Talk:List of crest badges used by Scottish clan members

Not the greatest sources

A couple blazons are from not so great sources. But since they match up with the image of the crest badges on the Standing Council website, i think its ok if we use them for now. Dewar: image seems to match "issuant from a Crest-coronet Or of four (three visible) strawberry leaves, a dexter arm vambraced, brandishing a sword Proper, hilted and pommelled Or" [1]. Galbraith: image seems to match "A bear's head couped argent muzzled azure" and the motto "Ab obice suavoir" [2]. Young: image seems to match "A demi lion issuant gules, holding a sword proper" and the motto "Robore prudentia praestat" [3]. This one is a bit different - Macleod of Lewis. The Standing Council website doesn't list an image for this one. The Macleod Society of Scotland website describes the crest as "golden sun in splendour", and gives two possible mottoes "I birn quil I se" and "Luceo nonUro" [4]. Another website actually gives a blazon: "The sun in splendor, Proper" and the motto "I BIRN QUHIL I SE" [5]. I used this for the image for now.

The Standing Council website gives an image of the crest badge for Stewart of Appin, but it is the exact same image they use for Ramsay. I think someone messed up on this, because i can't find any reference of this crest/motto combo used for any Stewarts, just Ramsays. I think the crest badge is likely this one: "a unicorn's head argent armed Or" with the motto "quhidder will zie" [6], i've seen it illustrated more than a couple times.

MacDonald of Keppoch is another one that isn't pictured on the Standing Council website. The chief's arms are shown on his website, and his crest is "an eagle displayed Gules crowned of a ducal coronet Or" [7]. A couple websites show clan badges with a different crest though, like this one: "a dexter hand holding a cross crosslet, fitche Sable" and the motto "per mare per terras" [8]. The chief is a recently recognised one, so i think the web must be out-of-date. But i don't know which of the chiefs two mottoes should go in the crest badge.--Celtus (talk) 07:21, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

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Coloured Clan Badges

There are examples of some clan badges in colour, however this is improper as they are to be represented in monochrome. I have not looked at all the image files to see where the pictures are being employed, but it is easily assumed that they are all to show examples of a clan badge and thus still improperly displayed in colour. Could these be reviewed, and perhaps a simple grey-scaling would suffice if the licensing allows so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xanderliptak (talk • contribs) 06:31, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm not certain where this notion of crest badges only being rendered in monochrome came from but it is erroneous - this is proven by the blazons given for the crest badges themselves, as many of them use the heraldic term "Proper" which means that they are to be illustrated in their proper nartural color - if you remove the color from the crest then it is no longer "Proper" according to heraldic terminology; while others, such as the Bruce clan crest badge describe the crest being rendered in specific heraldic colors ("A lion stantant Azure armed and langued Gules"). Also for many years manufacturers of Scottish heraldic crest wall plaques who are "approved by the Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs" have been making and selling clan crests that are carved and painted in full heraldic colors. This "clan crests can only be shown in black and white" is quite frankly a load of bollocks.--Wyvren (talk) 19:23, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

it is mentioned in the article on Scottish Clan Crests. and cites this http://www.scotarmigers.net/pdfs/info-leaflet-2.pdf 67.176.160.47 (talk) 07:00, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

agree that http://www.scotarmigers.net/pdfs/info-leaflet-2.pdf is a good reference (better than the endless sites trying to market their wares). Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 17:07, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

discussion if to include the crest badges of branches

A discussion is taking place at WikiProject Clans of Scotland discussing matters relating to List of crest badges used by Scottish clan members. Notably if the list should include the crest badges of branches and other clan members or just list the badges of the chiefs and past chiefs of clans and Armigerous Clans Your Opinions are welcome thereto. Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 20:34, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

The argument put forward above on whether or not to include the crest badges of clan branches was never fully resolved. It was mentioned that with the creation of the List of Scottish clans page that this page has become somewhat obsolete. Seeing as it has been over a year since this was discussed and this page has not been removed, and until such time, it is only sensible to continue the page's use as it is described. The title is clearly "List of Crest Badges used by Scottish Clan Members". Many "clan branches" have their own varied crest badge given by Lord Lyon. These clan branches are undeniably clan members and hence according to title it only follows that their crest badge should be listed on this page. I shall henceforth be returning the badges of Possil and others to this page as they are indisputably the badges used by clan members. Yours ever --Craigenputtock (talk) 22:00, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

There's nothing sensible about adding to this list every crest badge from every branch of every clan. I think the title of the article is too broad. I don't think the idea was to list every crest badge of every armiger, or every possible crest badge a clan member can wear. It was to display, in one page, the crest badges derived from the chiefs, the ones clan members are encouraged to sport to show their family ties. The same ones presented on the Standing Council's website, many of which have been noted in books on clans for hundreds of years now. Those are the ones people are interested in. I think that this list should be redirected over to List of Scottish clans, because everything here is already covered over there - plus more. About the Campbells, Campbell of Airds listed Possil as one of about 250 Campbell lairds, and he put the family down as a branch of Glenorchy. The Campbell branches should go in the Campbell article, like how the Mackenzie and Munro branches are listed in their clan articles (at the moment we've got about 100 branches listed between those two clans).--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 07:03, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

agreed: redirect list to List of Scottish clans. All the information is covered thereto. Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 14:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I can see where you are coming from in your points here. It is subject to personal opinion as to whether the title is too broad - it may be an idea to eventually redesign the layout into categories. As it currently stands all the clan branch's crest badges should be included as that is what the page's purpose designates and it is where a reader would arrive to find crest badges used by both the chiefs and member branches. So for the moment, I suggest that we leave this page to include all members badges as it is specified and keep the the List of Scottish clans page as the filtered version.--Craigenputtock (talk) 14:04, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

It's too broad because the title makes it seem like all crest badges should be added. And why draw the line with Scottish heraldry? The title doesn't limit it to this, and clan members are also born and live in countries with legitimate heraldic authorities of their own. Here's a Canadian MacDonald with his own crest badge granted by the Canadian Crown [9]. In theory, the arms of every Scottish armiger represent his/her branch of the name/family. So there's no end, we can play word games on and on. The list was just never about single armigers or a multitude of branches. An example of how the title is too broad would be an hypothetical article on tartans. Like a list of tartans used by clan members. The real idea behind the list would be to show the tartans associated with the clans - clan tartans; the idea wouldn't be to list every last tartan that a clan member could wear, or has worn or used. So I think you are being too literal. This list ought to be redirected, because its the main one has superseded it, but that doesn't mean that you couldn't work on expanding the list of Campbell branches on the Clan Campbell article.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 10:33, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Merger proposal with List of Scottish clans

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

3 to 1 in favour of merging. And considering it is nearly entirely duplicated, a merge is appropriate. -- P 1 9 9  ✉ 20:44, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

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Please discuse hereto your opinions of if List of crest badges used by Scottish clan members should be merged or redirect to List of Scottish clans. Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 15:03, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I think it's notable and substantial enough to remain as a standalone article. SteveStrummer (talk) 08:29, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

I think the actual lists should be merged to avoid the editorial trouble of having two lists. Maintaining two long, near-identical lists (the only structural difference is the list of clans has information about the chief) is a sure way to duplicate effort, produce inconsistencies, and harbor hard-to-spot errors. Kai Carver (talk) 10:06, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm in favour of merging the two lists because a lot of the information is repeated on both lists.QuintusPetillius (talk) 19:42, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Merging the lists just seems to make the most sense. Why make it harder for future editors to update two lists (assuming the obvious that clan chiefs will change as current ones age and pass on)? If the info is essentially the same info for both, they should be combined for one stop shopping so to speak. This would make it easier for people wanting the information, in that they'd only need to consult one list, it would be less work on editors as previously stated, because having the same info duplicated can easily mean one list updates and the other doesn't. If that were the case, future users and editors would then have to sort out which was correct. The way I see it, looking at it from the POV of a user, if it is possible to have everything listed in one comprehensive list, it makes it easier on me. As an editor, it also makes maintaining the list easier. NO need to duplicate efforts. There are so many things editors could be doing instead of making the same update to two separate lists. This has been up for discussion since Sept. 2010. Granted, the discussion that has been open for nearly 3 yrs has gotten comments from a total of 4 people (counting myself), 3 of whom say merge, one who says do not merge. How long should this discussion remain open? I know we need a consensus on this, but there also probably ought to be a date where we say, ok, by this time we've had plenty of opportunity to discuss it, let's make a decision. This is just my opinion. I only found this because I was reading English and Scottish history and had gotten up to the Union of the Crowns under James VI & I. Then I got side tracked and was looking into tartans which led to looking at the history of clans. I occasionally have time on my hands where I just read historical articles that interest me and end up spending a bit of time link hopping on here so I read odd mixes of articles at times. This piqued my interest because it relates to my love of both history and genealogy really. WayneyP (talk) 03:37, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Translations?

The Clan with the Motto TIMOR OMNIS ABESTO has got a crest badge where it spells it OMMIS... Google does not recognise the word OMMIS and neither does any other translate service... Which one is wrong? Correct the image? --124.169.240.128 (talk) 04:03, 25 March 2012 (UTC)