Talk:List of castles in Wales

Historic counties

I have reverted Enaidmawr's unilateral edits because not only was there no consensus (this page has been organised this way for a long time), the organisation Enaidmawr chose was completely nonsensical. Owain (talk) 17:56, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

In that case you have done Wikipedia a disservice. One of many Wikipedia mantras is "be bold" and improve articles. This Enaidmawr has done bringing the article into the 21st Century using geographical references that are meaningful to people living in Wales and visiting Wales. Using historic counties adds absolutely nothing and detracts greatly. I fully support and endorse Enaidmawr 's edit and deprecate Owain's. Velela (talk) 20:01, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your support, Velela. I fear that when Owain says that my rearranging of the article "was completely nonsensical" what he means is that I use the modern administrative areas instead of the ones which have either disappeared or whose boundaries have been changed. Where was the sense of having "castles in Cardiganshire" instead of Ceredigion, for instance, as the former has been replaced by the latter and is not found on modern maps? Most of the castles of Wales on this list were also built before the so-called "historic counties" were created, so their retention would be a double anachronism. What needs improving is the sections on Glamorgan and Gwent (both preserved counties), which need breaking down into their respective modern administrative areas. User Owain's agenda has always been to give the "historical counties" precedence over the modern ones, as the record of his edits proves. As Velela says, we are now in the 21st century: the "historic counties" belong to history. Enaidmawr (talk) 21:21, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, using modern administrative areas is logical and supported by policy (WP:PLACE). Nev1 (talk) 13:51, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. I've done the splits for Gwent and Glamorgan, but they could do with being checked. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:44, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. Wikipedia policy is quite clear: use the principal areas, that is modern counties and county boroughs, for lists like this. Skinsmoke (talk) 20:13, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

A little late, but I disagree. Historically, it has not been the practice to match geographical divisions to administrative areas. County boroughs existed throughout England and Wales prior to 1974, but it was not considered necessary (although Bristol was sometimes an exception) to exclude them from the counties which contained them, for geographical purposes. Treating counties and county boroughs in Wales equally for the purposes of geographical division is inconvenient - some might say absurd - in view of the disparity in sizes. Paravane (talk) 23:07, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Castle lists

I suspect that some of the structure listed here are either non existent, play-on-words or simply not worth mentioning.

Several "named castles" can't be found searching for them on the Internet or do not match any recognised name. More care must be taken to stop these erroneous sites being added.

Logically this list should contain sites that can be visited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.166.69.62 (talk) 19:18, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Was wondering the same thing. I am removing Aberaeron Castle until someone can provide referenced information of anything other than the 19th century Hotel. --Traveler100 (talk) 14:46, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Aberaeron seems to have existed, although there's very little about it [1]. This website is very good for checking Wikipedia's list for spurious entries. Actually deciding what merits inclusion is difficult, but since the list needs an overhaul the best thing to do would be to work for Cathcart King's Castellarium Anglicanum which is a pretty comprehensive bibliography of castles in England and Wales. Nev1 (talk) 15:05, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Useful website. Thanks for the information.

For future information, the recent vandalism here has been to add references to http://pulynyaleg.neonblade.com/index.html - which is a hoax site. ("Pulyn-y-Aleg", get it?? Ho ho ho, very funny.) Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:46, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Vandalism? Thats a bit strong, lighten up. It's really just a bit of fun. But sorry if I have offended you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.101.44.230 (talk) 14:22, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Your website might be 'a bit of fun', but why should you think wikipedia is a forum just waiting for you to have your 'bit of fun' when you please? You may find wikipedia boring without being lightened up, others find flippant additions an intrusion, and especially annoying if you persist in making them, instead of taking the hint when they're deleted. However, thank you for your apology! Paravane (talk) 16:48, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Comparison

ther's much better pictures of castles than the one that is there, just saying. thanks list of castles in Scotland in comparrison looks FINNISHED with pictures aswell also. I counted 145 casltes in Wales on that list and ONLY ONE AWEFUL picture to go with it, thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.103.160.253 (talk) 11:38, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

there are in excess of 400 castles in Wales and about 160 still standing, some are missing from this list also [[2]] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.103.160.253 (talk) 13:00, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

The reason a picture of Caernarfon was chosen as the lead is because it's probably the best known of the castles in wales and on top of that is part of a World Heritage Site. Unfortunately Wikipedia doesn't have really outstanding photos of the castle, but I think it could be worse. As you say though, the list could do with some work. In the meantime, I have at least added a few other images. Nev1 (talk) 19:26, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Castell Cadwgan

I read above that an earlier reference to "Aberaeron Castle" has been removed (no doubt originally added by someone in good faith), so just to say that I have now added Castell Cadwgan (in Aberaeron) now that the Aberaeron page contains a proper reference to it. I assume that this was the castle which was earlier being referred to, albeit by the wrong name. Hogyn Lleol (talk) 13:29, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, as I said above Aberaeron Castle is Castell Cadwgan. Nev1 (talk) 13:55, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Page design

In its present state this article is not much more than a list of names. I think maybe tables should be introduced with more information and images, similar to the pages for England and Scotland. Njb19 (talk) 12:08, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales

Would this article benefit from having an external link to the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales and its online database: Coflein.

Thank you for considering! Charles.rcahmw (talk) 13:11, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

I have added Coflein to the external links. As far as I know the RCAHMW does not have any role in managing the castles. Verbcatcher (talk) 23:30, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Chateau Rhianfa

@Reese3196: I am dubious that Chateau Rhianfa should be classified as a castle. It is a mansion, formerly known as Plas Rhianfa. It is unclear when 'Chateau' was first used, possibly added in recent years when it became a hotel. Cadw does not use this name, and does not describe it as a castle.[3][4] I propose to remove it from this list. Verbcatcher (talk) 23:51, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree. It was built in the 19th century as a summer home and dower house for his wife by the wealthy Manchester businessman John Williams. It is not, in any sense, fortified and has none of the characteristic defining features of a castle. Simply a somewhat ornate Victorian mansion. The appellation "Chateau" is a very recent change by the current hotel owners. Certainly not a castle.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   04:28, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm also in favour of not including the 19th-century mansion. Richard Nevell (talk) 19:08, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Since this article is linked in the opening sentence to Castle which initially defines castles as from the middle ages or earlier (although it then qualifies that with some weasel wording!) then I would propose that anything later than the 18th Century is removed including Crawshay's folly in Merthyr.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   21:35, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

We should not be restrictive as to date. If a building is generally referred to as a castle then it should be included, irrespective of age. Penrhyn Castle and Gwrych Castle are 19th century, but look like stereotypical castles and probably have some characteristics of older castles. I think we also should include Margam Castle, because it is normally known as a castle and Cadw includes the name. Verbcatcher (talk) 00:34, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

If that were to be a consensus view, then we would need to define what is meant by a castle as it would differ greatly from the definition given at Castle. I think that this is a slippery slope since it would open the doors to anyone calling their mansion/ restaurant/ hotel/ holiday cottage "Castle......." or "Castell.....".  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   04:54, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

We should include the castles discussed in Castle#Later use and revival castles. Neuschwanstein Castle is realistically described as a castle. I don't think there is a slippery slope here, as most of the entries have linked articles, and we can easily remove commercial properties that have newly-changed names. Our castles are more convincing than List of castles in the United States. Verbcatcher (talk) 18:07, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

With a list article, it's better to be more inclusive than exclusive, to include things which may not be considered castles by everyone than be overly restrictive as long as the edge cases are indicated.

A source such as Pettifer's Welsh Castles has an entry for Penrhyn which is a case for inclusion here. Margam, however, isn't included in the book. That isn't the only source we should use of course, but it does make me wonder if it should be included here. Penrhyn was built in the style of a medieval castle, with architecture evocative of a Norman keep. I suppose Margam does have battlements of a sort, in imitation of castle architecture but seems a step removed from castles, and Cadw describes it as a "Tudor-Gothic mansion of exceptional quality". Richard Nevell (talk) 22:52, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Widening the scope from the Castle article will require explanation and clarification early on in the lede. I remain concerned that it will be difficult to make a clear definition. There are still strongly fortified manor houses in Wales that are in most respects castles of their time but are not called castles. We also have houses such as Castell Malgwyn which clearly is not a castle nor ever was but is known as a Castle in the Llechryd area. Do we also encompass Castell and Caer as defining terms? Anyone care to try and draft an opening paragraph for the article? On this talk page would probably be as good a place as any.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   02:42, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

References