Talk:List of men's footballers with 1,000 or more official appearances/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Sandy Jardine

As per the table in the article, it should be 950 (912+38). Paolotacchi (talk) 15:10, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Shilton / Bastock

I edited 'Paul Bastock' to 'Peter Shilton', thinking it was vandalism, and the stats seem to be Shilton's. However, I note there is a Paul Bastock, so somebody should add him to the list. Saccerzd (talk) 09:59, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Graham Alexander

According to his Wikipedia page, Alexander made 981 club and 40 international appearances, so he should be on this list .... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.148.38.178 (talk) 15:41, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

He is on the list from the beginning. Paolotacchi (talk) 12:04, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

Should junior international appearances be counted?

Just wondering if we could consider removing non-senior international appearances? It seems strange that under-15, under-16 international games are counted when we don’t consider junior club games at the same level.

As an example, I was looking at the current list and Ronaldo is likely to break into the top ten this season, knocking down Pat Jennings. Yet, 18 of Ronaldo’s appearances are junior internationals compared to only one of Pat Jennings.

Wouldn’t it be cleaner to just consider full senior professional games? Whiteabbeywords (talk) 09:32, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Hello, since the description talks about official football matches at all age levels, I agree with you it would make more sense the list to include official appearances with junior club matches, but I doubt these are somewhere recorded for most of the players (also, some may be only in paper), and, as far as I know, it's hard to find such stats for players who played before 2000, and probably impossible for them who played before 1990 (as things were very different before, e.g. internet was not as accessible as today) and probably even today in some clubs and/or in some countries (from those there are players in this list) they may not keep track of matches at national leagues for academies' levels, but, since there seem to be such stats for international levels, have been recorded ever since the U- national teams were created, and are considered for all players in the list (the U-15, et c. are not only for C. Ronaldo, but for all players who had such appearances), I don't see any problem in them being included, but I would find it very lacking if some players had under-youth levels club appearances and the rest not (probably the latter stands for the majority of the players in the list), so I think it's better as it is, i.e. with non-senior international appearances only (meaning these should be included as long as these are considered for all players and there are the proofs). By the way, I feel expressing that's only the way I see it, i.e. only my opinion-thesis on this matter... Nialarfatem (talk) 18:29, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Paul Bastock

Paul Bastock never played at professional, so why he is on the leaderboard ? Me too, I played thousands of matches in ninth division when I was U15. It's not a reason to write my name on leaderboard...

--JOGIROX (talk) 17:13, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

@JOGIROX:: Hello! This list was based on this, which, unfortunately, seems there to be a project abandoned since it hasn't been updated since 2009... fortunately, on Wikipedia it kept being updated and players not included there (because RSSSF isn't perfect) were added and others updated, along with new ones who made the list, and, as there, and also here, this has never been about appearances in professional level and matches against clubs that are semi-professional or amateur were also included (e.g. in cups), and, if it was to only be about appearances against professional clubs, then, in my opinion, it raises many issues, because, e.g., many clubs in state leagues of Brazil are professional only "in the papers" (out of 32 players in how the list is now 7 are from Brazil, which is almost 22% of the players), i.e. I can firmly claim that a Brazilian Serie D club is in the same level with an 8th league club in England (if we were to measure the power of the leagues when adding an appearance), and this list has always been for official appearances regardless if they are against amateur, semi-professional or professional clubs, because, from the beginning, appearances against non-professional clubs were included, so Paul Bastock can be in the list, and of course there may be other similar issues caused...

Also, to me, I must say that a competitive match is a competitive match regardless of the level, and the player will face an opponent of similar level, it's not like there is an advantage, e.g. like we count the goals and there is a player who could play in the English Premier League, but chooses to play in the 8th league just to score 8 goals per match (I doubt one would do that anyway, i.e. an English Premier League level player will play in the English Premier League), in which match the same rules are applied, it is also played in 90 minutes, extra time, with referees who follow the same rules with the referees in professional leagues, et c., et c., and of course there are data saved to prove the appearances or video proofs (by the way, I am always talking for official matches only), so the level makes no difference at all when counting appearances, because that's what we credit, and not the difficulty of the level of the match. An 8th league club will face an 8th league opponent is no different to them as it is to a top league club facing a top league club. Then, of course, if we wanted to count professionalism, we would have to add weights to the opponents and 1 appearance to be less or more than 1 (it would need a more scientific approach, with statistical analyses to determine the weights for the opponents).

Bottom line, I must say you should see this list merely as a way of information, to get to know footballers who reached such numbers, which are extraordinary, and be intrigued to learn more about them, and in no way as a competition, because in no way there is such a competition and, frankly, no footballer counts the matches he plays... if you used to play football, you know this ;-)

Finally, regarding Paul Bastock, he didn't have the numbers of appearances to be in the list on RSSSF's page cited before at the time it was abandoned, but about one and a half year later he would have been included...

Hope this helps! Cheers! Nialarfatem (talk) 14:24, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

I think there's definitely an issue in that every other player has stats on an independent database as a citation for their stats, while Paul Bastock doesn't. In fact, many of these appearance stats aren't backed up at all in any of the 4 sources provided. 00aa0 (talk) 16:42, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

@00aa0:: Hello! First, I must say that the known databases (DBs) are not enough to validate stats, and they lack information regarding even top players. For instance, you won't find any from the known DBs to have the stats that Pele has on the lists on Wikipedia. Only RSSSF and IFFHS are the ones who make official stats (they are the stats' feeders of FIFA by the way), and the problem with Bastock is that those haven't ever made a page on Bastock, at least yet (and from what I know), but I can assure you that if you dig deeply in Google's search engine to sites and news related to the lower English leagues, then you will get the information you think is missing from the references included, but, as I clarified before, I am repeating that his numbers aren't in known DBs doesn't mean at all there is an issue... it's possible these known DBs to not bother keeping information on players from lower leagues, apart from missing stats from famous footballers...

Also, since his competitive appearances "feats" are in the news in England and on reliable English sites, why would the Englishmen, who are generally reliable on such things, invent this when they already have a Shilton (who is English) on top? ;-)

Of course, I have no problem if we scrapped Bastock if that's the popular demand (majority vote), but then this would mean a lot of work, burden and bother, which isn't worth to be done, especially for one player, as, apart from the problem with the Brazilians (see what I wrote above to user JOGIROX), same applies to the English players in the list as well, actually I must say for the UK players, not only the Englishmen (12 out of 32, about 38% of the players, and it's 19 out of 32, about 60% if you include the Brazilians), since, due to having many cups in England (especially before, in the 70s, 80s, and even in the 90s), they have many matches against non-professional clubs included, as then "scrapping" Bastock would only make sense if all the matches against non-professional clubs from all players here were scrapped as well, so I think it's good the way it is...

Bottom line, what I said before to JOGIROX, i.e. do not see this as a competition, the ranking there is an illusory... it's there only to help keeping track, not to compare one footballer with each other from the list...

Hope this, along with what I wrote before to JOGIROX, elaborates on why I think Bastock deserves to be in the list!

Kind regards! Nialarfatem (talk) 14:24, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Unfortunately, these pages on Wikipedia are starting to lose any credibility because of this sort of addition. I'm not sure what's going on here with RSSSF. We now have doubtful attributions for most career appearances, most career goals and most international caps. BillyJones1000 (talk) 06:35, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes, it's not a competition, we all know if Ronaldo reach "just" 1200 matchs in professional career, it will be a big achievement (that will never be beaten in europeans footbal firsts leagues maybe ???)

--JOGIROX (talk) 16:27, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

I have removed Paul Bastock from the article as many of the appearances listed are not backed up by any of the sources provided, and the only user that was a proponent of this person being included has deleted their wikipedia account and has not replied to further comments on the talk page. Huge amounts of his data is missing from any database or report, and the numbers could've been plucked out of thin air as far as I'm concerned. Multiple people have questioned whether this player should've been included in the first place, to which a consensus was never reached. If anyone can provide full, valid sources that corroborate Bastock's full appearance statistics, they're welcome to add him back.

00aa0 (talk)

Different lists, also one for outfield players and one only for goalkeepers

Hello guys and gals!

Do you think it would be a good idea if we also made two other lists here, one only for goalkeepers and one only for outfield players, in addition to the one taking into account all footballers (the one there is now)?

I have added two references on the article on why goalkeepers have an advantage over the outfield players: in a nutshell, less contact less injuries, more years of career, more matches...

Also, the outfield only players list will bring CR7 on the 4th position, and would definitely decrease the bother from Cristiano Ronaldo's youngster fans who troll or cause trouble because their idol is 11th ;-)

Kind regards! Nialarfatem (talk) 14:41, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Hello,

I don't think goalkeepers have a big advantage instead of outfield players. Example: Buffon played "only" 40 matchs in national cups matchs because the second goalkeeper was on the field while Cristiano Ronaldo have almost 70 cups matchs (a year's championship in fact). A goalkeeper in big big team doesn't play all matchs (zubizarreta is counter-example it's true). At this moment, Cristiano have 36 matchs less than buffon but 7 years less, I think he is advantaged. In some clubs like real madrid or barcelona some coachs let a gk for champions league an another for championship.

Other example: in my mind Casillas would have reached 1000 matchs in club career if he was an outfield player (maybe donnarumma can reach this milestone if he continue to perform at this level but anyway the rotation between gk will slow it down later I think).

I hope Cristiano will reach 1000 matchs in club which is unbelievable at "top level" (roberto carlos for example with 1080 matchs but some with "little clubs". What is your opinion on Cristiano ? For me he can reach 1020-1030 matchs in club career but not anymore (and maybe 190 selections in nt)

Thanks !

--JOGIROX (talk) 16:24, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Hello!

I totally understand what you mean, because many times keepers are not used, e.g., for the cup matches, in the top clubs, even though your example of CR7 is not that representative, since he is an exception, and not the norm, so we couldn't use it to draw general conclusions: not many people play so many national matches at 35-36. I only suggested this, by the way, because I read articles related to that keepers having an advantage over outfield players, and of course because I noticed an imbalancement in the list: while the list is not overwhelmed by goalkeepers, the top 10 of it is: there are 7 goalkeepers there, which is certainly an imbalancement, but of course I have no problem at all with the way the list is at the moment...

Cheers!

Nialarfatem (talk) 08:48, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Fabio (Fábio Deivson Lopes Maciel)

Helo just curious about something regarding Fabio (Fábio Deivson Lopes Maciel) and his games for Cruzeiro. It says Official games only in the text at the top so to me it seems he has 895 Official games for Cruzeiro and not 901 games, hope for a reply on this here i have some links where i have it from: https://cruzeiropedia.org/F%C3%A1bio_Deivson_Lopes_Maciel#N.C3.BAmeros_hist.C3.B3ricos https://www.cruzeiro.com.br/noticia/show/18205/fabio-chega-a-marca-de-900-partidas-com-a-camisa-do-cruzeiro--fabio

best regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.234.134.192 (talk) 17:42, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Hello!

For everyone's information, I have removed the two matches listed with Brazil national under-15 football team, because the existing sources couldn't support this, and, also, because I failed to find a source claiming this. If one finds proof to corroborate he played 2 official matches with Brazil U15, feel free to add it back, including the source for proof.

Kind regards!

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 01:47, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Rogerio Ceni

Regarding the games he played for "Sinop" it says that he played 20 games with ref. but could that include "friendlies" also because i have an other ref. here: http://ge.globo.com/futebol/times/sao-paulo/noticia/2015/12/sinop-o-banco-o-acordo-e-os-39-dias-que-mudaram-vida-de-rogerio-ceni.html where it says that he played 12 games in the 39 days he was playing since the first and second keeper where injured so just feel free to comment on this...

best regards

Bakermannn (talk) 20:19, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

@Bakermannn:

Hello!

First, I must say I am not the one who added that he played 20 matches for Sinop, someone else had done so long time ago (it's been like this for years), but I added the link because the existing references didn't say anything about his matches with Sinop and was the only source I found at that time that claimed him having played 20 matches, but there is still room for search. Yes, that reference could include friendlies, but could as well not include friendlies: we have to assume good faith and for now not change it to 12, to look for more sources that support the 20 official matches... if there aren't any, then we can make it 12 instead of 20... I though did remove the 2 matches Fábio had with Brazil U15 because for that I looked for sources extensively and there was no support found...

You are right about the 12 matches, even though the article has a mistake: if I understand it properly (it's the one on his WP Portuguese article as well, and had seen it before), it says he made his debut in the match vs. Cáceres (1-1), which was on 15 April and then says that 12 games were played between 19 April and 27 May, which is wrong (see RSSSF's hyperlink before) as that period Sinop played 11 games, but it's 12 including the one vs. Cáceres, and of course assuming he played in all of them, since the other two goalkeepers were not available, and that the article talks about only the Campeonato Matogrossense 1990 (he could have played one more match on some other tournament or a friendly match).

So, to conclude, I suggest for now we leave it 20 and look for sources that can back 8 more official matches... if we find no other, we can make it 12...

Thanks!

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 02:49, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Hello again!

The best source I could find is this, which claims more clearly that he only played 12 professional matches for Sinop, so I have to propose we change it to 12 and whoever put 20 in the first place is free to change it back, including a source this time (and of course only a reliable source). After all, the change, apart from the edit history, will also be mentioned and discussed in the talk page. What do you say?

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 03:04, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

hello!

Again thank you so much for your "input" on so many diff. things (example with homepage of clubs it could be matches missing with preliminary rounds because of stats++) and all the other things so i am learning. I also think we should change it to 12 games especially with this source you found where we also get a list of the games so my openion is to change it to 12 games and like you sad if we or somebody else can make a ref. with the other 8 games as "official" then we must maybe reconsider.

PS: hope you check out the reply on Roberto carlos also :)

Best regards

Bakermannn (talk) 12:53, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Roberto Carlos

Hello!

For everyone's information, I have made some changes (references included) on Roberto Carlos that raised his tally by 9.

If there are any objections, feel free to express them...

Kind regards!

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 22:30, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Helo and thank you so much for the response in the previous subject regarding annulled games and Iniesta i hope for a reply on this subject also. In the resent edit of "Roberto Carlos" there is something i would like to mention and debate and hope for response. While "ogol" (playmakerstats) is mostly a very reliable source i have seen a few mistakes when some "friendly" matches have made their stats and i think that the source https://www.footballdatabase.eu/fr/joueur/details/419--roberto_carlos is correct here and i have made two topics to back it up.

TOPIC 1 games for Atlético Mineiro: To get sources for Brazil players when they played in Brazil i try to search for sources in Portuguese language also because it may be some very good sources there and i translate them to english. I see that on "ogol" it says 3 games but it also says "Sem Competição Definida" which means "no competition defined" on the 3 games and the reason is that Roberto carlos made 3 games for Atlético Mineiro but they very "friendlies" in a tour in Spain and Italy so the games he played was against Lleida, Logroñes and Athletic Bilbao and should not be in the list because they are not "official". Here i have some sources in Portuguese: https://www.torcedores.com/noticias/2020/04/roberto-carlos-grato-atletico-mg -- https://www.hojeemdia.com.br/esportes/jogar-no-atl%C3%A9tico-foi-uma-linda-experi%C3%AAncia-diz-roberto-carlos-no-papo-em-dia-1.705565 -- https://www.superesportes.com.br/app/1,9/2015/06/18/noticia_atletico_mg,312827/apesar-de-curta-passagem-roberto-carlos-mostra-gratidao-ao-galo-em-retrospectiva.shtml -- https://www.ocuriosodofutebol.com.br/2017/07/a-curta-passagem-de-roberto-carlos-pelo.html -- I mean why would all these sources and others write this if it was not the case. As a conclusion i think the 3 games should not be included in the list since they are "friendlies" what do you think?

TOPIC 2 games for anzhi makhachkala: I see that you have changed it from 28 games to 33 games but i think the correct number is 28 "official" games and here is why. For the 2010-11 russian cup "ogol" and this source (https://www.worldfootball.net/report/kubok-2010-2011-achtelfinale-anzhi-makhachkala-zenit-st-petersburg/) they have that he played 1 game so then we have 1 game for 2010-11 season. For the season 2011-12 i actually went to the Anzhi own homepage (http://www.fc-anji.ru/matchs/first/2011-2012/) then translated to english and looked at the premier league first and went thru every game (translated) to see if Roberto carlos had played or not and i counted 25 games in the league which is also backed up with this reliable source (https://www.worldfootball.net/player_summary/roberto-carlos/rus-premier-liga-2011-2012/anzhi-makhachkala/3/) so then we have 1+25=26 games. Then i looked at the russian cup for the 2011-12 season in the anzhi homepage where they played 2 games and he played in them both so then we have 1+25+2=28 games in TOTAL. So the diff. we have is 33-28=5 games and i think i know the answer because finally i looked thru the friendly games in the anzhi homepage for season 2011-12 and he played in 5 of them so there i think you go again some friendlies have come into the "ogol" stats. CONCLUSION for me is that when we have the 1 cup game in 2010-11 and for season 2011-12 both "worldfootball" which is a very reliable source and what should count the most (my opinion) is when it get a "backup" ​from the "anzhi own homepage" also i think that "validate" more than the "ogol" page this time since "ogol" have 10 games where it says "Sem Competição Definida" (no competition defined) where it seems they have the 3 missing league games (25-22=3), 2 cup games and 5 friendlies games included what do you think validate most? Finally i just want to show this wikipedia link "not" as a source but as list of his games for Anzhi as i have explained now with sources:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2%80%9312_FC_Anzhi_Makhachkala_season#Appearances_and_goals

Note: roberto carlos did not play in the Premier Liga 2011/2012 Championship rounds for Anzhi according to "anzhi own homepage" and this reliable source: https://www.worldfootball.net/team_performance/anzhi-makhachkala/rus-premier-liga-2011-2012-meisterschaft/ (his name is in the bottom of the players). I also would like to add a small thing that if you look at this link https://www.ogol.com.br/player_results.php?id=1010&epoca_id=141&ps=1 you see under "Sem Competição Definida" it says he scored 1 goal and that would match 1 of the russian cup games where he scored with this link from the "anzhi homepage" http://www.fc-anji.ru/match/75/review/

Best regards ​ Bakermannn (talk) 03:39, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

@Bakermannn: Hello!

In a nutshell, I agree with your points, even though there are some issues that couldn't be resolved...

TOPIC 1 - Games for Atlético Mineiro

Before anything, I have to say I understand Portuguese even though I don't speak it (I speak English and Spanish in a very good level, and have been exposed to Italian and Romanian for years, so I can understand other of Romance origin languages, such as Portuguese and French) and this is why I also see the Portuguese sources... now, we can see that he played 3 matches in his WP article, but at that time I was missing a good, reliable reference claiming those weren't official, and then I found this (the tournament listed in the friendly tournaments in RSSSF's site) (it's the Trofeo Ciutat de Lleida 1987-2010: the results can be seen here) and also your links-articles where that tournament is mentioned as friendly (e.g. "emprestado ao clube mineiro para três amistosos na Europa"), and some various other Portuguese language found on the web, so yes, we have to remove these three games, even though both oGol and footballDatabase.eu include them, since these can't be supported by other sources. footballDatabase says 4 and oGol 3, but I have to give more importance to oGol when it comes to Brazilian teams statistics, so I think what is the most likely scenario (supported by other sites) it's he played 3 friendly matches.

I have to add here that "sem competição definida" doesn't mean friendly matches, but there are many times official tournaments (like some regional ones) that the database doesn't have a variable name defined for, i.e. it's somehow the default for them missing from the tournaments' list, which is the case for many youth leagues-tournaments, and oGol is by far the top database for Brazilian players and especially Brazilian teams stats, so this is why I was looking for sources, but I found the same with you, and I agree that we have to remove these 3 matches. Now, if in the future someone can find an old source claiming that it had been an official youth tournament at the time played is free to add them back with a reference, as, as I have previously said, to me matters the level of a match when it was played, because we can't follow the whims of FAs, FIFA or CONMEBOL that promote and demote matches after even twenty years... what I mean is: if FIFA mentions in their new articles-stats an old friendly tournament as official, we can't do the same, or vice versa (if they demote a tournament), but what matters (what should matter) is if it was friendly or official the time played...

By the way, it's funny that the the Spanish counterpart claims not only 3, but that he played 35 official matches for Atlético Mineiro, but then this can't be supported by any source I found, and also the Spanish list has weird sources, like this, which, for instance, includes Fabio's friendlies he had with Cruzeiro as official: minus those you get to the real number... seeing that, I tried to find sources for the claim, but I didn't find any. Probably those have been friendly matches.

TOPIC 2 - Games for Anzhi

This case, unfortunately, is even more complicated, but my conclusions are also the same as yours. This is his log with Anzhi, archived, coming from his WP article, which does indeed say 28 matches but, unfortunately, many times official sites of clubs don't include matches not played during the regular seasons (such as preliminary cup matches, play-off and play-out matches), and they do that for statistics-comparison reasons, so I was trying to find out why fBref claims 29 matches (which is something backed by oGol, "sem competição definida" in oGol could mean matches played in the play-offs), but I didn't find any source to back this up, instead I found this, which says Robbie didn't play in the last three months of the season and, also, that the fBref source, which usually is very reliable (more than most sites, because they even include details in the appearances), has a huge gap by not having a log for the matches with Anzhi: you can see that in the last column, the one named "Matches", where there is no log, while there is one on other leagues. Now, he could may well have played those more matches perhaps in an official regional tournament (one in Dagestan) or even in an interstational one (among clubs from Sovietic countries, as such tournaments often happen) of official character, but without source we can't assume anything. Unfortunately, I don't understand Russian, so my look in sources is limited here. If someone who understands Russian can find proof for 4 or 5 more official matches, feel free to do the change. For now, because of lacking back-up, I totally agree we have to change it back to 28.

PS I: Sorry for these changes, they were naive: I first did the changes and then the search...

PS II: I could easily say WorldFootball and RSSSF are the best sites for statistics on the web... I actually had done some work for WorldFootball in the past, we are talking about many years ago, yet we have to be careful and look for other sources as well, because even them make mistakes, e.g. Copa MX in WorldFootball says Reforma won the first cup, while Pachuca did (matches and results here).

Best regards!

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 01:41, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Hello i just want to test something with you. In relation to the "footballDatabase says 4" as you said with this link: https://www.footballdatabase.eu/fr/joueur/details/419--roberto_carlos it says 4 games in the 1992 season in the atletico mineiro "line" but i think (i am maybe wrong) the games was played for the Brazil national team and not for Atletico Mineiro because if you take those 4 games together with the 3 games in 1992 "line" for União São João you get to 7 games which would match the 7 games he played in total for 1992 according to this wikipedia cite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Carlos#International If you also look at the total games in the "Internacional" column it says 125 games which would also match his number of games for the Brazil national team what do you think?

best regards

Bakermannn (talk) 12:42, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Hello!

Yes, you are right... I was once more (it happened with Iniesta as well) confused with that column, and that's because of the layout, as by habit I see rows and all the rows have club names, but I promise to be more careful in the future...

Thanks!

Cheers!

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 13:48, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Zubizarreta

@D4ve19:

Hello!

Regarding this edit

First, regarding the claim that 4 appearances for Alavés seem to have been fabricated as there is no record of this, I must say the record is this, which was already included as ref in the list, by the editor who had made the change-addition of these 4 matches, so please find proof those matches were wrongfully attributed to him before claiming so.

And now, regarding the 23 matches with Spain U23, the reference for this is this, and RSSSF is considered a reliable source, while WP isn't. That said, if you can find proof from reliable sources that all or most of these matches were wrongfully attributed, feel free to include them and make the according changes.

Thanks!

Kind regards!

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 23:52, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Messi

Messi will be in this list later this year, as this list includes all age levels. He has now 778 club and 147 national team matches, but also 6 U-23, 18 U-20, 23 Barca B and 10 Barca C matches, in total: 982 matches. Kahkonen (talk) 07:25, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Hello! What you say is correct, i.e. he has 982 official appearances at the moment, and I will be on the alert for the time he gets to 1K, so no worries, he will be added once he "hits" 1000, but you could of course also add him yourself if he's omitted. Thanks for the heads-up. Cheers! Nialarfatem (talk) 03:10, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

@Kahkonen: Hello! For your information, I have added Messi (with references) on the list, but for now as hided (with 997 matches, 3 shy of 1000), so I would like to ask if you also get 997 in total from the sources/sites... Kind regards! Lorry Gundersen (talk) 23:49, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Messi and Iniesta

Helo topic 1: first i would like to mention that like Messi is mentioned in the section above according to my understanding Andres Iniesta is on 996 (Barca b 54 - barca 674 - vissel 92 - spain 131 - spain u21 18 - spain u20 7 - spain u19 7 - spain u17 4 - spain u16 7 - spain u15 2) games in total as of this moment and are closing in so is this the understanding of others to? And he also have 2 games for Catalonia should they be included or not since it will make him 998 games as of this moment?

topic 2: Here is a list of official games for Messi in the youth (https://www.fcbarcelona.fr/fr/football/equipe-premiere/news/1692969/all-time-stats-for-messi-in-the-bara-youth-teams) but they shall not be included since they are not included for others or?

hope for reply

Hello Bakermannn!

Topic 1

First, if the player doesn't yet have at least 1000 matches (like Messi), we don't include him on the list since the list was made an at least 1000 matches condition by ItsKesha in April and was, obviously, accepted by all the other editors. However, my count for Iniesta is 1004 matches at the moment and not 996, because he has 100 with Vissel Kobe instead of 92 (see FootballDatabase.eu source here, which was one of the two sources for his numbers when the list was an at least 900 matches list, the other being the French WorldFootball), and is good enough for me (coming from a reliable source), so, if this stands for the other editors as well, then we should add him on the list with 1004 matches.

Second and final on this topic, regarding the matches with Catalonia's team, I must say both FIFA and UEFA don't recognize the matches of Catalonia's national football team, it's kinda like a regional team to them and, like all non-FIFA national teams, their matches are unofficial friendlies and that automatically doesn't make them eligible to be on this list. However, if we don't stick to the rule that a match should be recognized by FIFA or the continental confederation (in the example it's UEFA, but it could be any other, CONMEBOL, CONCACAF et c.), then we could include these matches, because, at least to my understanding, (I) e.g. CONIFA European Football Cup and CONIFA World Football Cup are official tournaments under CONIFA (Football at the Island Games is also official, even though the "national teams" are regional and CONIFA ones) and (II) I strongly believe that also the friendly matches of "national teams" like Catalonia against all opponents (FIFA or non-FIFA, UEFA or non-UEFA et c.) are also dealt in an official manner (like are FIFA recognized national teams friendlies, which are considered as official ones), so that is why I believe we should include these. Also, another reason (III) is that, for instance, Catalunya Cup is official, so why not the matches of an Catalunyan team? Obviously not as a national team, because then you have political conflicts and confederations better avoid these, but at least as a regional level I don't see why not their matches to not be included. Then, in case someone raises this up, (reason IV) as it is obvious most CONIFA teams are of very low level, I must say this isn't a question since the list questions whether a match is official or not regardless of the level of the match, so the level of these matches plays no role. But what is the opinion of others? Do you think we should make a new section to vote if they should be included or not? By the way, until now this issue hasn't ever been addressed before and these matches haven't ever been considered before (e.g. Andoni Zubizarreta's 4 matches with Basque Country are not included), but (reason V) these numbers (matches and goals) are important in WP terms since they are included in the infobox, which is another reason why I think they should be included in the list... hope my points are clear here.

Topic 2

I added ...regarding junior levels, only the matches with national teams are counted, because such data for club levels cannot be found for the majority of the players... in the article's intro some time ago because this was implied, but had never been added in the article, and it's true, i.e. for the majority of the players the numbers you have for U17, U16,.... club level do not exist, so I think it would be totally unfair if we added these matches, because such stats weren't written most likely before 1995 or 1990. In other words, I think it's fairer without them, so I disagree in a potential addition. Also, even in case we had such stats for all players (which is impossible), then we would still not include them since these matches are not important in WP terms: we do not include them in a footballer's bio article and we don't include them in the infobox, so it's a straightforward no from me in this case. What do other editors think about this?

Hope this helps!

Cheers! Nialarfatem

P.S. Please don't forget to sign your comments by typing four consecutive tildes (~).

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 12:50, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Hello again!

As I have just noticed that 15 out of the 31 players in the list have FootballDatabase.eu as source (somehow I had totally forgotten this), I can safely conclude we (i.e. I am including the rest people who curate this article as well) consider it safe and reliable, so I am adding Iniesta with 100 matches for Kobe (and 1,004 overall).

If someone has objections to this, please feel free to revert it or correct it if the count stays >=1,000 after the corrections, but please do so only after adding argumentation and/or proof(s) in the talk page. Thanks!

Kind regards!

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 13:19, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Hello again!

I made a mistake yesterday: the FootballDatabase.eu source is not Vissel Kobe only, but the fourth column (6 matches, 0 goals in 2018) is about international numbers (with Spain's national team), so he has 998 overall... I will correct it in the article and keep it hided so to be easier to be added once he gets to 1000, after 2 more matches...

Sorry!

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 05:44, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Helo

Thanks for responses and explanations and it looked like the 6 games in International in 2018 was for Spain for me also. Just one question more: It says on this site (see FootballDatabase.eu source here, that Iniesta has 7 games in the 2020 season in Continental category but they have included 1 game which is annulled according to this source - https://www.worldfootball.net/player_summary/iniesta/afc-champions-league-2020_2/vissel-kobe/3/ and they also have 7 games. This source here = https://www.playmakerstats.com/player_results.php?id=762&competicao_id=159&epoca_id=149 they have 6 games so do not include this game so my question is should a annulled game be included on the list or not i mean in referrence to Romario mentioned at the bottom where annulled matches is not included so that Romario would be on the list.

Hope for reply best regards

Bakermannn (talk) 22:54, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

@Bakermannn: Hello!

First, before responding to the question if an annulled game should be included or not, I feel it's necessary reminding that "encyclopedia" (en=inside/within, +cycle, +paedia=knowledge and learning) means "all the knowledge around-surrounding something", and, because of that, what makes the most sense is an article to include the most sources possible, i.e. the most databases (DBs) and statistical sites-sources possible, without drawing conclusions (the reader must make his/her own conclusions), so makes totally sense in encyclopedia terms the annulled matches to be also included, obviously after noting that there are annulled (by the way, I will add a note to Iniesta for the match in question).

Then, as Wikipedia (WP) is an encyclopedia based on a community consensus, there are some DBs considered more reliable than others: FootballDatabase.eu and WorldFootball must be said they are among the most trusted ones (not saying though they don't make mistakes) and the principles of statistical gatherings of RSSSF are top when it comes to statistical gatherings, so we can use them as the best sources available.

Now, before the list was made for 1000 or more matches only, Romário was in the list with 994 matches, and then he was gone, so I had added that note in the trivia to remind me to add him later, but I forgot to do it... though I realized the issue wasn't the annulled matches, but the 6 matches he had with select teams (Rio de Janeiro state and Brazil selects teams), which are matches we haven't included to other players (this is obviously related to the Catalunya case): these are official according to RSSSF, which means there is at least a Football Association (FA) having counted them as official, in this case it's Brazil's... as WP is based on a community consensus, we could decide by majority vote whether such matches could be included or not: my thesis, as said before, is to be included. Besides, in WP we must take into account all reliable sources and if there are sources that list them as official, it means they were executed with all the conditions of an official match. The list isn't FIFA recognized official matches only (unless we decide it to be), or AFC/UEFA et c. recognized matches only, or specific FA recognized matches only (without being recognized as official by FIFA or/and CONMEBOL et c. accordingly). Then, apart from all said before, we must check if such matches (state and national selects considered as official by at least one FA, e.g. Andalusia team, Catalunya team, Sao Paulo team et c.) can be traced for all the players as, if they do, then it would also be fair to be included, apart from kosher (having the required level).

Coming back now to when an annulled match should be counted and when not, there is no specific answer here, as it clearly depends on the conditions the match was annulled: for instance, some cases I can think of right now are (there are probably many other scenarios):

- an official match should count only if all 90 minutes are played (+additional time, extra time, penalties when needed), so 1) if the match never concludes (e.g. gets interrupted before the 90 minutes are played, due to riots et c., and then it never ends, e.g. gets awarded to the the team not responsible for the riots), it shouldn't count in the tally since, under the rules, a legal football match is played at least 90 minutes, 2) if an interrupted match (e.g. usually due to weather conditions, light power failure et c.) finishes later by having the remaining minutes played later, then it should count.

- if an official match concludes and then doesn't count/gets cancelled, whether we should count it or not depends on the reason it was annulled: e.g. 1) if the match was annulled and awarded 3-0 because there was one more substitute made (referees didn't realize that and the match concluded) or one player who had no right to play played (e.g. one who had received a red card in the previous match) and referees didn't realize that, I don't find any fault in any of the players of the team, so I would include that in the official matches he played, regardless that the match got annulled, 2) if the match was annulled because of illegal activities, e.g. bribes, again whether it should count or not is related to what fault the player has: e.g. if the bribe isn't related to the player in question, I don't see why not to be counted: when he played the match, he played it as an official one, but if he has fault we could easily not count it as played: the match wasn't conducted legally for the player in question, so it shouldn't be counted as such for him, but it should for the rest players who had no fault in the later cancellation of the match. Another case could be if a match was cancelled after due to bribe to the manager and not to any of the players, so the players have no fault here and played the match legally, i.e. it should be counted in their tally regardless the fact it got later cancelled.

Finally, as this not questioned but it's related, I will like adding that we only consider matches that were performed under conditions of official matches and were considered as official when played, regardless if they get downgraded in level later: for example, for some reason only FIFA knows they stopped recognizing as official two matches with Argentina for Zanetti (they recognize 143), while they did before, but the Argentinean FA still recognizes 145 as official, so we sitll have 145... simply put, when the matches were played, they were played as official ones ("friendlies" within the FIFA calendar, so considered official), regardless if this later changed. Iniesta's case is pretty much the same, but it's not because that match got downgraded in level, but because Johor Darul Ta'zim couldn't play the 4 remaining group matches (due to COVID-19), so AFC had to "cancell" (actually, to not consider) the 2 matches they played, but their matches were legally concluded and played under terms that made them official when played, so I myself, like the two of the most reliable football DBs we have, don't also find a reason this match to not be included (obviously, we will add a note to it). Also, Iniesta has no fault/any wrongdoing for the fact the match was later annulled. By the way, you can see here in the section LIVE that the match concluded normally.

Also, common sense: I am pretty sure if you ask someone who follows Iniesta and/or Vissel Kobe how many matches Iniesta played in AFC Champions League in 2020, (s)he will answer 7, and probably then explain that one didn't count due to external reasons, but this doesn't annul the fact he played 7 matches... when things get complicated, the best solution is to think simply...

P.S. Hope this clarifies some things, or at least to not make them more complicated ;) sorry for the long reply...

Best regards!

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 15:12, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

@Bakermannn: Hello! For your information, I have added Messi (with references) on the list, but for now as hided (with 997 matches, 3 shy of 1000), so I would like to ask if you also get 997 in total from the sources/sites... Kind regards! Lorry Gundersen (talk) 23:47, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Hello yes i do have 997 games here is my list: (Barca C - 10, Barca B - 22, Barca - 778, PSG - 8, Argentina - 156, Argentina U23 - 5, Argentina U20 - 18) and i also have 782 goals (Barca C - 5, Barca B - 6, Barca - 672, PSG - 3, Argentina - 80, Argentina U23 - 2, Argentina U20 - 14)

Best regards!

Bakermannn (talk) 01:34, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Xavi

Why Xavi has 779 matchs played with barca now ? It's commonly knows that he played 767 matchs and later he was beaten by messi in 2021 who has 778

I have this source https://www.playmakerstats.com/jogador.php?id=768&search=1 ans this one https://www.fcbarcelona.com/en/football/first-team/news/2328587/xavi-hernandez-is-the-new-fc-barcelona-coach from the club himself

--JOGIROX (talk) 10:42, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Hello! Check the first reference next to his references on the list, which is also coming from Barcelona's site. Also, the why is explained in details here and yesterday was also added in the talk page of his article. Kind regards! Lorry Gundersen (talk) 10:16, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Ok, so Messi have some appearances in Catalunya Cup too ? Or they already have been added to his stats by statisticians ? JOGIROX (talk) 17:56, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Messi doesn't appear to have played in the Super/Copa Catalunya. Crowsus (talk) 19:44, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Javier Zanetti

Hello!

For everyone's information, Zanetti played 13 matches for Argentina U23, not 12, and the explanation follows...

His 12, already in the list, matches for Argentina U23 are 6 in the 1996 Olympics (RSSSF source here where the lineups can be seen) and 6 in the 1995 Panamerican Games (RSSSF source with lineups here), where it must be said that Argentina sent their U23 national team, while until 1995 the tournament allowed senior national teams, which can be confirmed by "El Gráfico" (see here – it's in Spanish). However, if you see his "International stats" in his 11v11 profile (hyperlink here), you will see him playing in something called "Copa Mercosur" in 1994–95, which Copa Mercosur in RSSSF is covered (see here), where it says the semi-final was played with the national teams that played in the Panamerican Games, i.e. the Argentina U23, while the final was played with the U20 teams, which semi-final makes the +1 for the U23 national team. In addition, there is also a video proof on YouTube for that match where Zanetti can be seen playing (direct link here), where in the title "Under-23" is also visible, and makes the +1 here crystal clear. In addition, I even checked if that match in Copa Mercosur was attributed to the senior team, but it isn't: RSSSF link here, which shows that it isn't in the 145 (143+2, as explained there below) matches with the senior team.

Additionally, I would like to add that the best statistical source I could find for his numbers for Banfield (66) is this, which will be used in the refs, in lack of other better ones, but it must be highlighted this source has him with 861 matches for Inter instead of 858, as it wrongly includes 3 matches more, in which Cristiano Zanetti played instead of Javier Zanetti (this has been checked and confirmed by other DBs available on the web, videos, newspapers, specifically the report of those matches from "La Repubblica", and of course by the official website of Inter).

Kind regards!

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 12:59, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Shilton

Hello!

For everyone's information, his profile in oGol (it's a hyperlink, i.e. it's clickable) claims 349 matches instead of 348 for Leicester City, but this not only cannot be crossed with all other available sources online, but it is also not confirmed from them as well.

Kind regards!

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 00:18, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

Hello again!

I would like to add here that this extra match, which is this, not only includes a different lineup than that from ENFA's site for that match, where Shilton isn't in it (11v11 direct link here), but it also looks as a mistake, as it includes in its lineup of the eleven players that played both Peter Shilton and Gordon Banks, and there is nothing that can be found online about either Shilton or Banks playing as an outfield player in 1967, and I think it would be known if one of them had played as outfield player for a match in 1967.

Kind regards!

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 00:40, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Marcelinho Paraíba

Hello!

For everyone's information, I couldn't find any reference on Marcelinho Paraíba for any number of appearances for Campinense (the list has 16) and for Paraguaçuense I only found a source about 29 (8 goals) instead of 34 (see here), even though there is a source claiming he scored 11 goals there (see here) in many extensive and exhaustive searches, so, in the absence of any kind of support (news, books, sites, photos, et c.), I will reduce his numbers by 21 (16+5) with '+' added to his appearances and goals (the total will go to 1,058+). Obviously he played for Campinense, as there are many general info that he excelled there and won two Campeonato Paraibano (one in 1991 and one in 1993) and may have additional matches for Paraguaçuense, but it's a wonder where this 16 is coming from, seems as wherever the source was before it has now disappeared from the internet. If anyone can provide (a) reliable source(s) for a number of matches for Campinense and/or for more matches for Paraguaçuense, to feel free to make the according changes, on the condition of including the source(s). Thanks!

Kind regards!

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 03:45, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Some inaccuracies in the apps counting

Hello, I had made some changes to the article that were reverted (even though they were all referenced) which bring the official appearance numbers of these following players:

• Fabio has 976 apps by Cruzeiro, not 955. 21 friendly matches are being disregarded.
  • References: [1], [2] [3]
• Rogério Ceni has 1237 apps by São Paulo, not 1197
  • References: 4, 5, 6, 7
• Marcelinho Paraiba has 210 apps by São Paulo, not 202
  • Reference: 8

If missing matches are knowingly disregarded, this should be stated somewhere in the article to avoid confusion. Svartner (talk) 21:46, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Hello Svartner!

As stated clearly in the intro of the article and as stated (also clearly) in the edit summary of the reverts, the list is ONLY about official matches. Your changes included friendlies, so they were rightly reverted.

Kind regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 04:51, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Hello again. Practically all of these friendly matches are duly documented, as they are footballers who played in the late 20th/early 21st century, I really don't think it's right for them to be excluded, mainly because of the criteria that considers youth level international competitions. I won't make any edits that go against the established rules but in my view, if there is documentation of the games, and they were in the rules established by FIFA, they should be valid. Svartner (talk) 04:57, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

I actually agree with this...

As I have expressed before elsewhere, I am under the belief that all friendly matches before 1995 should be given the same level (of significance) with the official matches and then several new players could be added* on the list, but I know for a fact other people won't agree to this, i.e. a consensus to this cannot be reached, but, if you believe there is a chance, you could bring it up to WT:FOOTY. If you do, you'll have my support/vote on it.

In general, I believe we should have different criteria of inclusion for different football eras for any kind of "long-term" list, i.e. for any list that takes into account many football eras, as the football played differs radically by football era (I consider a "football era" to be roughly about 20 years, because on average 20 years cover the whole career of a footballer).

* For instance, the list is missing people like Pelé, who played over 1,000 matches, including the "friendly" ones, but at the time he played football Santos "snobbed" the Copa Libertadores because of the violence and level of opponents, so decided to play in "friendly" tournaments instead, against harder opponents, so I definitely consider the matches Pelé played in friendly tournaments competitive (they were actually more competitive than the official ones), and so I would have included him on the list, if it was up to me.

Kind regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 05:58, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

IFFHS

So IFFHS has finally, for the first time ever produced their first list of definitive information of players with most matches. [4] I won't make any minor or major changes to this page in accordance to this article because a lot of criteria has to be considered, but I strongly suggest we use this piece of data produced by IFFHS to make sure most stats are correct and how players are credited (e.g. first to score, how many scored, etc.) FastCube (talk) 23:56, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Hello! First, it's not the first list of relative information (for instance, see this). Now, IFFHS' list is a different list; it's only a subset of the one WP has, since it's only about top-level games and in senior level only, and so could be used only as comparison so someone to make sure the stats in top-level are correct (if someone is interested in learning that), mainly compared with the numbers of detailed statistics in the according section of the footballers' WP bio-articles. Also, I don't know if it's definitive information, but, if it is (most likely it is), it is, unfortunately, of only what they arbitrarily consider top-level; for instance, Fábio is not on their list, because they don't consider the Campeonato Mineiro and the Campeonato Paranaense to be top level (even though that's not the case for CBF), as well as the Baiano (as, if they did, Dani Alves would have more matches), when at the same time they consider the Paulista and Carioca championships as top level (and this makes no sense, especially when it's not explained), et c., but, however, if someone thinks their list is important (I don't think it is), a WP article could be made about it, branded as IFFHS' list of players with most games in top level; the list here is "more" complete, takes into acount as many sources as possible and is also long-standing, so I don't think that list from IFFHS is needed (which is only useful for confirmation of only some numbers of only some players here) or that it should (as it could) be attached as a section on this article (but only in a separate article). Kind regards, Lorry Gundersen (talk) 22:35, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Fabio

Hello, do you have a source for Fabio's game with Union Bandeirante ? On his personal wiki we have 23 games only in state and national league) but in this article we have 30 games. Why that difference ?

--JOGIROX (talk) 16:20, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

Hello! The source is oGol. Kind regards, Lorry Gundersen (talk) 21:13, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Ray Clemence

Would someone be able to tell me how the late great Ray Clemence's total is over 700 when most sources put him on 665? OGBC1992 (talk) 19:35, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Hello! Because he had additionally played in at least 51 matches for Liverpool Reserves. Check the first reference next to Liverpool. Kind regards, Lorry Gundersen (talk) 16:08, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Youth international caps - remove?

I stumbled upon this page from João Moutinho who is apparently the most recent player to join this list, which is news to the entire mainstream press. I have never seen anyone count youth international caps as full appearances, as by definition it is not senior football. I see no reason why youth internationals are counted but not UEFA Youth League, or the Premier League youth leagues, which also have a similar interest from scouts.

It is worth remembering that Wikipedia is WP:NOT a publisher of original studies but a reflection of what sources actually say. It is quite damning that I can't find any other source saying Moutinho played 1,000 games, as the real sources aren't counting his youth international caps. Here [5] is an article from the BBC on Cristiano Ronaldo's 1000th game, which counts 164 international caps - the exact amount of senior caps he had at that point. 2A00:23C5:E187:5F01:15A9:9D13:BB3A:D85E (talk) 19:11, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

Input/Feedback/Response regarding your first paragraph – What are you talking about? Apart from all the sources from the Football Associations, UEFA, CONMEBOL, FIFA et c., almost all major football statistics databases, which are also the ones used in WP articles, as well as in this article, include the matches of youth international caps (FootballDatabase, oGol, BeSoccer, BDFutbol, SoccerWay, et c., only NFT doesn't), while they don't include the matches played in youth club level, which, by the way, is also why infoboxes of footballers’ WP article bios include only youth international numbers. However, I do agree that it would be useful if youth club matches could also be added, not because they are interesting for the scouts, but because they would cover more from the official career of the player, but, unfortunately, those numbers cannot be found for the majority of the players, especially for those who played in the 20tth century; it would be totally unfair having them only for a fistful of the players (ironically, this is also explained in the very first paragraph of the intro). In addition, the founding basis for this list was this from RSSSF, which is inactive since 2009, but you can see international youth numbers included. By the way, you can see previous relevant discussion here. P.S. I am not familiar with the term "full appearance" in football, do you mean the player having played for the whole 90 minutes?

Input/Feedback/Response regarding your second paragraph and first phrase of your first paragraph – Yes, indeed, normally, a reference is required stating explicitly that, but not in this case, because WP also allows the creation of lists and additions of items (in this case it’s male footballers) to the lists, i.e. items that meet the criteria of inclusion; it's a legitimate loophole (and of course, as stated, João Moutinho is the latest addition to the list).

Hope this helps, i.e. answers your queries.

Kind regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 17:09, 12 September 2022 (UTC)