Talk:List of cities renamed by Azerbaijan

POV

There is what looks like POV bias in the content of this article. Firstly we have the "change not recognized by the unrecognized Nagorno-Karabakh Republic" qualifier inserted into the text on a number of occasions. Secondly, there is no listing of the name changes by Nagorno Karabakh that have taken place in areas of Nagorno Karabakh and surrounding districts that are not under the control of Azerbaijan. The text can't have it both ways - either the latter should also be listed (the better solution), or the "change not recognised" text should be removed. Meowy 19:42, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Your forgetting that Nagorno Karabakh doesn't exist for our Azeri neighbors. I think a better solution is to separate the NK towns in a section that way we can have "not recognized by the unrecognized" or some other NPOV wording we come up with to show up only once and not mess up the entire article. As for the towns renamed by the NK Armenians (renaming went both ways) we can create a new article. VartanM (talk) 20:06, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Of course I forgot the most obvious bias - the use of the modern Azerbaijani alphabet to spell the place names! The related http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_renamed_cities_in_Armenia and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_renamed_cities_in_Georgia do not use the Amrenian or Georgian alphabets. And of course there is no justification at all in using the modern Azerbaijani alphabet to spell place names that date from Soviet times or earlier. I would go ahead and change it, but I'm not 100% certain of the spelling I should use. Meowy 21:37, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I've added a POV tag to the article in the hope that it will attract attention and get the alphabet issue resolved. Meowy 21:43, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

To make it clearer - what I think should happen is that all the old names should be written using the normal English alphabet, and all the new names should also be written using the normal English alphabet but spelt so that they approximate to the current pronounciation, and in brackets they should also have the name spelt in modern Azeri. This would follow the example of settlements rendered in other foreign-language alphabets, such as those in China or India. And it would follow the advice Wikipedia:Proper_names "established English names are preferred if they exist, and foreign names should always be transcribed into the Roman alphabet". Though that advice is not quite clear-cut. The modern Azeri alphabet is a Latin alphabet, but uses certain letters that are specific only to it. Meowy 23:57, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Also, a few of the cities are well known enough to have established English names for the spelling - Ganja and Khankendi for example. Meowy 00:14, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Change not recognized part should go, I agree, but the alphabet claim is weird. The alphabet is used to convey Azerbaijani spelling, and which rule says that we cannot use the modern alphabets in such situations? Please show me that rule. If that is your personal belief, sorry, but it is not a good reason for attaching the tag.--Grandmaster 05:19, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

If someone can show that any particular English version is the widely accepted one, the title should be at that; if however, it cannot be shown, the local name is used. That's been WP policy for a long time and is applicable everywhere, whether or not there is a territorial dispute - no reason to depart which can only be a POV push in one direction or another. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 14:43, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Brand, the POV issues were not resolved. The concerned names were not Azeri, neither were they writen in Azeri. VartanM (talk) 20:32, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

As far as I know, all cities here are within the internationally recognized borders of Azerbaijan. There is no point to toss up. brandспойт 08:32, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Some names were indeed Russian and German, but those names are not written in Azeri script. They are all written in English. The rest are Azeri names, and they spelled in Azeri. --Grandmaster 09:44, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Vartashen and Norashen are Azeri names? Wow, we learn something new everyday. VartanM (talk) 18:07, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Add Kutkashen to that. And once again, Xankendi was not a city in 1923, so its inclusion is not warranted. Just the same way Armenian Shosh village is not in front of Shusha. Of course if we all agree that villages should also be included, I would have no problem with the inclusion of Xankendi and Shosh as previous names. Perhaps we can somehow mention that they were not cities. VartanM (talk) 18:19, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Shosh and Shusha are 2 different locations, Khankendi and Stepanakert are the same place. It is the former name of this settlement, whether it was a city at the time is of no consequence here. This article discusses the former names of the present day cities in Azerbaijan.--Grandmaster 20:14, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Carlossuarez46, you've misread the problem, it's nothing to do with territorial disputes. The Azeri alphabet was only devised in the 1990s, but it is being used here to spell out placenames that are medieval place-names, or 19th century place-names, or Soviet-era placenames. For example, Ganja was never spelt "Gəncə" before its name change to "Elisabethpol" in 1805. And Ganja is no more an "Azeri name" that Paris is a "French name" or London an "English name". I think the solution should be something like Ganja → Elisabethpol (1805) → Ganja (1918) → Kirovabad (1935) → Ganja (az: Gəncə) (1989). Meowy 18:51, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand this argument about the alphabet. What does it matter if the present alphabet was not used in the 19th century? The alphabet is used only to convey the spelling. Otherwise we will have to use the old Russian script to write the Russian names of 19th century. It makes no sense. --Grandmaster 20:25, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

This is the English language wikipedia, so Cyrillic script can't be used on its own for placenames, but only if it is given beside the Latin alphabet equivalent. If your support for using the modern Azeri alphabet to spell 19th-century placenames is just about "conveying the spelling" then surely spelling it using an alphabet everyone can read and understand and that every computer can display is the better solution?

Fixed by book: Азербайджанская ССР, Административно-территориальное деление, Азербайджанское государственное издание, Баку, 1977 год. page. 211. Gragg (talk) 20:50, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I would agree with Carlos. Looks like all English-established names are fixed and the others are Azeri because no common English spelling of them exists. It is time to remove the tag. brandспойт 10:59, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

The common English spelling guidance applies for current place-names (eg.Ganja (az: Gəncə) ) - there is no case for using a modern, partially non-latin alphabet to spell names that were never spelt using that alphabet. Meowy 02:36, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Columns

How about helpful columns? Dates could go in there too. --RaffiKojian (talk) 15:32, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Soviet Name	Current Azeri name	Current RMK name	Other
Stepanakert	Xankendi	Stepanakert	other names, notes
Kelbajar	Kelbajar	Karvajar	whatever