbers are as accurate as possible. -- ReyBrujo 02:42, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

You're right. It's a bit of an intimidating article though. But I'll see how far I can get. :) --Codemonkey 19:10, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, if you look through the edits, you can see I got the numbers up until, and including, the Nintendo section checked. I don't really have the time and will to check the rest. If someone else would check everything that comes after the Nintendo section, and the edits made after my last one, I'd be grateful. --Codemonkey 22:55, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

The top 20 list does not make any sense

It lists the highest selling game of all time as Super Mario Bros. 3 at around 17 million but a number of other games throughout the article clearly supass it (Pokemon anyone?). Not to mention the 360 list of million sellers which has no sources and as someone else pointed out has probably been inflated. This whole article is a mess... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.217.164.88 (talk • contribs) .

The top 20 only has games that had not been bundled with consoles, nor multiple series of games. Super Mario Bros. 3 sold 17 million games and is the best selling. Here are the games that are over 17m, and explanation of why they aren't above SMB3:

1. Tetris (32 million) (bundled with the original Game Boy)
2. Pokémon Red / Blue (31.37 million) (series of two games, not single game)
3. Pokémon Gold & Silver (23.10 million) (series of two games, not single game)
4. Super Mario Land (18.14 million) (bundled with later releases of Game Boy)
5. Super Mario World (20.61 million) (bundled with the SNES)

Now, if I _really_ search through old magazines, I _may_ find some Spanish one where a NES was bundled with SMB3, although I do not remember well, and truly speaking, Spain is a very small market. The Pack-in game article does not list Super Mario Land as bundled, but that article doesn't list references at all. -- ReyBrujo 04:29, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Ummm... Pokemon Red/Blue and Pokemon Gold/Silver are not "series". How many people bought both versions of the game? Not many. Red and Blue are the EXACT SAME except for like 15 Pokemon are different and some Pokemon are more rare in certain areas. As such, it should be considered the same game, not a series.

VinnyMendoza 3:43 AM, July 23 2006.

Are you BSing me?

Call of Duty 2 (1.46 million) [290] Ghost Recon: Advanced Warfighter (1.0 million) Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion (2.09 million) Perfect Dark Zero (1.96 million) Dead or Alive 4 (1.10 million) Condemed (1.50 million) Kameo (1.0 million) Madden 2006 (2.2 million) Battlefield 2: Modern Combat (1.8 million)

How accurate is that? McDonaldsGuy 17:58, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

To my knowledge, not very. I can't find anything to back it up with. I suggest that citations be added within the week or else removing them.--The Viper 05:16, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Pokemon games and similar

Shouldn't the Pokemon games be seperated? Their numbers get artifically inflated as there were many people that bought both version, thus giving themselves a double bump. Yellow is seperate, shouldn't Red and Blue be seperate as well? Not to mention how (or if) Pokemon Blue (the Japanese version, our Blue is their Green) is being counted. This also applies to a couple of other games, such as the Zelda Oracle games. --SeizureDog 01:03, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Red and Blue are the EXACT SAME except for like 15 Pokemon are different and some Pokemon are more rare in certain areas. As such, it should be considered the same game, not seperate. Yellow is seperate because it has more significant changes, like starter has to be Pikachu, he follows you around outside of a Pokeball, he has a happiness meter, you can get the 3 starters from the other games, Jesse and James are in it, etc.

VinnyMendoza 4:01 AM, July 23 2006.

WarCraft II

...is listed twice, as having sold both 3 million and 1 million copies. Can anyone verify a correct statistic? Is one of those actually for WarCraft II's expansion, "Beyond the Dark Portal"? --24.14.144.170 20:51, 29 May 2006 (UTC)TzeraFNX

Command & Conquer series

I find it hard to believe C&C is not on this list, as the article lists the series as selling over 35 million copies. Surely one of the C&C games must be selling well enough to get on the list, and I've heard the original Command & Conquer (Tiberian Dawn) sold 10 million copies!

There are a lot of games not on the list that should be. If you see a hole, go google up a source and please add it! -Quasipalm 13:41, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Franchise List: Mario & Donkey Kong

Under Best-selling franchises, I notice that Donkey Kong and Mario are listed as separate franchises. Wouldn't it make more sense to combine them, as they both originated from the same game? I know an argument could be made for excluding strictly Donkey Kong titles such as Donkey Kong Country, but couldn't the same be said of some of the Wario titles? Anyone know if they are included in the Mario franchise sales figures? -Enigmatick 14:15, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd say keep DK seperate from Mario. The Mario franchise are just games with Mario or some variant of Mario as the main character. Most DK games don't even have Mario.

VinnyMendoza 4:01 AM, July 23 2006.

Gran Turismo 3

Wasn't this bundled? McDonaldsGuy 22:18, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but Halo and Goldeneye were also bundled. Many games are bundled to help sell a system. Most are in limited stock. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 142.165.78.137 (talk • contribs) .

Numbers

Shouldn't the games be numbered 1), 2), 3), etc. in each category? That way people could see both the position of the game and comparisons between consoles of how many games sold more than one million. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.80.141.199 (talk • contribs) .

The current format looks fine to me. I mean without numbering we can still easily see that the PS2 has more million-sellers than any other console in history Xbox is off to a good start. If you want you can number each game in each category, and if it's decided that the current format looks better we can always revert back. Dionyseus 04:32, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

One of the reasons I avoided numbers originally is because we have no guarantees of completness. So, while we can all probably agree what the 1st 2nd or 3rd best selling game is for the PS2, there's no way this list would be accurate down to number 30, 40, or 50. I think it might be best to leave it a bit ambiguous since we know that there's no way we're capturing everything -Quasipalm 02:18, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Accuracy

I think it would be a good idea if we could get rid of all the games without sources for the information. It would greatly increase the quality of the article. --DChiuch 03:40, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Top Selling RPG Should Be Pokemon R/B

Pokemon R/B is a RPG, and has 31 million copies sold. Even if you're stupid and think it's not a single game, one version has to have sold at least 16 million copies, putting it well over Final Fantasy 7.

VinnyMendoza 4:01 AM, July 23 2006.

Added Top Selling Puzzle in Genres, Suggest Removing "Sandbox"

Puzzle is a huge genre, bigger and more legitimate than "Sandbox" anyway. Sandbox isn't even really a genre if you ask me, just a title that describes some games in a ton of genres. It's like saying "Jumping" is a genre of game, in which the game features jumping in the gameplay. Sandbox is simply a feature, not a genre. I suggest removing that section from the top selling genres.

VinnyMendoza 4:01 AM, July 23 2006.

Zelda

"It should also be noted that The Legend of Zelda series does not include Four Swords for Game Boy Advance, Four Swords Adventures for GameCube, and all CD-i games."

CD-i I can understand, but why not Four Swords or Four Swords Adventures? 65.219.212.63 19:39, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I second that question. 81.104.102.54 17:58, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. However, even the CD-I titles technically should be counted. Platform or success, even developer, doesn't dictate whether it is a part of the series or not. Get the numbers and add them if possible. The Viper 05:11, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

They aren't added because it is currently unknown how many copies Four Swords Adventures and the CD-i games sold. WhiteMinority 7:12, 5 September 2006

PC Franchise Sales

Should we not have a list of the largest franchise sales on the PC. Also shouldn't the C&C franchise be removed from the console section of the article since it's primarily a PC franchise?--nutcrackr 01:39, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the real solution here is to move the "franchise" section to the same level as PC and console games. The video game space is really changing, and you're seeing a lot of cross-over games that are released on several different platforms -- and often their numbers aren't released by platform but as a total, so we may have more and more issues that we have to deal with. -Quasipalm 20:07, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like a better idea, I'll start moving them into a different section and adding PC franchise titles. --nutcrackr 01:21, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Theme Hospital

Theme Hospital is one of the best selling PC games ever? Is there anything to confirm this as it sounds very unlikely. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.9.71.118 (talk • contribs) .

This article needs to be recreated.

Most of the sales figures are ioi's (the owner of vgcharts') estimates. It's been established that vgcharts is not a reliable source for this article, and these numbers should not be here. - A Link to the Past (talk) 00:18, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Good point, most of the existing items no longer have citations which make them pointless. Rather than recreating I think it would be easier if people steadily went through each game updating or removing it as necessary --nutcrackr 13:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Next Generation compiled a list with the 50 best selling portable games in the US. Since a game needs to get 1m worldwide to figure in this list, any portable game that is over 1m in US can be included here. However, I don't like their disclaimer This list's order and content is copyright to Next Generation and must not be reproduced or copied without the permission of the publisher. There are 15 games (they left some other games from some franchises outside, though) there with over 1m copies sold in US. You can check the list at http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3557&Itemid=2 -- ReyBrujo 01:42, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

And a Top 100 list by Next Generation with the same similarities at http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3537&Itemid=34 Since it is hard to get amounts for worldwide sales (other than press releases), I suggest concentrating on finding those games that have sold over 1m copies in an area, to justify the inclusion of the game in this article, and later caring about order. -- ReyBrujo 01:46, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

NextGen estimated those numbers. - A Link to the Past (talk) 04:24, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Based on NPD, publisher and retail sources. They are verifiable, coming from a reliable source. I guess that fits Wikipedia. Remember, verifiability, not truth. -- ReyBrujo 11:01, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

They show "estimated numbers" for the games, not NPD. I checked, and the NPD figures for, say, Nintendogs, and Next-Gen is 300k off. - A Link to the Past (talk) 01:51, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Plainly, we shouldn't care. That is something some editors in Wikipedia have a hard time understanding. -- ReyBrujo 12:40, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

And respectfully, if you make me choose between Next Generation and NeoGAF... -- ReyBrujo 12:41, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

We've no reason to not use NeoGAF. NextGen does not subscribe to NPD, while several people at NeoGAF do - namely bunkum, crazy buttocks on a train and (I believe) Fuzzy, who have often been the ones giving the sales figures. NextGen doesn't warrant usage. - A Link to the Past (talk) 13:23, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Post in boards are not reliable sources. Even though they may be the founders of NPD, the ones compiling data for NPD to present to others, or they are the ones taking the letters with the information to the publishers, Wikipedia is clear: post in boards should not be used as primary or secondary sources, while posts in reliable sites, not mattering how wild, can be used. It is strange, I admit that. But unless you can establish the notability of those forum members (aka, give first and lastname, where they work and how they get their information, and have their "real" persons and not alter egos inform that they are those posters), they are a unreliable source for Wikipedia. And if IGN states that GTA will be exclusive for Wii, we can put that information, no matter how strange, because IGN is a reliable source and it can be verified with a link to their story. Strange, but that is how Wikipedia works. -- ReyBrujo 17:32, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Look at the monthly sales data each month since January - tell me, is there a single instance where their numbers are ever incorrect? Has there ever been an instance where IGN had sales before NeoGAF for NPD? No, never. - A Link to the Past (talk) 22:39, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, they are accurate. No, we can't use them. NeoGAF is one of the first places where I check for that kind of information. But even though I know they are correct, Wikipedia can't accept it. We can ask in any of those talk pages to see what they think. However, unless the notability of the individuals posting information is clarified, we can't ask "John Common Smith" to trust the information posted in a forum where over 99% of the members just speculate. -- ReyBrujo 01:17, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

MMOs: "Subscriber base" does not equal "retail sales"

...And this is especially important for World of Warcraft's place on the list. I think it's a great game, but I know for the fact that the majority of its sales has come from Southeast Asia, a region widely known for using "game time cards" instead of boxed copies. And the same goes for Ragnarok Online, which is *based* in Southeast Asia (and I'm aware that RO is incredibly popular over there). Neither of the citations links to retail sales -- only subscriber numbers. Until someone can find citations that do (I've looked and haven't found anything), I'm going to take those two out. WoW's sales are probably buried somewhere in Vivendi's SEC filings... but good luck finding that needle in a haystack.

Teemack 07:01, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Hey you still need a boxed copy for the card to work dont you? It was like that in other mmos, and i think WoW should be some where on here, because it has 6 million subscribers. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.231.216.225 (talk • contribs) .

Page is not NPOV

Look at how it is listed, it goes PC, then Atari, Nintendo, Sega, Sony, Microsoft. Obviously, this is biased against consoles and against Microsoft. This should be in a logical order such as alphabetical instead of the current setup. Similar things have been done for other pages with hidden biases, such as the page on God which had an entry that did Christianity first, then Judaism, then Islam-- clearly biased against Muslims and Jews —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.109.194.57 (talk • contribs) .

I guess the consoles are sorted in "chronologic" order, from the very first to appear to the last one. Since PC isn't a console, it can go at the top or the bottom of the list, and since the article is named "computers and video games", they put PC at the beginning. -- ReyBrujo 04:07, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

article split?

This article looks a nightmare to maintain, and has littered with {{fact}} tags. It's nearly twice the recommended 32 KB size. In addition, some anons have been adding quite a bit of suspicious Sega figures lately. Any thoughts? Should we consider maybe splitting the article into subpages? Use categories, instead? I'd love some input, here. Dancter 22:09, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

The best way I can think to shorten it would be to list only the top 10 or 20 of each category instead all titles at or over 1 million. I personally enjoy how comprehensive it is at the moment but if for the sake of size continuity througout Wiki, a shrinking of each list to a specific number, 10 or 20, will take a good deal of size out of the article and still maintain a great deal of comprehension. i can't see how to split the page best except for having one page PC games, one page console games and one page handheld games. Mobile games later on if they ever become trackable.--The Viper 00:11, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the article could be split rather easily if needed. Best selling Playstation games (ps1,psp,ps2 etc), Best selling Xbox games (360 and 1), Best selling PC games, Best selling franchises (all), Best selling Nintendo games(snes, n64 etc) and Best selling console games(other). Most of these groups already exist in the main page so it wouldn't be that hard to extract them. Then have a master page, which is possibly the franchise one linking to all the groups perhaps with a summary of the top 5 selling games in each group if needed.nutcrackr 03:46, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

This sounds pretty good. I don't know if it has to be so hierarchical, though. Even with this approach, would categories still be a good idea, or would it be redundant? I think million-sellers would be good candidates for this sort of thing. Dancter 16:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm all for the split and I think one of the biggest changes should be the requirement of sources for all the titles. I've been seeing a few dozen Sega games added recently with no source and I cannot find anything to back them up on the Internet to even verify (regardless of validity). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by The Viper (talk • contribs) 02:58, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

On closer examination, category pages could include a lists as well, like we're currently using, complete with sales numbers and reference links. It's not orthodox to have article-length content in category pages, but a short list (like top 10) would seem perfectly alright. I think a transition to categories should be seriously considered. Dancter 17:40, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Split Page between console maker

• Split I prefer this method and perhaps one page dedicated to just the handhelds. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by The Viper (talk • contribs) 02:58, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
• I would also prefer this method of splitting nutcrackr 04:20, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Transition to Category system

• Split We can have different pages for different criteria. We can have pages for million sellers, top-selling RPGs, top Virtual boy games, etc. It seems much more manageable. Dancter 17:40, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Next Generation ranks 21st century titles

PC, Console, Handheld. Since these are only for games released since 2000, I'm not sure if they are relevant as a source for this article, but since it seems to be so hard to find reliable sources for this it might be useful to include them. Ajaxfan 14:07, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I have pointed out those articles, but they have a disclaimer stating that information cannot be used. Also, some editors don't like it as source. -- ReyBrujo 21:51, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Disputed tags

i added disputed tags to some sections that look particularly bad. most of this article is complete rubbish, btw. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 161.45.204.52 (talk • contribs) .

Where are all the sources?

I tend to cite this page a lot in discussions, but there are barely any sources cited. Where did these numbers come from? They seem legitimate yet there are no sources proving them correct. 75.32.93.214 00:34, 15 September 2006 (UTC) 9/14/06

Most of the article uses incorrect information. It needs to be recreated. - A Link to the Past (talk) 05:48, 15 September 2006 (UTC)