Talk:List of historic buildings in Carmel-by-the-Sea

Notability of individual buildings

(moved from user talk) Your recent redirects e.g., for the Doud Building as "fails WP:N criteria" and removal of content because it is "highly questionable source," appears to be an urgent problem.

• How are you determing which ones to keep and which ones to redirect?
• Removal of content just because the source is from Arcadia Publishing seems unreasonable.
• Some recent discussion has already been covered on the Talk:The Tuck Box, on my user page, and at WP:ARCADIA.
• Arcadia Publishing is NOT listed on WP:RSP
• The discussion here: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 426 did not resolve anything.

I am willing to work with you on this. An alternative is to bring these incidents to WP:DRN or WP:ANI noticeboards. Greg Henderson (talk) 18:53, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

• The decision to keep or redirect is based on a straightforward assessment of WP:GNG. Many, if not most of them (including the Doud Building you are using as an example), were already tagged some time ago by other editors with {{notability}} which states If notability cannot be shown, the article is likely to be merged, redirected, or deleted.

• Questionable sources stay out of articles unless they can be proven reliable by those wishing to include it per WP:BURDEN, and there also needs to be editorial consensus per WP:ONUS.

• Just because a source isn't listed at RSP doesn't make it automatically reliable.

• In that RSN discussion you started, you failed to gain consensus that it is reliable in the way you seem to think it is.

• This is not an "urgent problem" because all of the content and sources from older versions can be retrieved from the redirect histories, and you can work on improving material in drafts and sandboxes. Nothing is permanently lost or damaged, and there's nothing that can't be resolved through normal talk page discussion like we are having here. Left guide (talk) 22:25, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Pinging Greghenderson2006 in case you didn't see this (forgot to add a ping in my first reply). Left guide (talk) 04:22, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

@Left guide: Thanks for your responses. It helps when understanding your viewpoints. It is frustrating to see articles that I spent so much time be deleted because an editor(s) decides it is not notable and deletes all the content with a redirect. At least I have the list of buildings as a representation of Carmel's historic district. Perhaps some day the district and/or some of the buildings will get on the national registry.

The other question is why don't you mark text that is from a unreliable source with the tag ? That way readers can see the information and have a "clue" that they can add this source. By removing it, you loose valuable information and the reader missing this and has no chance to improve the article unless they go through all the article's history. Do you understand this question? Greg Henderson (talk) 15:58, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

I do understand the question; it is unlikely in most cases that better sources exist for hyper-local material only cited to Arcadia. Also, most of us volunteers have limited time in working on these types of articles, which is why I've done a lot of those changes in such a bold fashion. I'm not opposed to merging some content into here from the former articles into the "notes" column, maybe a sentence or two summary that is well-sourced. That would be a much more WP:DUE presentation of this kind of material. Left guide (talk) 21:55, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, when you merge, please add the sentence or two as a summary that is well sourced. Or, I can do it through an edit request. Greg Henderson (talk) 23:06, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Edit Request - Add historic homes

• Under the Other Historic Buildings in Carmel section, add the following buildings:

Building name	Image	Street	Designer/architect	Style	Year constructed	Date listed/Notes
Stonehouse		Eighth Avenue and Monte Verde Street	Ben Turner	American Craftsman	1906	Stonehouse is a historic American Craftsman-style house built in 1906. In 1923, syndicated cartoonist Gene Byrnes acquired the home, which was converted into an inn in 1946.
Leroy Babcock House		Camino Real Street and Twelfth Avenue	Leroy Babcock	American Craftsman	1918	Leroy Babcock House is a American Craftsman-style house built by Leroy Babcock circa 1918 as his own residence.

References

Greg Henderson (talk) 21:41, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

 Done P,TO 19104 (talk) (contribs) 20:30, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Edit Request - Add building

• Under Other Historic Buildings in Carmel please add the following building:

Building name	Image	Street	Designer/architect	Style	Year constructed	Date listed/Notes
All Saints Episcopal Church		Dolores Street	Robert R. Jones	Modern architecture	1950	All Saints Episcopal Church is an Episcopal parish located in Carmel-by-the-Sea, California and part of the Episcopal Diocese of California. The church was initially established in 1907 by members of the Episcopal Church who held Sunday meetings at the Pine Inn. The church relocated first to what is now Carmel City Hall and later to Dolores Street.

References

Greg Henderson (talk) 19:49, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Why are you wikilinking the building name? Are you saying it's notable enough to merit its own article? Do you have any more references for it? McYeee (talk) 21:42, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

 Not done, non-notable building, now deleted. Source is marginal. Netherzone (talk) 23:32, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Two issues with this list

I've just added a maintenance tag for "Lead too short". Lead sections on list items should contain introductory material, not just state where the content was found. As is, it does not provide the reader with a summary intro, it just lists what was found on other websites.

Additionally, and more importantly, the list contain scores of unsourced non-wiki notable entries. I am of the opinion that these should be removed, and only the items with a WP article should remain.

Feedback from the community is requested. Netherzone (talk) 02:39, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Furthermore, I'm doubtful this page even meets WP:NLIST notability criteria. Left guide (talk) 02:44, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

I feel like this entire article could probably be selectively merged into a section on architecture in Carmel-by-the-Sea, California. It seems odd that there's barely any discussion on the city's architecture in that article. Somebodyidkfkdt (talk) 15:15, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

@Somebodyidkfkdt, Thank you for this observation and suggestion. I think your suggestion is a good one. FYI, this List article is part of a massive walled garden on non-or-marginally notable people, buildings and businesses associated with Carmel. The creator of the walled garden, Greghenderson2006, is now site-blocked after several ANI discussions (see his talk page and talk archives for more information and Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1163#Topic_Ban_or_Site_Block,_Greghenderson2006 ). The clean up began in earnest recently by a team of editors and will take a while complete. Please note that the entries sourced to Arcadia Press should probably be removed, multiple discussions on the Reliable Sources Noticeboard suggest that it is questionable or unreliable source. Pinging @Left guide, @Graywalls for their input. Netherzone (talk) 15:33, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

@Somebodyidkfkdt, I also want to thank you for helping out with the redirects. Your work is appreciated! Netherzone (talk) 16:49, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! Also, I could be mistaken, but looking through the RS/N archives, it seems like the general consensus about Arcadia is that its reliability should be decided on a case-by-case basis and that it's not unreliable as a whole? Dramov and Hudson might not be reliable, but I don't see why Carmel: A History in Architecture, written by a teacher of art and architectural history at Monterey Peninsula College and a former curator of the California Historical Society, wouldn't be reliable. Somebodyidkfkdt (talk) 23:55, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

@Somebodyidkfkdt: Thanks for helping out with ongoing cleanup. One recurring issue with these sources is that they are frequently indiscriminate sources so don't count towards notability; WP:IS#Indiscriminate sources says:

If a subject, such as a local business, is only mentioned in indiscriminate independent sources, then it does not qualify for a separate article on Wikipedia.

Another issue is conflicts of interest per WP:COISOURCE. Netherzone has done some thorough research recently on these sources and revealed conflicts of interest, and might be able to elaborate and explain better than I can. Mind you this doesn't even go into the habitual behavior of the banned editor in misrepresenting sources and applying original research/synthesis. Left guide (talk) 00:19, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

I could be wrong but the Carmel: A History in Architecture book doesn't seem all that indiscriminate, and I wasn't really talking about individual notability. Most of the entries in that book seem too short for GNG anyway. I was wondering if the source could be use to give examples of the different types of architecture in Carmel for the Carmel-by-the-Sea, California article. Somebodyidkfkdt (talk) 00:27, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Arcadia "Images of America" sold at a pharmacy waiting area near People Mag and National Inquirer, etc.

@Somebodyidkfkdt, you are being too generous. Re: Carmel: A History in Architecture, Images of America series by Arcadia Press, first of all it a picture book, the only text is the photo captions; secondly Arcadia Press churns these books out by the hundreds of locations in multiple "series", all written by locals - it is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a serious architectural or art history press, the likes of Princeton University Press or MIT press, or even Rizzoli. You can buy them at any tourist shop around the U.S., gift shops and other "high quality (not) booksellers" (sarcasm), for example like my local CVS drugstore (see pic.) in the pharmacy waiting area along with People Magazine and the National Inquirer and other junk. These books are not rigorous studies of their subjects, they are for hyper-locals interested in local history and for the tourist trade; it's coffee table clutter; thirdly, pretty much anyone can submit a manuscript, Arcadia is one step above a self-publishing company. fourth, their other series are things like "Spooky America", "Local Baby", "LoL jokes", "Creeps & Shrieks", "Haunted America", "Murder & Mayhem" - it's a PULP HISTORY press - the equivalent of the "History Channel". Not to be taken seriously. It's a junk press (sorry if that sounds condescending), but this is not a reliable source for an encyclopedia that should include only the highest quality of citations. Netherzone (talk) 00:47, 18 August 2024 (UTC) Formatting for emphasis only.

I see. Even if Arcadia was generally garbage, could the above book not qualify under WP:EXPERTSPS? It wouldn't be used for notability but just for giving examples of the city's architecture. Also, would it be worth trying to collect sources for a potential section on architecture? Somebodyidkfkdt (talk) 00:59, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

@Somebodyidkfkdt, unfortunately you stumbled into a very complicated situation involving article creations by an editor with a history of Conflict of Interest editing since 2007, and Undisclosed Paid Editing, as well as a history of using low quality sources, committing copyright violations or close paraphrasing, and often actually misrepresenting what the sources actually say to bolster up the notability of non-notable people, businesses or buildings. They have been site-blocked/banned, and we are in the process of cleaning up a huge mess, and several walled gardens. I wish this was not the case. It's been a gigantic time-sink for multiple editors, administrators and the community. It's entirely clear that you are here in good faith to try to improve the encyclopedia, however the overall situation is dauntingly complicated, I think more so than you may realize. Netherzone (talk) 01:11, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Also, is A tribute to yesterday : the history of Carmel, Carmel Valley, Big Sur, Point Lobos, Carmelite Monastery, and Los Burrosby Valley Publishers unreliable? I can't find any discussion on Valley Publishers. Somebodyidkfkdt (talk) 00:46, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Several of us could find nothing on this press, which probably means it is self-published. Netherzone (talk) 00:51, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Graywalls had identified some COI's with the authors from Arcadia (and possibly Valley? - can't remember) Netherzone (talk) 01:21, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps that was Lynn Momboisse's Carmel related voicemap.me MONETIZED walking tour being cited by Greg in some places. Greg had also cited Momboisse's Arcadia stuff, as well as https://carmelbytheseaca.blogspot.com/ Graywalls (talk) 02:35, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Ah yes, that was it. Also the Alissandra Dramov sources may have a COI since she is a Carmel Council member with political affiliations with the Golden Bough Playhouse, the Historical Society, and other Carmel businesses and development projects. Netherzone (talk) 02:51, 18 August 2024 (UTC)