Talk:List of burghs in Scotland

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The term 'burgh' is still commonly known, but it is generally only used in legal and historical documentation. In everyday speech it is certainly not commonly used as an alternative to 'town'. Adambisset 01:57, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Burgh pages

Errr.. I'm thinking of reorganising the bits and pieces about burghs ti make more sense. I found a list of large burghs here Large burgh and a list of royal burghs somewhere else, which is also on this apge. I also have a list of butrghs by category and county which could replace what is here, and some bits on the legislation that's behind various cjanges. anyone got an opinion? Lozleader 17:09, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't think this page should be outright replaced, but probably moved to List of towns in Scotland and expanded to cover post-1975 new towns and suchforth. (on the basis that burgh is Scots for borough, not for town)

Then I suppose a table showing every burgh, when various things happened to it (created, abolished, categorised into large burgh/small burgh, made a police burgh, made a municipal burgh, was reformed), etc. Once we get the raw data can think a bit about how to handle it. Morwen - Talk 18:22, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Hmmmm. I have an idea of doing 1892 -1975 Burghs, grouped by county. There are reasons for this - my understanding is that the old burghs of regality and barony were finally dissolved at that date, leaving only the actual local goverrnment bodies. The altter types of burgh are a bit ephemeral, and there is some doubt about some of them. I'd rather put up something solid and then worry about the rest.

I was also thinking of putting together a page on the LGA (Scotland) 1929 as this made a lot of changes (formed joint county councils, merged some burghs, designated large and small burghs, abolished parish councils and replaced them with district councils). It also got rid of the poor law system, but I don't really understand that.

Lozleader 20:37, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Sounds good. Poor law system is rather poorly documented at poor law union at the moment. Have been working on it. Morwen - Talk 23:32, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

OK, here's a bit (sample county) of the table which is virtually complete - should I just take out the list of burghs on this page and replace it?

Angus or Forfarshire

Burgh (date of adoption of police system)	Earlier burghal history
Arbroath royal burgh (1836)	Royal burgh 1599.
Brechin royal burgh (1893?)	Royal burgh status ratified 1641.
Forfar royal burgh (1857)	Created royal burgh c 1123 - 62
Montrose royal burgh (1833)	Created royal burgh by c 1124 - 53
Broughty Ferry burgh (1864 - 1913) ‡	None
Carnoustie burgh (1889)	None
Kirriemuir burgh (1834)	Burgh of barony 1459, burgh of regality 1670
Monifieth burgh (1895)	None

‡ Absorbed by Dundee royal burgh 1913

Lozleader 11:10, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

That looks good, although I've fiddled with the formatting a bit (see the diff). Morwen - Talk 18:53, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

V good, I need to tweak it abit and de the old de- disambiguation on it anyway. Lozleader 19:51, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

County names and boundaries

I take it the county names and boudaries used in the article are those used for local government purposes circa 1890 to 1975, not earlier names and boundaries. I intend to add a note to this effect in the article. Laurel Bush 10:51, 14 February 2006 (UTC).

Yes, that was the way I built the table. Lozleader 17:08, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Parliamentary burghs

Inverbervie

I am finding no reference to Inverbervie, Aberdeenshire. According to District of burghs (UK Parliament) it was a parliamentary burgh 1708 to 1950. Laurel Bush 13:28, 9 February 2006 (UTC).

OK. I've found it - in Kincardinshire. Laurel Bush 11:07, 10 February 2006 (UTC).

Buckhaven, Methil and Innerleven

Under Fife I find a reference to a police burgh called Buckhaven and Methil, created 1891. In District of burghs I find references to two parliamentary burghs called Buckhaven and Methil and Innerleven, created 1918. Perhaps by 1918 there was no sense of a need for the names of parliamentary burghs to correspond with the names of burghs for other purposes. Or is there some other explanation? Laurel Bush 12:07, 14 February 2006 (UTC).

According to this [1] the police burgh originally had the three names - must have changed after 1918. Lozleader 17:07, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I guess its possible that the areas of two parliamentary burghs, dividing the area one police burgh, were named with elements from the original name of the police burgh, Buckhaven, Methil and Innerleven. Perhaps more likely there was effectively just one parliamentary burgh with the original name of the police burgh. Laurel Bush 10:19, 15 February 2006 (UTC).

The Ninth Schedule to the Representation of the People (Scotland) Act 1918 lists the burgh as "Buckhaven Methil and Innerleven"--George Burgess 18:42, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Queensferry/South Queensferry

I am finding no reference to South Queensferry. According to District of burghs it was a parliamentary burgh 1708 to 1832. District of burghs, however, has the burgh in Fife. I guess it was Midlothian. Laurel Bush 12:29, 15 February 2006 (UTC).

According to County & Burgh Heraldry (1973) - "Queensferry was a burgh dependent on the Abbey of Dunfermline by 1328, and as South Queensferry was created a Burgh of Regality in favour of Robert Pitcairn, Archdeacon of St Andrews, as commendator of Dunfermline, in 1576 - 1577. It was made a Royal Burgh by King Charles I in 1636. It was in West Lothian.

Which I think makes Queensferry and South Queensferry the same place - in West Lothian (or Linlithgowshire), being where the ferries from St Andrews (in Fife) landed. I presume this accounts for the Fife link? Lozleader 22:58, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

errr I just looked at the district of burghs and am now thoroughly confused - perhaps the royal burgh (Queensferry) and burgh of regality (South Queensferry) had different areas with an overlap?

Lozleader 23:04, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

[2] VOB link may be some help. Lozleader 23:13, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Cheers. Queensferry links, by the way, to an article about somewhere in Wales. Laurel Bush 10:25, 16 February 2006 (UTC).

Looks to me now like Queensferry, as a parliamentary burgh, was renamed South Queensferry in 1832. Probably enlarged as well. (At this time, 1832, boundaries of burghs for parliamentary elections ceased to be necessarily their boundaries for other purposes.) Laurel Bush 10:39, 16 February 2006 (UTC).

Wigtown

OK. Think I have now accounted for all of the parliamentary burghs in List of burghs in Scotland, except Wigtown seems to be missing. It was one of the Wigtown Burghs. Laurel Bush 12:51, 16 February 2006 (UTC).

From here I have this about Wigtown: A town, until 1975 in the county of Wigtown and a royal burgh until 1975. A small burgh from 1930 until 1975. No indication that it was ever a police burgh. No date for its erection as a royal burgh. Laurel Bush 11:07, 17 February 2006 (UTC).

Sorry for missing that one - I think any royal burgh that hadn't adopted a police system by 1893 became one in that year under the Burgh Police (Scotland) Act, 1892. Lozleader 17:35, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Cheers. Laurel Bush 18:52, 17 February 2006 (UTC).

Just looking at the table in District of burghs, I wonder if the original table from which the data is extracted might not have read the "Buckhaven, Methil & Innerleven", and "Queensferry / South Queensferry" but with each entry split onto two different lines - later misinterpreted as different burghs? Just a theory. BTW the work you have done on thse is valuable - and picked up a good few mistakes! Well done. Lozleader 22:53, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Kincardine

Can somebody add Kincardine http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/scotgaz/towns/townfirst43.html says it was founded as a burgh of barony in 1663. Thanks/wangi 09:30, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I note that Laurel Bush has added it now, but under "Fife". Is this correct? Although now in Fife, it was only put there in 1890, prior to which it was in Perthshire. I note that Doune, Dunblane and Callander are listed under "Perthshire" (despite no longer being in Perthshire), so why is Kincardine listed under "Fife"? --Mais oui! 11:35, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

According to VOB the parish of Tulliallan that contained the burgh was in Perthshire until 1891, then in Fife. It would have been abolished in 1893 by the Burgh Police (Scotland) Act of the previous year, along with all non-police burghs so it spent just 2 years as a burgh in Fife. Lozleader 21:53, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Seems to me that listing burghs by county is itself questionable, because some have belonged to more than one. Or perhaps burghs like Kincardine should be under two counties, with dates for the change? Laurel Bush 09:29, 6 April 2006 (UTC).

Well I'll just say thanks - it's this complexity that caused me to ask someone else to add the entry ;)

And as a thank you Laurel, I've tidied up Queensferry that you noted above. Thanks/wangi 09:37, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

"County" subdivisions

Following on from User:Laurel Bush's comment above: "Seems to me that listing burghs by county is itself questionable... ":

I think that the use of the so-called "counties" is highly dubious, especially in the case of burghs. All the classic burghs were created centuries before the word "county" even began being used in Scotland, let alone the late date at which counties were officially established in Scotland: 1890. Eg. the Royal Burgh of Roxburgh had been long abandoned as a settlement - long, long before "Roxburghshire" was even a twinkle in a civil servant's eye. The county subdivisions are very, very late in the history of Scotland, whereas burghs were there from near the beginning of the emergant state. --Mais oui! 11:07, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I built the table this way because it was the way it was organised in the sources. Yes, the burghs predate the counties (which are seventeenth or eighteenth century in origin I think, and which were altered in the 1890s). The counties are, for the most part, where the burgh was situated at abolition in 1975 or earlier.

Counties are relevant in a post 1930 situation in that small burghs lost most of their powers to the county council, and conversely large burghs took over most of the county services in their area.

Any way, the question remains of how to organise the information: alphabetically?

Lozleader 13:07, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Alphabetically? Perhaps. Right now I can not think of anything better. We seem to need some way of taking account of the time dimension. While they existed, county boundaries went through a lot of changes, and if, for example, we restrict the list to burghs abolished in 1975, then we lose all burghs abolished by earlier reforms, including perhaps those whose names became names of cities. Laurel Bush 16:38, 6 July 2007 (UTC).

Another approach. Two distinct lists. One of burghs abolished in 1975, with counties as at that date. Another of burghs 'abolished' at earlier dates, with counties as at time of abolition. I guess, however, the latter list would have to include the four burghs which became counties of cities.
Laurel Bush 15:15, 23 July 2007 (UTC).

A useful source document

I've stumbled upon this document - http://www.caledonia.org.uk/commonweal/docs/commongood_v3.pdf - which lists all Scottish burghs. It is based on George S. Pryde's book, The Burghs of Scotland, but with the addition of police burghs.

Might be of use... From a quick glace there a few more listed... /wangi 22:02, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Very interesting. I wonder how easy it is to obtain a copy of Pryde's book. I can see this leading to complete redesign of the page.

Lozleader 11:22, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Canongate

From the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Scotland website:

David I granted to the abbey of Holyrood authority to build and enclose a burgh between the abbey and Edinburgh, 1128 x 1153. Canongate was subsequently erected burgh of regality (Bellenden of Auchnoule) in 1587, and again burgh of regality (city of Edinburgh), 1639. G S Pryde 1965.

I am not seeing Canongate listed in the article. Seems to have merged into Edinburgh mid 19th century. Laurel Bush 15:48, 18 August 2006 (UTC).

Musselburgh

Musselburgh is listed under Midlothian, even although it is situated in East Lothian, is this correct? Im.sarcastic 14:04, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Historically Midlothian (or Edinburghshire) included Musselburgh (see [3]). /wangi 14:21, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Large burgh and Small burgh

Rather than keep these lists separate, why not merge them into the tables here? It would only require an additional column, called "Post 1930 status" or something, and the background text could be put into Burgh, which needs expanding anyway. Any comments? Jonathan Oldenbuck 15:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Towns or Burghs?

If the term has been legally abolished and is in disuse, why the hell is it being used here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.194.146.58 (talk) 13:25, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Because they existed. Similarly, we have articles on Municipal boroughs, Urban districts and Rural districts in England, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, even though they were also abolished in the 1970s (later in the Republic of Ireland). Incidentally, many towns in Scotland still describe themselves as "Royal borough". Your argument seems to be on the basis that "the Austro-Hungarian Empire no longer exists, so we should not have an article about it." Skinsmoke (talk) 11:19, 14 January 2014 (UTC)