Talk:List of composers from Brittany

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Hello, why a title : List of composers from Bretagne, and not a full English title : List of Breton composers from Brittany? --Lisenn (talk) 12:37, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

* Bretage and Brittany are two different things.

*"Breton" is ambiguous, and none of the significations is satisfactory. Rama (talk) 13:07, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Why are you saying Bretagne and Brittany are two differents things? Bretagne means Brittany in French... it's as simple as that. Then why use a French word and not the English one? --Lisenn (talk) 19:58, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

No it does not.

• Brittany is the former country, which was annexed by France and is now a part of France.
• Bretagne is an administrative region of modern France.

For instance Anne de Bretagne was from Brittany; you will notice that her biographical article adequately labels her "a Breton aristocrat". Jules Verne was from Bretagne, and his biographical article adequately labels him "a French author". Rama (talk) 20:39, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally, if you are interested in learning more about Brittany and Bretagne, you might want to read the relevant articles Bretagne and Brittany. Rama (talk) 20:42, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I tend to agree that "List of Composers from Bretagne' is fundamentally silly. "Brittany" is not "the former country, which was annexed by France". It is the English word for Bretagne. There is no distinction in French between "Bretagne" and "Brittany", and there is no distinction in English either. The modern peninsula is called Brittany in English. It didn't change to "Bretagne" in 1532, or 1789, or 1941 (when exactly is this "Bretagne" supposed to have come into being?). Anyway, the borders of the modern region were only determined in the mid 20th century. In much of the nineteenth and 20th C there was no such administrative unit, so it is nonsensical to use the French name on the same rationale as the article on the administrative region, especially as many of the composers listed here lived and died before it even existed. So how is being from "Bretagne" defined? Do you have to have been born in the borders of the modern region even before it existed? When? Paul B (talk) 21:17, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Having had no response to the above comment, I have reverted the change of title to the original "from Brittany". Incidentally, Jules Verne was absolutely not from "Bretagne", since he lived his entire life before the Région was created, and he was born in Nantes, which is not part of the post-1941 Région. Paul Ladmirault, who is on the list, also lived most of his life in Nantes, but self-identified strongly as a Breton (indeed as a Breton nationalist) and most of his music was defined by that fact. To exclude him would be contrary to both common sense and to the usefulness of the list. Paul B (talk) 13:25, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I do not object to your revert, and I think you make a very good point with your argument of anachronism.

This being said, the Wikipedia articles Bretagne and Brittany seem to disagree with your "there is no distinction in English either"; and of course, the terms région Bretagne, Bretagne and Duché de Bretagne exist in French and have specific, different meanings, which reflect the nuances of "Bretagne" and "Brittany". Rama (talk) 17:32, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

No they do not, since the distinction is created by English Wikipedia editors and does not exist anywhere else, in English or any other language, as your examples from France prove since they all use the same word. Paul B (talk) 07:44, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

région Bretagne, Bretagne and Duché de Bretagne are not the same words. Rama (talk) 10:55, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes they are. They all use the same word - "Bretagne". The word is identical. In English they would translate as "Region of Brittany", Brittany" and "Duchy of Brittany". In each case the same word is used, as in all other cases in which there are kingdoms, duchies, principalities and whatever in the history of a named area. We don't have "Germany" and "Nazi Deutchland". We have Germany and Nazi Germany - along with German Empire and many other sub-articles. Foreign-language or historical names are only used when that is the norm in English. Thus we say Third Reich instead of "Third Empire" or "Dritte Reich". In this case the half-english half-german term is what is used in normal English and even by scholars. That's the rule. Paul B (talk) 11:04, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

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