Talk:List of homelessness organizations

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Jenks24 (talk) 15:27, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

---

List of organizations opposing homelessness → List of homelessness organizations – The current title is inaccurate and misleading. For one thing, opposing homelessness is not really what the organizations on this list do. Instead, some advocate for the rights of the homeless, some provide services, medical care and education to homeless people, some help them get jobs, others help them secure tenure on the land they occupy. Homelessness is not really something you actively oppose in the way one might oppose gay marriage or gun rights - instead it is a complex societal problem that has many causes and many potential solutions. There are certainly active debates on what to do about homelessness, and who should do it, but opposition is a very poor word to describe what these organizations do. If we have a list of orgs that oppose homelessness one might expect to find a list of organizations that promote or support homelessness, but I don't think such exists. Some of the categories in question are Category:Homelessness organizations and Category:Homelessness charities so List of homelessness organizations matches those categories and is more inclusive. The built-in assumption that the organizations which work on homelessness and issues of homeless people are all opposed to homelessness is a drastic oversimplification and misstates the mission of these orgs, so simplifying the title will make the list title more accurate. One final problem with this title is that another interpretation could make the list incredibly broad, because in general I would assume most organizations are somehow opposed to homelessness, it's not really something that many organizations aren't against in some way or another, in a passive sense of wanting it to end and perhaps donating funding or time towards that end. Relisted Calidum ^{Talk To Me} 05:03, 7 June 2014 (UTC) Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 05:05, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose For groups that seek to end a situation or advocate as a core part of their notability, we indicate what they advocate for. Category:Organizations that oppose same-sex marriage would not be better labelled "Marriage organizations". Organizations opposing human trafficking wouldn't be labelled "Human trafficking organizations" without a qualifier. The idea that all Wikipedia articles about people could be broadly added to the list by passively being against the idea of homelessness is a frivolous one as most articles don't mention homelessness at all, let alone in a defining way. The organizations on this list aren't seeking to promote a chosen nomad lifestyle, they are all opposed to non-voluntary homelessness. Their mission statements all include commitments to end homelessness or to actively provide temporary or permanent housing to the homeless. Opposing homelessness is really what the organizations on this list do.__ E L A Q U E A T E 11:10, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

I couldn't find a single mission statement that says "we are opposed to homelessness." It's a really bad word, and no comparison with same sex marriage as that is something you can be actively opposed to since whether to allow it or not is a societal choice (and many societies don't currently allow it, it's a legal right controlled by law, and very unlike homelessness (unless you're talking about making homelessness illegal). There's a huge difference between being opposed to something and being committed to end it - I can be committed to reduce human impact on climate change but that doesn't make me opposed to human impact on climate change. Instead if you read sources you find 'we are committed to support the rights of slumdwellers' or 'we are committed to bring our ministry to the homeless' or 'we are committed to providing good jobs to the urban poor' or, in some - but not all - cases 'we are committed to addressing the root causes of homelessness and trying to end it' etc. Opposition is, in my search of sources, never used to describe what these orgs do, so per commonname it's just a poor title. And, as you point out above, they may be philosophically opposed to 'non-voluntary homelessness' but some homelessness is voluntary, so are they opposed to those people? Or are they orgs that want to clean out the slums and rid the cities of panhandlers? That's another version of being opposed to it - perhaps they are opposed to the sight of homeless people? I'm sorry EQ but your argument simply doesn't hold water, I can't find any sources that call it 'opposed'. A simple title without this is more inclusive and much more accurate in its scope, since the orgs on this list (and more could be added) do much much more than sit around opposing homelessness.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 11:28, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

What about List of organizations assisting the homeless? "Assist" accurately describes what these organizations do. I agree that the primary function of the organizations is not opposition to homelessness, and that the term "opposed to homelessness" could be unfortunately misread as advocating making homelessness illegal -- in other words, as supporting the inhumane idea that those without homes should be imprisoned. Best wishes, Xoloz (talk) 16:55, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion. It's not bad, however it's also a bit too constrained; many organizations do directly assist the homeless, but others work on policy, financial, and structural issues that may not directly assist homeless people but which may result in fewer homeless people in the future, which is why I proposed the current more generic/broad name. But if there is consensus around "assist" I would support it.

For example, [1]] and [2] are examples of organizations that don't provide direct support to homeless people but who work at a policy/capacity/advocacy level. I fear with "assist" that such organizations would seemingly be left out.

I've been thinking some more, and another problem with "assist" (which applies to "oppose" as well) is the issue of agency - organizations such as Abahlali baseMjondolo and other slumdwellers/shack-dwellers organizations wouldn't really see themselves as "assisting" homeless people, nor "opposing" homelessness, but rather advocating vigorously for THEIR own rights and the rights of their communities, since they are created by and led by people who are from these communities - see their overview here which I quote: "Amongst other victories the Abahlali have democratised the governance of many settlements, stopped evictions in a number of settlements, won acces to schools, stopped the industrial development of the land promised to Kennedy Road, forced numerous government officials, offices and projects to ‘come down to the people’ and mounted vigorous challenges to the uncritical assumption of a right to lead the local struggles of the poor in the name of a privileged access to the 'global' (i.e Northern donors, academics and NGOs) that remains typical of most of the NGO based left." (emphasis mine) The issue of agency here is important and I should have covered it above.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:02, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Well, there are organizations that engage in human trafficking, so "Human trafficking organizations" would be ambiguous, or even read as referring to such organizations. By contrast, are there any organizations which favor or (consciously) promote homelessness? Consistency is important in article titles, so I don't necessarily support the proposal, but I don't see this as a very strong argument either. --BDD (talk) 17:58, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Not that I know of, no, which is why "homelessness" would work - indeed it's what we use for the categories.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:50, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Absolutely. Most people oppose homelessness. These organisations do more than that. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:48, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support As the now says, the scope of these organisations goes considerable beyond opposing homelessness. Perhaps more than anything else they focus on supporting and advocating for people who are homeless. Nobody is going to look at the proposed title and think that the organisations support or promote homelessness. Neljack (talk) 02:42, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.