Talk:List of original (pre-war) Martin D-45s
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Notability
editI do not understand why user:Animalparty added the template suggesting that the content of this page is not notable. These are the most valuable and some of the rarest acoustic guitars ever made and the discovery of even one of them previously unknown to survive is a newsworthy event in acoustic music circles (see e.g http://rockguitardaily.blogspot.com.au/2012/03/1942-martin-d-45-80745-comes-out-of_23.html). Individual guitars are valued at in excess of $300,000 these days which makes them noteworthy in almost any book (particularly modern versions of the same, made by the same guitar company, sell for no more tan around $10,000 new). I have also included references to most/all content and for general information on the model as opposed to specific examples, a separate Wikipedia page exists with additional referenced information. If user:Animalparty still believes that the content is not sufficiently notable I would welcome suggestons as to how the article should be improved further.Tony1212 (talk) 03:24, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
- First off, I admit that I am not greatly familiar with Martin Guitars. My thought was the listing of serial numbers seems more in line with a directory or database (see WP:NOTSTATSBOOK, WP:NOTCATALOG), akin to a list of baseball cards, not an encyclopedic list. Aside from the few with details, how many of these 91 guitars have much verifiable information beyond their existence and serial number? However, if these 91 guitars and are commonly discussed as a coherent set or group, distinct from Martin D-45s as a whole, rather than an arbitrary subset, then they may indeed satisfy the notability guideline for stand-alone lists, and I would thus not object to the template's removal. Another option could be to merge the list to a section of Martin D-45 as a {{collapsible list}}, in order to discuss the guitars and an independently significant list in one article, maintaining context while giving a subset of interested readers more knowledge. In any case, please note that blogs, self-published sites, and forum posts are generally not considered reliable sources, and should not be used, and that includes https://sites.google.com/site/martind45masterlist/, the most cited reference. Sources with a reputation for fact-checking and veracity (books, news, magazines, etc) should be used to verify the information. Cheers. --Animalparty-- (talk) 07:03, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks, Animalparty, for the considered response. I am personally more than satisfied this set of 91 guitars is a coherent and notable group, and is mentioned as such regularly in acoustic guitar literature (can provide sources as needed, will add one to the intro section shortly), thus think it is appropriate to remove the template. With regard to https://sites.google.com/site/martind45masterlist/, the most cited reference, this is indeed a blog but unfortunately is the only (more or less) "complete" source of information on these instruments, including pictures which are not in public domain, being itself based on a mix of published information (catalogues, magazine articles etc.) and otherwise unpublished information obtained by the list compiler as personal communications with instrument owners who because of the intrinsic value of these instruments, often do not wish to be identified for obvious reasons... - so I would content that this blog is a bit of a special case in that respect. In general I envisage this page & list as (1) expandable to become a public-domain information point for which of these guitars are presently known to survive and which do not, plus distinguishing features where known, and (2) pointers to additional sources of information on particular instruments (especially non public domain photos) where these are available, some of which in print sources but more (at this time) mostly on the blogosphere. The compiler of the "martind45masterlist" may also at some point produce a printed work containing and extending the same information, but I do not think that the latter's absence should be a reason to not include this list in Wikipedia at the present time. I also take your point that it could be merged with the main article on the Martin D-45 model, but I think this is a special subset with its own appeal and coherence as a set and there are certainly persons out there (e.g. see "The Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum") who regularly want this level of detail. I was also looking as an example equivalent of the page on Stradivarius with an associated page on known surviving Stradivarius instruments, and so on. (By the way if you look up "Selmer Guitar" to which I have also contributed in the list department, that page goes the other way but in my view the list of surviving instruments would now do better under its own heading because again it is a slightly different slant than general info about the model). Regards - TonyTony1212 (talk) 00:53, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
- OK, I have made a few alteration/improvements/additional text, see what you thinkTony1212 (talk) 05:45, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks, Animalparty, for the considered response. I am personally more than satisfied this set of 91 guitars is a coherent and notable group, and is mentioned as such regularly in acoustic guitar literature (can provide sources as needed, will add one to the intro section shortly), thus think it is appropriate to remove the template. With regard to https://sites.google.com/site/martind45masterlist/, the most cited reference, this is indeed a blog but unfortunately is the only (more or less) "complete" source of information on these instruments, including pictures which are not in public domain, being itself based on a mix of published information (catalogues, magazine articles etc.) and otherwise unpublished information obtained by the list compiler as personal communications with instrument owners who because of the intrinsic value of these instruments, often do not wish to be identified for obvious reasons... - so I would content that this blog is a bit of a special case in that respect. In general I envisage this page & list as (1) expandable to become a public-domain information point for which of these guitars are presently known to survive and which do not, plus distinguishing features where known, and (2) pointers to additional sources of information on particular instruments (especially non public domain photos) where these are available, some of which in print sources but more (at this time) mostly on the blogosphere. The compiler of the "martind45masterlist" may also at some point produce a printed work containing and extending the same information, but I do not think that the latter's absence should be a reason to not include this list in Wikipedia at the present time. I also take your point that it could be merged with the main article on the Martin D-45 model, but I think this is a special subset with its own appeal and coherence as a set and there are certainly persons out there (e.g. see "The Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum") who regularly want this level of detail. I was also looking as an example equivalent of the page on Stradivarius with an associated page on known surviving Stradivarius instruments, and so on. (By the way if you look up "Selmer Guitar" to which I have also contributed in the list department, that page goes the other way but in my view the list of surviving instruments would now do better under its own heading because again it is a slightly different slant than general info about the model). Regards - TonyTony1212 (talk) 00:53, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
Incompleteness
editThis page reflects readily accessible information that is published elsewhere but is known to be incomplete. Additions are welcome provided they can be attributed as per standard Wikipedia policy; previously unpublished information as an alternative can be supplied to the compilers of the D-45 Master List [1] for publication there in the first instance if needed. (In particular, material currently in the 'Miscellaneous' section is currently in need of expansion).Tony1212 (talk) 03:11, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
References
Material currently in "Miscellaneous" section
editInformation that is currently floating around about individual pre-war D-45s for which serial numbers are not given is presently housed under the heading "Miscellaneous" in the main article. As additional information comes to light that enables serial numbers to be associated with any of the cited instruments, that information can then be transferred into the main section under the appropriate number. I have just managed to do this for the instrument played by Tony Rice on "Tone Poems" with David Grisman, and illustrated on the cover of Acoustic Guitar Magazine for January 1996, via discovering that this is the same (formerly Jim Rickard) instrument previously noted as #72160. Sources for serial numbers for any of the other instruments presently in this section would be greatly appreciated!Tony1212 (talk) 05:29, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
Also interesting, the same source that allowed the matching of these two pieces of information pointed out that a different pic of this instrument was inadvertently used to accompany a separate magazine feature on the last (1942) D-45 ever made, instead of one of the the correct instrument. Comparison of the 2 pictures shows that this is indeed the case (the otherwise random marks on the pickguard are a giveaway...)!Tony1212 (talk) 05:35, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
External links modified
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Set checked to "true" Tony 1212 (talk) 09:59, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
External links modified
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New addition May 2018
editS/no. 78883 (1941) has surfaced, offered for sale by Gryphon Stringed Instruments, California in May 2018, asking price $135,000 in May 2018, see here: https://shop.gryphonstrings.com/products/1941-steel-string-acoustic-martin-guitar-d45-53459. That's another one accounted for, just 27 to go... new material/contributions/sightings especially welcome! Cheers Tony 1212 (talk) 07:42, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
Proposed deletion January 2020 (result = "keep")
editFrom the header above:
"This article was nominated for deletion on 5 January 2020. The result of the discussion was keep."
Relevant discussion is archived at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_original_(pre-war)_Martin_D-45s . Tony 1212 (talk) 19:08, 27 January 2020 (UTC)