Talk:List of people from Bangor, Maine

Turning into a list

Over then next few days I will be taking the time to turn this prose page into a Wikipedia standard list form. Dkriegls (talk) 23:34, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm glad that Dkriegls separated this from the main Bangor article, but I've restored it to its original prose form to preserve the context, the citations and the readability. It would be ashame to loose the work that Skoopy, myself, and many other editors put into the section over the years. Buskahegian (talk) 17:51, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Buskahegian, your revert is supported by me. No need to lose the prose. The list convention for notable people sections is not a mandate.Dkriegls (talk) 19:10, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Removing all entries without Wikipedia page

I've removed all entries without their own Wikipedia page. I appreciate that a lot of work went it to finding citations for several of these entries, however, notability should be established with their own Wikipedia page, not this list. WP:USCITY is a well established consensus on what gets included on list's of notable people. Dkriegls (talk) 19:08, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

I appreciate your placing the sub-headings in alphabetical order but, as before, a great deal of relevent information was deleted, which I had to restore. To quote the wiki page on notable people lists, "red-linked entries are acceptable if he entry is verifiably a member of the selected group, and it is reasonable to expect an article could be forthcoming in future" (WP:LSC) And from the red-link page: "Good red links help Wikipedia—they encourage new contributors in useful directions, and remind us that Wikipedia is far from finished." (WP:RED) This means that at least the well-referenced red-linked entries should be preserved, and the unreferenced ones should be flagged as needing references rather than deleted. I've met you half-way by red-linking every non-linked name to signal readers as to which names still need stand-alone articles to be written. I'll also work on dropping in references where still needed.(Buskahegian (talk) 17:53, 1 October 2011 (UTC))

Many lists have been made to help direct authors to articles needing creation, however, due to frequent abuse, consensus has it that notable people lists only include the occasional exceptional person in red link because these lists very quickly become a directory of locally famous people. This list is loaded with names that violate WP:Notability. The following are but a few examples:

1. Helena Wood Smith Non-notable Citation : Lewiston Daily Sun, Fail= Local paper coverage of her death is not significant coverage of her art.
2. David Thibodeau Non-notable Citation his own book, Fail= being a victim and writing a book is not sufficient criterion for notability
3. Jay Stone No-Citation Appointment to government job is not notable on its own without significant media coverage.
4. Chester E. Norris No-Citation Fail= Appointment of ambassador alone is not notable.
5. Florence Whitney Jennison and Isabel Graham Eaton, Non-notable Citation: the Bangor Historical Society, Fail= Mention by local historical societies is not significant coverage for Notability

This is only a small sampling of the citations I removed for non-notability. Some of these people may be worthy of a biography page, but the citations as they stand here violate WP:Notability (people). I understand that Buskahegian has put a lot of work into this page. However, this type of connection to the subject is the reason Notable people pages for municipalities and schools get treated more conservatively than other lists pages. It is not to punish contributors, but to prevent mass inclusion of people who have not been vetted through more traditional vetting process of creating their own Biography page. I ask Buskahegian to redo my deletions and then add back people who have been vetted with their own Wikipedia page, because red-linking them here has failed to vet out WP:Notability (people) violations. Dkriegls (talk) 01:44, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

This page (and many like it) is not actually a directory of locally famous people. Its arguably the opposite: a directory of people who became famous or notable once they left a particular place (in this case Bangor, Maine, but in other cases schools and colleges) and who, until Wikipedia, were forgotten at their point of origin. Had they stayed home, few would have become notable. This is one of the many great benefits of Wikipedia - it re-gathers the lost dead. When the page began many years ago, there were only a handful of notable people from Bangor, Maine: Stephen King, Hannibal Hamlin (Lincoln's Vice President) and a few national politicians. Now there are many dozens, located through internet databases that are constantly being increased and refined, and allow more and more biographical information to be gathered from very dispersed sources.

Not everyone was notable, and I do vet the names I add and choose to write about. But the red-links are helpful rather than a hinderance, as pointed out in the Wikipedia policy I quoted. They invite others to write articles. If I introduced every name as a blue-link, I'd have to write all the articles myself. And although I'm a prolific contributor, everyone has their limits. I invite you to turn more red-links into blue ones rather than delete them.

I take your point that some of the names introduced to the article by myself (and others) are not yet cited. I'll work hard over the next few weeks to cite them or cull them out. But I can't agree that a citation can't establish notability by itself, within the context of a sub-category. If the sub-category is "Diplomats (from Bangor, Maine)", and Chester E. Norris was unquestionably a diplomat from Bangor, Maine, based on a citation, then it would seem a stand-alone article on Norris is desirable but not necessary. (Buskahegian (talk) 16:05, 10 October 2011 (UTC))

Thanks for the dialog Buskahegian. It's seems we discussed a citation issue once before for a Camp Etna, and resolved it amicably. I am fine with a red linked name under notable people lists as long as they have a confirming citation that alone meets WP:Notability (people). With the goal that the red linked name inspires a future editor to add the bibliography page. However, a general citation confirming they exist or have a connection to the town is not enough. The citation must demonstrate that the person meets WP:Notability (people), that is the WP policy. The problem I found with this page is that many of the red linked names do not have citations and the description provided for the person does not suggest that person even meets WP:Notability (people). I also found many red linked people with citations that did not establish notability. Names should not be added just because and editor thinks or heard that this person is notable, you must at least provide a sufficient link.

Chester E. Norris is a perfect example. There is no doubt he was a diplomat from Bangor Maine. The issue is that the notability policy has a position on diplomats and it clearly states that being a diplomat is not notable by itself unless they "participated in a significant way in events of particular diplomatic importance that have been written about in reliable secondary sources". Another good example would be the section entitled They Married Well. This entire section violates WP:Notability; the first entry under Invalid criteria is that "person A has a relationship with well-known person B" is not valid criterion. The blue links for the 5 names I listed above all link directly to the specific policy violation. I hope this helps you in your citation search. Dkriegls (talk) 05:20, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

They Married Well

This section completely violates Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Invalid criteria. Specifically, "person A has a relationship with well-known person B, such as being a spouse or child, is not a reason for a standalone article". If they fail notability, they should not be included on this list. This is a pretty clear long standing consensus. Dkriegls (talk) 06:50, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

I've restored this section, because according to published Wiki consensus, the rule cited above "does not apply to situations where the fact of having a relationship to another person inherently defines a public position that is notable in its own right, such as a national First Lady or membership of a Royal house." Most of the persons included under this heading fell into that exceptional category. I have, however, eliminated the few who didn't. Better to keep this category than redistribute First Ladies to "statesmen" (who are normally elected officials) or create sections specifically for the other women (e.g a princess). Holly Hanson Coors, for example, belongs here because she satisfies the heading, and she already has a Wiki article. It would be hard to otherwise classify her. Note also that I've included in the criteria for inclusion the line: "The marriage must define a public position that is notable in its own right, such as a First Lady or member of a Royal house", which should severly delimit the numbers and types of postings.Buskahegian (talk) 13:00, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Additional deletions

I know Buskahegian takes keen interest in this page, so I wanted to make sure that my additional deletions are documented here, with the reason for their deletion spelled out.

• Hayford Peirce Sr., father of the science fiction author Hayford Peirce and brother of painter Waldo Peirce, was a noted scholar of Byzantine Art.

-WP:Notability (people)#Invalid criteria: Specifically, "person A has a relationship with well-known person B, such as being a spouse or child, is not a reason for a standalone article".

• Paul T. White (1895–1973), composer, professor of music at the University of Rochester, and conductor of the Rochester Civic Orchestra (1953–1965) was born in Bangor, as was Rudolph Ringwall, associate conductor of the Cleveland Orchestra (1934–56).

-WP:Notability (music): as composer (needs notable work) as conductor (non-notable orchestra) (also Rudolph Ringwall held non-notable position).

-WP:Notability (academics): professor alone is not notable

• Another MIT-educated architect from Bangor, Frank A. Bourne (1871-1936) specialized in churches and houses in Greater Boston, and was a "founder and catalyst" in the renaissance of Boston's Beacon Hill neighborhood in the early 1900s.

-WP:Notability: Obituaries fail Significant coverage. Achievements aren't otherwise notable without significant coverage.

• The modern architect Eaton Tarbell has also strongly influenced Bangor's cityscape.

-WP:Notability: no citation and no mention of notable work

• His children Anna Eliza Hardy and Francis Willard Hardy, and sister Mary Ann Hardy, were also part of a 19th century circle of Bangor painters. Other members of this circle included Florence Whitney Jennison and Isabel Graham Eaton, who was also an author.

-WP:Notability (people)#Invalid criteria: Specifically, "person A has a relationship with well-known person B, such as being a spouse or child, is not a reason for a standalone article". They would need notability on their own art

• Bangor-born Portland lawyer Ralph Lancaster served as Independent Counsel investigating corruption charges against Clinton Administration Secretary of Labor Alexis Herman.

-Wikipedia:Notability (people): independent counsel is not a default notable task, much like diplomat. Listing needs to justify Notability with significant coverage.

• L.B. Davies of Augusta, Maine, who came to work as a millwright in Bangor when he was 17, and subsequently joined the crew of a local steamboat, ended up in Ohio. There he invented the cow-catcher. He never patented it, nor made a cent from its widespread use.

-Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources: citation fail, it just says NY times. No way to assess Significant Coverage.

• John O. Carr of Bangor, Vice President of the Teletype Corporation, invented and held patents on seven improvements to the Teletype between 1926 and 1944.

-WP:Notability: Obituaries fail Significant coverage. Achievements aren't otherwise notable without significant coverage.

• Jay W. Lathrop (b. Bangor, 1927) was a pioneer in the fabrication of transistors, and co-invented the solar chemical converter system of energy conservation.

-Wikipedia:Notability (people): un-cited and non-notable achievement.

• William Otis Sawtelle (1874–1939), who was born in Bangor and taught at Bangor High School, later became a professor of physics at Haverford College and an amateur historian and naturalist. The William Otis Sawtelle Archives and Research Center at Acadia National Park houses his collection among many others.

-WP:Notability (academics): professor alone is not notable

While I respect Dkriegls' concern with documented references (which I share), his one rule which overstates the notability requirement for this page is that the person must have an existing Wikipedia article. When I last checked, Wikipedia allowed that notability could be established by references and/or an existing Wiki page. Some people start by writing a Wiki article, and others start by listing the person (with references) in a list page in anticipation that others will write a full article. I think requiring that these things happen in a particular order will discourage some valid, and valuable entries. I'll thus be selectively restoring entries that have well-documented the notability of a person, but have not yet resulted in a full Wiki page. I've also changed the requirement for inclusion (under each section) from a person "must have" an existing Wiki page to "merits" a Wiki page, which I think is a fair standard. Buskahegian (talk) 13:13, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Melville Fuller

I've removed him from the list. Here[1] and here[2] are two WP:RS that say he practiced law and was city solicitor for Augusta Maine when this article says he was in Bangor. Also note both those sources make no mention of Fuller in Bangor at all. Without a RS saying Fuller was in Bangor, he shouldn't be on the list. Therefore I'm removing him....William 17:47, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Please note I went to this talk page asking if anyone can find a source for Fuller being in Bangor....William 19:25, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

All entries without Wikipedia page

They should be removed. Every Maine community wikipedia article that has a Notable people has this at the top of the section.

'· Only people who already have a Wikipedia article may appear here. This establishes notability. · The article must mention how they are associated with South Portland, whether born, raised, or residing. · The fact of their association should have a reliable source cited. · Alphabetical by last name please. · All others will be deleted.'

So do all the List of people from Maine location, Maine articles. Why should Bangor be different from the rest of Maine?...William 19:53, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Fullers again

The Fuller entry has been restored 6 months after it was removed, with the edit summary "Restored unwarranted deletion. Fuller-Ladd family was prominent in Bangor's history." I think most of the original removal was well warranted. The list is for notable individuals, not families. Notability is not inherited. Melville Weston Fuller is notable, but needs a citation to show his connection with Bangor since there is no mention of Bangor in his wikiarticle. I'm tagging him with a CN for the Bangor connection. Henry Weld Fuller was not a judge so he should not be listed in the Judges section. He has no article and the only ref is his obit. As has been pointed out already, an obituary is not sufficient to show notability. I am removing him. George Melville Weston was not a judge and should not be listed in the Judges section. He has no wikiarticle and no refs. I am removing him. Meters (talk) 19:49, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Christine Weston

My mother was a close friend of Robert and Christine Weston in the 1940s and I, as a kid, knew them somewhat. My clear recollection is that they lived in Brewer, the sister city across the river from Bangor, but NOT in Bangor itself. Hayford Peirce (talk) 19:01, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

At the time of her death per the New York Times[3], Weston had an apartment in Bangor. So that makes her from Bangor. As for Brewster, I could find nothing to verify your recollection....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 19:41, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Could well be. When we knew her and her husband, Robert, they lived across the river in Brewer (not Brewster), and I remember visiting their house. He shot himself one night around 1955, in their Castine house, maybe, and after that we lost track of her. She may well have been living in an apartment in Bangor in her later years.... Hayford Peirce (talk)

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