Talk:List of non-Muslim authors on Islam

Split off

This article originated in the section Academic/Non-Muslim, a part of the article entitled List of Islamic studies scholars. It was split off and established as an independent article on July 6, 2008. Elfelix (talk) 16:45, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Alpha list?

How about a alphabetic list as well as a chronological? WBardwin (talk) 00:01, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Requested move 10 November 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: NO CONSENSUS: No consensus has been established on what the title should be. Given the length of time since the last comment posted, I'm closing this without prejudice to any further discussion on this topic. (non-admin closure) Spekkios (talk) 01:36, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

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Islamic studies by author (non-Muslim or academic) → List of non-Muslim authors on Islam – This article is a list and should begin by "List of" by convention. It is also quite ambiguous to have academic in the title as that could refer to most works on Islam.VR _talk 15:02, 10 November 2021 (UTC) — Relisting. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 23:48, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Islam has been notified of this discussion. VR _talk 15:07, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

I just noticed this article existed. think its good idea to differentiate the scholarly opinion outside of Islam, so it will give clarity regarding POV of certain scholar or researchers regarding their works, Ahendra (talk) 12:56, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Anyway, is there any article that examine this list? i mean an article specifically about history of non muslim study and research of Islam. Ahendra (talk) 13:00, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

@Ahendra: well there is Criticism of Islam, but that only covers very small part of non-Muslim studies of Islam. Are there any books that give a general overview of non-Muslim study of Islam? If so, we can begin to create such an article.VR _talk 15:26, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose as proposed. The article covers a good topic IMO. It was started some years ago by Elfelix who is still active. The proposed title is a significant change of scope. Perhaps the article should be moved to a List of title, but not this one. Andrewa (talk) 23:19, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

  What exactly is the current scope? The "or" implies any non-Muslim author or Muslim academic author would belong in this list. VR _talk 05:47, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

  The "academic" in title. For listings until recent times, "non-Muslim" suffices. Now, authors from Muslim cultures are professors in many "secular" universities. Often their academic writings on Islam intend to present an impartial, 'objective' POV. Disclosed may be their Muslim background. Elfelix (talk) 03:30, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

  @Elfelix: there have been religious institutions of higher learning in the Muslim world for centuries, eg Al-Azhar University. The scholars there would be considered "academic" too.VR _talk 04:07, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

  'Academic' has several definitions, one refers to its ancient Greek origins about pursuit of "secular" (non-religious) investigations, i.e., nonpartisan. Yet to accommodate your relevant point, maybe instead of 'academic' in the title, use "impartial" as in "non-Muslim or impartial"? Or another similar term to be found. One alternative would seem somehow unsatisfactory: to exclude any Muslim-associated professors who may currently write for an international audience of academics, who favor journal articles about the spiritual, without recourse to partisan texts. Our layered and interlinked world may appear to be so sublime as to confound the heritage of boundaries and definitions we share. Yet still, our circles remains difficult to square. Our day-to-day transcendence, mysterious. Maybe, reluctantly, just settle for a smaller scope, "List of non-Muslim authors of Islamic studies"? Elfelix (talk) 07:01, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

  @Elfelix: almost no one is truly "impartial". For example, Tomás d'Aquino was obviously a champion for the Catholic church, and Robert B. Spencer is widely described as an Islamophobe. I think most authors have some kind of bias. "List of non-Muslim authors of ..." is probably a much easier scope.VR _talk 13:38, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

• Question - if Muslim authors may be included, as the article lead implies and the inclusion of Elijah Muhammad whose article implies but does not definitively state he converted to Islam, then both current and proposed names are incorrect. Perhaps List of authors on Islam (non-Islamic world) or some such? Cheers, Facts707 (talk) 06:11, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

  Point taken. Yet Elijah Muhammad and similar authors are not in the primary lists, but in a supplemental "Other" category. Elfelix (talk) 07:01, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

  It would be difficult to define "non-Islamic world". Does India (85% Hindu) count as a non-Islamic country? Because many of the recent religious Islamic theological writers have come from India (Maududi, scholars of Darul Uloom Deoband, Ahmed Raza Khan Barelvi etc). And with the establishment of Category:Islamic universities and colleges in the United States a lot of Islamic writings are coming from America.VR _talk 13:38, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

• I think List of non-Muslim scholars of Islam might be a better wording. Regarding the scope - can someone point out a few examples of "Islamic academics writing about Islam for a non-Islamic audience"? User:力 (powera, π, ν) 20:01, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

  I would be ok List of non-Muslim scholars of Islam. But we would need to define WP:LISTCRITERIA. The definition of author is easy, but scholar is harder to define. Would Andrew Bostom, who is mainly notable for his writings on Islam, be a scholar of Islam? He is a professor of family medicine at Brown University, but doesn't seem to have any credentials related to Islamic studies. Would someone who is a scholar of history be a scholar of Islam too?

  I'm not sure what you mean by "Islamic academics writing about Islam for a non-Islamic audience". There are Muslim scholars at Western universities that write for a general (or sometimes specialist) audience: Tariq Ramadan, Seyyed Hossein Nasr, Asma Afsaruddin etc. There are Muslim writers (sometimes with academic credentials) that write books specifically for non-Muslims (with the aim of persuading them to convert to Islam): Bilal Philips, Shabir Ally etc.VR _talk 20:21, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

  The question about "Islamic academics writing about Islam for a non-Islamic audience" was directed to @Elfelix:, who is suggesting that some people of that description are on (or should be on) this list. User:力 (powera, π, ν) 20:31, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

  Although not able to verify each: Ehsan Yar-Shater (Iran), Roy Parviz Mottahedeh (not: Ba'hai), Farhadt J. Ziadeh (Egypt?), Sami Zubaida, Farhad Daftary ((Iran), Fazlur Rahman Faridi (India), Harald Motzki (may be Christian), Mehrzad Boroujerdi (Iran), Malika Zeghal (Tunisia), Timur Kuran (Turkey), Safwan M. Masri (Tunisia). Elfelix (talk) 22:28, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

  That's useful. I think the relevant distinction is between theologians and historians -- in particular a Shia academic writing about Sunni Islam could plausibly be grouped with a Christian scholar of Sunni Islam. For multiple reasons, the "non-Muslim" distinction works much better for pre-20th century people (should Ayaan Hirsi Ali be included on the list) - perhaps we need to split this by timeframe. User:力 (powera, π, ν) 22:38, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

  I believe Ayaan Hirsi Ali is non-Muslim, but not a scholar, so she'd be included under "List of non-Muslim authors on Islam" but not "List of non-Muslim scholars of Islamic studies".VR _talk 02:24, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Where do we go from here?

I'm pinging all the above participants: Ahendra, Andrewa, Elfelix, Facts707, 力. Where do we go from here? The scope of this is currently so broad that almost all authors can be included. All non-Muslim authors can be included, but most Muslim authors can be included as they are "academics" in some sense of the word (either by education at a Western university, Middle Eastern university, a madrassa etc). The only category that is excluded is Muslim non-academic authors. That's a weird category to be excluded. In fact, the way the scope is currently defined it doesn't even meet WP:NLIST. But I really don't want this to be deleted. I think this is just a poorly named but useful list. VR _talk 03:30, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

i think its matter of the POV of their respective disciplines field here. the 'Muslim scholars' in a sense here were those that hailed from the religious study of the jurisprudence accordance of Islam and historical study in accordance with Islamic view. while the 'non-muslim scholar' here were largely based on secular POV (n a sense. so my suggestion here, there should be two different lists based on those different disciplines & POV. Ahendra (talk) 05:26, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

I don't think all the non-Muslim scholars here are secular, for example we have Ramon Marti, Tomás d'Aquino etc who are devout Christian theologians.VR _talk 05:32, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

well, should wait for others opinion here to improve the list quality. in addition, should asking Al Ameer son too. he's more experinced than me regarding WP:MOS. Ahendra (talk) 05:46, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

As mentioned above, "academic" applies to the MOST RECENT ERA, when all participate in "modernist-style secular-value-conscious quasi-multicultural" universities. This tiny "academic" group was added t the original "non-Muslim", so as to include Muslim-associated authors writing for such an audience. Otherwise, +95% of authors are non-Muslim, of late-antiquity, medieval, renaissance, early-modern, or more recent. Many were not "academic" (e.g., religious, literary, merchant traveler, political). An easy solution would limit the article to books published before 1950, and/or authors born before 1900. Perhaps a title: LIST OF NON-MUSLIM AUTHORS OF ISLAMIC STUDIES. Supplements, of a kind already in the article, could address deleted authors. OR, another "List of" article could. Elfelix (talk) 22:26, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

When you say "Islamic studies" you are automatically ruling out people who didn't study Islam formally. So St Thomas Aquinas or Guru Nanak, major figures who wrote on Islam, would be excluded.VR _talk 01:55, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps List of Non-Muslim authors about Islam. Elfelix (talk) 05:53, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

@Elfelix: That's pretty much what I had proposed the last time. If I repropose that move will you support it? Thanks. VR _talk 20:38, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

@Vice regent: I was keeping an eye on this move discussion from a distant place. I am very frustrated. Anyway, you do not need to re-propose that move since I am going to move this page based on your original proposal. Elfelix has already recommended something similar, so I don't believe they'll object. Your proposal was very reasonable. There is no way to keep the present title. We must either split it into two separate articles (such as List of non muslim authors on Islam and List of non Muslim scholars of Islam etc) or move it to what you have proposed. I'm going to move because I think there is a rough consensus now among the active participants. And because we have not got all the time in the universe to debate about this. There are many other important things to accomplish here on Wikipedia. Also, it appears that no one else is interested in discussing the matter anymore. Mosesheron II (talk) 21:16, 18 December 2021 (UTC)