Talk:List of compositions by Jean Sibelius

JS order

I think it should provide an opus number (JS) order as well, like other wikipedia pages. Triplecaña (talk) 09:26, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Soloists

The soloists (12 of them appear here) should be removed. This should be a list of compositions, not performances.  SurreyJohn   (Talk) 18:35, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Indeed the 'first performed' stuff is rediculous cruft for a workslist. Perfectly suitable on the articles themselves, but not here. I was hoping someone would revert the nonsense when it started appearing but alas... ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 22:23, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

I appreciate your comments, but I disagree. I am the one responsible for the additions decried, but I disagree with the characterization. Three points: 1) nowhere is there a rule that list of works pages may not include attendant details, such as first performance (indeed, many sources, which many readers cannot get access to on their own, list performance details for compositions); 2) many composer's list of works pages have performance details, hence my efforts on Sibelius are here not an outlier; and, 3) while composition articles have first performance details, many of his pieces do not have pages of their own and, as such, there is no other place to put this important, useful information. I have, moreover, tried to exercise caution, leaving out conductor and orchestra details, so as not to become too burdensome. I would argue also that it is an overly narrow reading of the article title to conclude that a list of compositions cannot too be a list with performance details, but reasonable people can disagree on this point. Sgvrfjs (talk) 05:51, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Transition to sortable wikitable

At various points throughout my time on Wikipedia, a number of editors have mentioned to me the desirability to transitioning the List of Compositions by Jean Sibelius page to a sortable table. I have begun this project in my sandbox and it is about 85% complete; I have decided to begin moving it over in pieces. What this means is that for a short period of time, the page will be in a state of transition, caught between traditional wikilist and a sortable wikitable. A couple of things to note:

1. I have utilized the 'Classical composition header' template, adopted and adapted to the needs of Sibelius. (I believe I found this template either on the List of compositions by Max Reger or List of compositions by Francis Poulenc pages, which I found much more user-friendly than, for example, the non-template wikilists of List of compositions by Edvard Grieg or List of compositions by Antonin Dvorak.)
2. A Sibelius sortable wikitable requires one column for Op. numbers and a second for JS numbers; as such, I had to adapt the template, which only provides one column for catalogue number. (Note: For Sibelius, a given composition has either an Op. or a JS number, but not both. These cannot be combined into one column, because then the reader cannot sort by Op. or JS ... i.e., combining would have the first entry be JS 1 and the second by Op. 1. Op. numbers are, more or less, chronological, whereas JS numbers are alphabetical. This segregated setup will allow the reader to sort by Op. as well as by JS, as @Triplecaña: has recommended.)
3. I have provided for distinct 'category' and 'genre' columns. (One of my greatest frustrations with existing lists is that I often cannot quickly sort by just orchestral works or chamber works, or relatedly, by just stage works or string quartets. I see these two as distinct parameters. For example, Ödlan is a chamber work for stage ... one reader in search of all of Sibelius's stage works would want her sort to turn up Ödlan just as another reader in search of all of Sibelius's chamber works would also want to turn up Ödlan; however, the first would not want string quartets, and the second would not want orchestral compositions for stage such as The Tempest.)
4. I have included an infobox, but not as window-dressing, but rather as a key navigational tool. (One of my favorite features of the work @Gerda Arendt: and others have done on List of compositions by Carl Nielsen, is that the sortable wikitable has been made to navigate in conjunction with the infobox, which provides page jumps to particular sections. This really, really helps assist the reader with navigation to the genre of compositions she is interest in.)
5. I have listened and followed the advice of @Melodia: and removed information on dates and location of premieres. (I think this user is right, and premiere info just clutters the page up. Hopefully s/he will be pleased with this development.)
6. I have provided a column for notes, so that the reader has easily at her fingertips key, succinct information about necessary changes to the composition (e.g., revisions, lost, naming-issues, etc.) and/or different versions (i.e., arrangements, orchestrations, etc.). (Here, I have been guided by the principle that 'less is more' but ignorance of key details is worse. For example, a list of Sibelius's compositions should let the reader know that Symphony No. 8 is lost, that The Oceanides originated from an earlier suite, that the song Ariso has been orchestrated and revised, etc.)

Okay, some work remains to be done, but I hope the community will see this transition as an upgrade for our favorite composer and, thus, well worth the time investment. Sgvrfjs (talk) 19:03, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

I seem to be having some minor issues with the 'lang' feature, which worked fine on my sandbox User:Sgvrfjs/Sibelius loc but not here once the code was copied and pasted in the LoC by JS page. It's losing the italics. Compare the tone poems Spring Song and Tapiola with the sandbox. Can anyone figure out what's wrong? Also, the genre column appears to be displaying the cell bottom divider line too high, which throws off the grid aesthetic. E.g., Kullervo. Help? Sgvrfjs (talk) 19:33, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

Weird, the only way I can get the italics to work is if I place the double quotes INSIDE the lang template, which is precisely what Template:Lang#Formatting says NOT to do ... I did this for En saga and The Swan of Tuonela, as an example ... I don't want to go through the whole LoC of JS right not to change the other entries; an expert should look at this first. Sgvrfjs (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 19:51, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

Still not sure I understand why two are needed for catalog number, since as you said all works (except maybe a couple special cases which can be explained in the notes) are mutually exclusive. Just actually use "Op." or "JS" in each column, and the sorting issue is fixed. I suppose it's not the worst thing to have two, though. And yes, keeping premiere date and performer out of it is good -- perfectly fine info on the work's page but not really inherently related to the work of the composer, as it were (composition date, of course, is extremely important). And yes, all 'versions' made by the composer himself should be included in some fashion. It's extremely frustering trying to find this info for some composers sometimes....thankfully since BIS recorded EVERYTHING we know of, we can include everything. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 20:10, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

I have added two rows for piano works according to the style of the others. I couldn't find any reference to a work for orchestra, Impromptu based on Op. 5, Nos. 5 and 6, which was described in the piano works listed below, so I did not include that as a comment.Vanwaffle (talk) 18:18, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Here you go: [1] ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 06:14, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, hopefully I have done the citations correctly. I'll continue here as time allows. Vanwaffle (talk) 23:02, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

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"bis" and "ter" in Op. numbers....

Where did these come from? I've never seen any sources that use these. The linked works list doesn't, and I know Barnett doesn't. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 17:11, 27 November 2019 (UTC)