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Talk:List of people killed for being transgender/Archive 2

< Talk:List of people killed for being transgender
Latest comment: 3 years ago by Paisarepa in topic Demolition operations on the article
Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3Archive 4

Johanna Metzger RIP

Latest comment: 4 years ago6 comments3 people in discussion
https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2020/04/transgender-woman-found-stabbed-death-baltimore/ https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/04/15/johanna-metzger-transgender-woman-murdered-virtual-vigil-zoom-baltimore/ She is believed to be the sixth transgender or gender non-conforming person killed in the United States in 2020. https://people.com/crime/transgender-woman-killed-baltimore-vigil/

The above girl is just one example of the many unjustified deletions.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:52:2327:7D25:CCE1 (talk) 12:23, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

I made that deletion and several others because the motive of the killer has not been established in any of the available sources. The current version of the page is only listing people killed for being transgender rather than all transgender people who've been murdered. Please explain why you believe the deletion of Metzger is unjustified.142.79.218.176 (talk) 17:44, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

In over a supermajority of cases, the killer will not admit motive nor will a motive be established in a criminal trial--many cases are never prosecuted even in the cases of hetero people let alone t girls.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:52:2327:7D25:CCE1 (talk) 23:18, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

That's right. In many cases we simply will never know the motive. In those cases we cannot simply assume and attribute a motive. Wikipedia isn't supposed to work that way. If you want the page to go back to the old standard where it included any unlawful killings of transgender people then you should start a move review. I'd actually prefer that standard since it's simpler (I only found this page after the title change was made so I wasn't involved in that discussion), but the current page is just for cases with a known motive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.79.218.176 (talk) 23:37, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

The sources cited above like HRC, LGBTQNation, etc. attribute the deaths to gender bias.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:52:2327:7D25:CCE1 (talk) 00:06, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

I disagree. They discuss the murder, note the paucity of available information and proceed to engage in a discussion of the serious bias issues faced by trans women without making unfounded allegations in the instant case. Entirely appropriate for activists and journalists. But insufficient to warrant inclusion on this page under the current title until more information is available. Again, if you with to make the page more inclusive, initiate a move review. Otherwise accept the current standard and help edit the list to well-sourced cases.OrdinaryDecent (talk) 00:33, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Inclusion guidelines

Latest comment: 4 years ago17 comments8 people in discussion

Per the recent page move discussion and the consensus to alter the scope of this list, I propose that the entries be re-evaluated. Growing on some experiences regarding scope of entries on another list, I suggest this page adopt the rough guideline at the top of Talk:List of unusual deaths which resulted from an RfC. Slightly rewording that for this list, I'd state it as:

Keep this list only to those deaths for which there are high-quality reliable sources (not tabloids, blogs, or advocacy sites) stating that the victim's transgender status was a direct factor in the circumstances of their death. All other entries where their status is incidental, suspected but unproven, or entirely unrelated should be removed.

If there is general agreement, I'll place a similar notice at the top of this page. -- Netoholic @ 14:16, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Adding "advocacy sites" seems like a pretty big divergence from the notice you're supposedly just 'rewording', which specifically only calls out tabloids. What exactly does that mean? Parabolist (talk) 09:05, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
Its just tailoring it to the circumstances of this list and topic area - for example, if there was a list about UFO abductions, we'd want to caution with a reminder against using UFO/conspiracy sites. I think its pretty clear that this topic area gets a lot of attention from LGBT advocates, and they will tend to equivocate or conflate "transgender person who was killed" and "killed because they were transgender" - at least in implication. This list's inclusions can become a WP:V problem, and we need to seek out high-quality sources that don't have a stake in LGBT issues/advocacy. -- Netoholic @ 13:48, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
@Netoholic and Parabolist: Absolutely not. While I would understanding using LGBTQ-based sources would ideally be supplementary, it is often times that the transgender status or backstory of the victim is only reported on LGBTQ sources. It's very common that many small news sites only report "<person characteristic> found dead in <location>" and those sites often misgender and deadname the victims who haven't had the opportunity or access to change legal name and/or gender. Most trans people who are killed are killed in someway because they are transgender, whether it was the direct contributing factor or among a group of contributing factors. Honestly I'm very dismayed by these changes. They just continually degrade the whole encyclopedic history we have trans murders and just files a vast swathe of the ones we know about to the relegation of "unsolved cold cases" at best and "the murderer didn't say they hated trans people" at worst. Gwen Hope (talk) (contrib) 04:13, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
What you are advocating goes directly against WP:Verifiability - we are not going to use less- or un-reliable advocacy sites over journalistic sources. So there is an advocacy site that gives certain details about a death, but four newspapers/news stations that "deadname" or "misgender" or fail to mention transgender status as a factor in the crime, then it is not our role as an encyclopedia bound by WP:V to supersede them. So, at worst, those particular cases would not be included in this list, and that is fine because this list is not here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS or to WP:MEMORIALize these victims. -- Netoholic @ 06:14, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
I think you are making great leaps when it comes to advocacy websites. There's a difference between sources which manufacture misinformation like conspiracy websites and advocacy websites that just track niche issues. In fact, most sources for specific information can be classified in some way as enthusiast or advocacy websites to more or less degree. (Examples: Want information on environmental activism? Try Greenpeace or The Sierra Club. LGBTQ rights? GLAAD or HRC. Political information enthusiast? FiveThirtyEight. Etc. Etc.) Some of the most reliable LGBTQ reporting are community-based. They're often reliable and notable enough to have their own pages (i.e. TransGriot). Many of these are reliable and perennial sources. I want to impress upon you that WP:BIASED specifically says that sources don't have to be neutral and unbiased. If you have specific umbrage against certain sources, it would be better discussed at WP:RSN. Gwen Hope (talk) (contrib) 07:31, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
This to me sounds like rationalization from within a filter bubble to claim that an advocacy organization is a better source than journalists... ridiculous. -- Netoholic @ 13:20, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Strong support for Netoholic’s proposal. Wikipedia must be very conservative with the facts. This Wikipedia article could very likely become a shadow source for new real world publications, and that is a problem rabbit hole. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:08, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Yeah, I absolutely oppose this, based on Netoholic's response. Comparing the resources used here to UFO conspiracy websites is absolutely ridiculous. If you think sources used for this page aren't reliable, please list some examples. Otherwise this is a solution looking for a problem. Parabolist (talk) 11:31, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
    This is not an oppose/support situation - there has already been established consensus to alter the focus and content of this list, and precedent that such lists are prone to WP:V issues. If you're like to propose a reword of the above notice, do so, but if this thread is any indication, its clear such a notice is necessary because participants are clearly wrong in their evaluation of what constitutes a reliable source for reporting on crimes and the circumstances of them. -- Netoholic @ 18:59, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Tabloids and blogs are already generally excluded as reliable sources everywhere on Wikipedia, so I don't see a need to call them out on this page. As far as advocacy, major LGBTQ-focused sources such as GLAAD are reliable and, as Gwenhope points out, often more accurate than mainstream sources when it comes to the victims' names and gender identities. Funcrunch (talk) 17:38, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
    • GLAAD is in no way reliable for the purpose of investigating the circumstances of crimes, nor for reporting on the results of those investigations. Advocacy sites can only speculate and that is precisely why we need to inform editors to be wary of them. -- Netoholic @ 18:52, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
      • Nearly all sources aren't reliable for the purpose of investigating crimes. They report what they're told by officials and personal sources they find credible (such as a victim's family). For the purpose of finding reliable information, places like GLAAD and HRC are often more reliable than small-town news sources. If you want examples, look at all the citations for 2019. Many of the "advocacy" sites you decry are much better sourced and documented than some of the other news sources cited. Gwen Hope (talk) (contrib) 07:31, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
        • Journalistic sources report on crime investigations by police every day, and so are reliable. Advocacy organizations do not do that, and so are not, and their bias leads them to speculate rather than report. -- Netoholic @ 13:17, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
  • I agree with the various points made by Gwenhope, Parabolist, and Funcrunch. (1) The "advocacy sites" under consideration here are not inherently unreliable, and no evidence has been presented in support of that position. On the contrary, as the history of this page amply demonstrates, such sites can be a valuable source for gathering and documenting incidents which are otherwise likely to be under-reported. Advocacy does not preclude reliability. We should not be telling people not to use advocacy sites as sources. (2) The proposed guideline is too simplistic, and "incidental" and "suspected but unproven" are impractical standards (i.e. not usable in practice) in the vast majority of cases when a person is killed for being transgender. Both the subject and the way it is discussed are more complex than that, for various reasons that have been discussed before on this talk page. --Jd4v15 (talk) 23:53, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
  • The title of this article was changed well over a month ago, and the heavy trimming needed to bring the content in line has not yet happened; consequently this article has been straight-up misinformation for several weeks. I'm tempted to simply start removing entries myself, but I suspect the changes will be reverted. What is the procedure for making the case for removing entries from this article on the grounds of lack of credible evidence of anti-trans bias being a factor? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:6580:23E0:2500:6008:74EC:6B53:79BD (talk) 05:33, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
  • I tried removing some entries with unknown motive and the changes were reverted. I did it again and they were reverted again. I've removed others with known motives unrelated to being trans and those have gone without issue. We could start pruning, but that will likely just lead to a mess of reversions and undoing reversions. Currently, there isn't really a procedure for removing entries based on lack of evidence. Want to take a shot at putting one together?OrdinaryDecent (talk) 01:19, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

move back to prior title

Latest comment: 4 years ago7 comments4 people in discussion
  • The current title of the article is not accurate and has never been. Nor is it likely to be in the future. I suggest that we return to the previous title of List of unlawfully killed transgender people or something similar. Editors aren't restricting themselves to entries consistent with the current title and no one is going back through the list of old entries to make sure they fit. Reverting to the old title is the simplest fix.OrdinaryDecent (talk) 18:36, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
This was recently decided under #Requested move 20 March 2020, so unless you have any new arguments to add, its unlikely to be reversed. Editors need to adhere to the consensus to change the scope, and where that is not being done, it should be handled in other ways. -- Netoholic @ 04:25, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
But editors aren't adhering to it and no one has put forth any effort to go through the list of old entries so the title change made the article massively wrong. What are these other ways to handle it?OrdinaryDecent (talk) 05:33, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
  • @OrdinaryDecent: In Wikipedia, cleanup does not have a deadline, and 10 weeks since the consensus to rework the list is not a significant amount of time. See also WP:NOEFFORT under arguments to avoid. The March 2020 move was a compromise between the overbroad "unlawfully killed" and the too restrictive "murdered" inclusion standards. External references to the list include it under the transphobia and anti-trans violence subtopics. If an entry is off-topic or not sufficiently verifiable, it should be removed. The list needs pruning and your edits in have been helpful. Don't give up on it so soon. • Gene93k (talk) 08:50, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
  • p.s. If the issue is urgent enough, you can use a maintenance tag like {{list dispute}}, which will add the page to appropriate needs-work categories monitored by other editors. As always, WP:SOFIXIT is generally preferred as a first resort. • Gene93k (talk) 08:58, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
That all makes perfect sense, thanks. And the new maintenance tag that's been added really addresses my urgent concern, so WP:SOFIXIT works for me.OrdinaryDecent (talk) 14:02, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Article cleanup to fit topic

Latest comment: 4 years ago6 comments3 people in discussion

I've been working on cleaning up this article, beginning with the most recent entries chronologically. I've removed all entries that lack evidence that the victim was killed because of their transgender identity. Most entries on this page seem to be of homicide victims who were trans. This is an extremely broad category, naturally, and not the focus of this page. There have been issues with reversions of the readdition of persons after they were removed for lack of evidence. Dickovick (talk) 20:51, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Excellent work. Article is now much more accurate. Should be much easier to maintain now.OrdinaryDecent (talk) 03:28, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
Cleanup or gutting/vandalism?--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 18:13, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
Appropriate changes based on the current title of the article. Please wait until your move request is concluded before adding restoring entries that do not fit the current title. Let the process work and we can all work together to reach consensus on the talk page instead of reverting each other's edits over and over again.OrdinaryDecent (talk) 19:16, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
Your massive deletions are mutilating the article beyond repair. The basket case of an article you're rendering will require an army of surgeons to operate on!--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 19:27, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
Not at all. If the move request is approved all of the removed entries can be easily restored within a day. I'll happily do the work myself.OrdinaryDecent (talk) 19:31, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Dustin Parker killed for his gender

Latest comment: 4 years ago7 comments3 people in discussion

Yes, Pinknews says, "There is no suggestion at this time that the killing was motivated by Parker’s gender identity." [1] However, Dustin Parker was a trans activist and there is no other reason that he was killed besides his gender. The vandalism occurring on this article is mind-boggling.

Are we expecting his murderer(s) to make a public confession that he killed Dustin Parker for the exclusive reason of his gender? The enemies of trans people rarely announce their position in the same way that the advocates of racially enslaving black people wouldn't say that they hated black people--they would publicly say that they only supported states' rights!--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:5C42:EF25:BD6D:C4BD (talk) 18:10, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

  • Wikipedia goes by verifiability, as supported by reliable sources. Wikipedia uses the exact same standard with terrorism-related topics. When reliable sources cannot discern motive, Wikipedia editors cannot assert without evidence that the victim must have been targeted for his identity. This also applies to race, religion, political stance or any other kind of targeted violence. • Gene93k (talk)
Once again we get back to why this article requires criminal conviction of the killer(s)? The "List of people killed for being transgender" name is unreasonable and the beyond a reasonable doubt standard being applied to this article makes me wonder why the article isn't totally empty?--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:5C42:EF25:BD6D:C4BD (talk) 19:26, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
No. It requires reliable sources which say the person was killed for being transgender. Otherwise it would be named something else. -- Netoholic @ 19:35, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
"While the motives behind Parker’s murder are not yet known, his death is emblematic of a larger epidemic of violence against trans people, both in the U.S. and worldwide." [2] --2601:C4:C300:1BD0:5C42:EF25:BD6D:C4BD (talk) 20:16, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
In other words, they don't know, and so we can't imply it is so by adding it to this list. -- Netoholic @ 20:40, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

If you read the reports carefully, then you'll see that they say that

  • police department hasn't chalked up the death as a trans homicide
  • the reporters at HRC, the Advocate, ABC, and other news organization say it is a trans homicide.

--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:5C40:79EC:F181:A6D9 (talk) 21:59, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 July 2020

Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Change "Carlos VG, also known as "Carly"" to "Carly VG," 2600:6C40:1580:BC:502E:56DE:309F:5D9 (talk) 03:09, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 July 2020

Latest comment: 4 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Change any instance of [Deadname] also known as [Chosen name] to just [Chosen name] 2600:6C40:1580:BC:502E:56DE:309F:5D9 (talk) 03:13, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

  Not done. Please specify what you wish to see changed in detail, not just in general. As a side note, I cannot find any instances of "also known as" anyway. Regards SoWhy 07:29, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Guideline for inclusion

Latest comment: 4 years ago10 comments2 people in discussion

The article needs to clearly state it is a "list of trans homicides after police or court statements alleging transphobia."--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:609F:B35B:467C:A139 (talk) 20:11, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

  • Oppose. This is not and has never been an accurate description of the standard for inclusion on this page. Many entries come from Reliable Sources that are not police or courts. The current description is adequate as long as the disclaimer regarding completeness at the top is retained.OrdinaryDecent (talk) 20:53, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

I don't want limit the scope of the article. The scope of the article has been limited by you and others who remove my edit stating," In 2019, Brazil had 130 killings of transgender people, the most of any country."[3] You are the same people who removed 100's of trans homicide victims. Yet, you know that your position limiting the scope of the article is wrong. So, you don't want to be transparent about the guideline!--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:609F:B35B:467C:A139 (talk) 21:01, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

I believe that the current inclusion guidelines are sufficiently transparent and I have always maintained that any attempt to broaden the scope of the article requires a title change. Since you are apparently dissatisfied with the current scope of the article and we are unlikely to reach consensus, I suggest that you consider the options available through WP:DR which might help us resolve this matter with some finality.OrdinaryDecent (talk) 21:19, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

The guideline must be spelled out. (1) police, (2) court statements, and (3) an unknown third guideline. What is the (3)rd unknown guideline?--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:609F:B35B:467C:A139 (talk) 21:38, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Again, you are mistaken. That is not and never has been the guideline. The guideline is that a Reliable Source has to state that a person was killed for being transgender. I am uncertain why you believe the police or courts are or have been required but they are not. Again, if you believe that this doesn't work for some reason you should consider the options described in WP:DR.OrdinaryDecent (talk) 21:49, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Is the New York Times not reliable when its article states that 130 trans homicides occurred in Brazil due to inordinate trans hate in Brazilian society?--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:609F:B35B:467C:A139 (talk) 22:06, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
In the United States as of 4 days ago, 21 trans people have been killed. These 21 "transgender people are most often victims of hate violence." Why are these 21 trans homicides excluded? The author of the article is clearly attributing the 21 deaths as of 4 days ago to trans hate.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:609F:B35B:467C:A139 (talk) 22:13, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
I can't speak to the NYT article as I have not read it and was not involved in that edit, but the fuller version of the USA Today quote is "People of color and transgender people are most often victims of hate violence, according to a 2017 report from the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs." so that isn't a reference to the recent 21 cases. The author discusses the 21 cases briefly without calling any of them hate crimes and then discusses transphobic violence more generally as journalists tend to do. As such, we cannot just copy and paste a list of every trans person ever killed and call them all hate crimes since the journalists working the field are responsible enough not to do that. But again, since we will not be reaching consensus, I recommend considering WP:DR.OrdinaryDecent (talk) 23:00, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
Your illogical claim that the author of the USA Today article doesn't chalk up the 21 deaths so far in the United States to transphobia is false.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:609F:B35B:467C:A139 (talk) 23:16, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Dominique Rem’mie Fells

Latest comment: 4 years ago20 comments8 people in discussion

Some editors of this article are ignoring reports of trans homicides. I don't even dare to add the death of Dominique Rem’mie Fells. All trans homicides in 2020 in the United States have been censored!--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:5C40:79EC:F181:A6D9 (talk) 22:06, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

  • The homicide is being investigated according to the source. Once the facts are verifiable and provide evidence that this was a killed-because-transgendered death, then it can be added to this article. Nothing is being censored. As mentioned already on this talk page, this death is likely on the Human Rights Campaign's list of deaths, which has a wider scope and different purpose than the Wikipedia list. • Gene93k (talk) 23:41, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
On the contrary, there is currently no consensus on the proper scope of this list. Multiple editors have repeatedly pointed out that a restrictive interpretation is inappropriate for the subject because it sets an impossible standard (courts, cops, and journalists rarely state an explicit motive when a transgender person is murdered). In the absence of a consensus, we should be taking a relatively inclusive approach. In this specific case, the City of Philadelphia released a statement linking this murder to an "epidemic" of murders of trans people. That ought to be enough to include it here. --Jd4v15 (talk) 23:49, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
The current name "List of people being killed for being transgender" with the dogmatic interpretation for inclusion has made it impossible to list 2020 transgender or gender non-conforming people in the U.S.

Wikipedia is not a criminal court! Actually, the standard of the article right now goes way above a criminal court because mixed-motive is used to exclude deceased trans people.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:4D1A:7185:6C0D:5080 (talk) 18:59, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

You are mistaken. Mixed-motive examples are completely allowed but the motive still has to be verified in a Reliable Source. We cannot just presume a motive.If you can point out some examples of mixed-motive cases that have been improperly excluded then I'll be happy to add them.OrdinaryDecent (talk) 17:14, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

The media have reported the death of Nina Pop as a result of transphobia. You are stating that media reports don't count unless the police or court explicitly establish the transphobic motive.

I am saying accept the media reports. You're saying go by police & court statements.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 21:25, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Again, you are mistaken. The media reports, including the advocacy group source you just linked to, do not cite a motive for her death. They discuss the tragedy of her death and then discuss the problem of transphobia in more general terms without making unfounded allegations in the particular case. And absolutely no one has said that police or court statements are required. Note the inclusion of Selena Reyes-Hernandez as an example of an appropriate entry. Motive is known and verified through media reports by reliable sources. Once more information about the motive in Nina Pop's case is known, then it very likely will be appropriate for inclusion. But not until then or until the title of the page changes.OrdinaryDecent (talk) 22:45, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

"Pop’s killing is believed to be the 10th violent death of a transgender or gender-nonconforming person so far this year" is more than enough for me.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 22:54, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
The article states that "No motive has been disclosed yet, though McMillen said earlier that police were looking into the possibility of Pop's death being a hate crime", so based on this source at least, it seems too early to conclude that Pop was killed for being transgender (though I agree it sounds likely that was the case). Cordless Larry (talk) 07:12, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
Here is a more recent source, which states "Police haven't determined a motive, but they also haven't ruled out the possibility that her death was a hate crime". It also notes that "That consideration constitutes a mild victory because authorities so often ignore the fact that LGBTQ people are targeted; much like many Americans resist acknowledging that Black and Brown citizens are under attack, denying the existence of animus toward LGBTQ communities has become routine. As such, it's difficult to get officials to call a hate crime a hate crime".
Of course, another option would be to rename this article to remove the motive requirement, so that it's a list of transgender people who have been killed regardless of whether a transphobic motive was established. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:27, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
Right. The article has been given its current name with a bad faith stipulating a motive requirement by the police + court. It should be re-named to the List of trans homicides.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 16:27, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
Again, you are mistaken. Police or court sources have never been required nor has anyone suggested that they be required. All that is required is a reliable source stating the motive. Media sources are entirely appropriate and are indeed used in the majority of the entries on the list. If the name of the page is ever changed then the list can easily be made more inclusive given that various media sources already collect this information.OrdinaryDecent (talk) 18:46, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Hundreds of trans people you yourself deleted from this article were deleted because the reports were saying the death was from trans hatred of the killers and were listed similar trans homicides; reporters state that motives are being investigated by the police whereupon you jump for joy and delete the deceased trans person! "Police in Philadelphia are investigating the murder of Dominique "Rem'mie" Fells, a Black transgender woman." --2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 18:59, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Again, you are mistaken. Those entries were removed because the motives were unstated in the available reliable sources or because the known motives appeared to be unrelated to them being trans. And I do not jump for joy when I delete an entry. I patiently await further information. If you can point to specific individual examples that were improperly deleted then they can be discussed but the necessary information must be properly sourced. Wikipedia is not an investigative journalism site. We must limit ourselves to information from reliable sources. OrdinaryDecent (talk) 19:41, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Reliable sources generally don't attribute motives for these murders. Instead, they report the murder and connect it to an "epidemic of violence" against trans people (examples: 1, 2, 3). The idea that sources must state a motive is a requirement invented by a few Wikipedia editors; it does not reflect how actual sources handle the subject matter. That means the requirement is a form of editorial bias and thus violates WP:NPOV. If we were actually following the sources, we would not require a motive. --Jd4v15 (talk) 22:11, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

The requirement to source motive is implicit in the very title of the page. If we want to make the list more inclusive we must change the title. And the sources that link these deaths to an "epidemic of violence" do so in every single murder of a trans person even when the murder is known to be unrelated to gender identity. As is appropriate since those sources do not use as restrictive a title as we have here. We can't simply circumvent the current title by pretending like we're still using the old one when adding entries. OrdinaryDecent (talk) 08:23, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

I agree that the current title isn't working and needs to be changed. I don't think the current title should be used to justify major changes to the article when the title doesn't reflect RS usage and doesn't have consensus support. Until it's fixed, I think editors are capable of working on the understanding that the title isn't quite right and "reliable sources have linked the murder to the victim's trans status" is adequate for inclusion. We could update the article's lead paragraph to reflect this if that would help. --Jd4v15 (talk) 18:36, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

I haven't been through the process before, but it seems like the issue with this article might be a candidate for dispute resolution. I think we're unlikely to reach a genuine consensus and a false consensus will just lead to the same issues popping up again and again so it might be best to just go through the process, get some kind of final conclusion to it and proceed from there.OrdinaryDecent (talk) 21:16, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

"we need to talk about the hate towards trans people" such as Dominique “Rem’Mie” Fells in Pennsylvania.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:609F:B35B:467C:A139 (talk) 00:18, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

"[https://twitter.com/ewarren/status/1271547364147449859 The murder of Black trans women is a crisis.


"Say their names: Dominique “Rem’mie” Fells and Riah Milton." according to Elizabeth Warren.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:609F:B35B:467C:A139 (talk) 00:22, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Brayla Stone

Latest comment: 4 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Brayla Stone has been excluded from this article because "Police did not identify an alleged motive for the killing or state whether it was motivated by the victim’s gender identity." [4] Why are we afraid to clearly define the guideline for inclusion of victims into this article?--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:609F:B35B:467C:A139 (talk) 00:15, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

We aren't. The standard has been defined. Repeatedly. Again, I recommend taking advantage of the Wikipedia dispute resolution mechanisms. Those would probably be a better way to resolve this issue than us going back and forth on the talk page never convincing each other of anything.OrdinaryDecent (talk) 00:31, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Merci Richey

Latest comment: 4 years ago8 comments4 people in discussion

Merci Richey is among the 21 trans homicides so far in the United States in the year 2020. This article currently includes only trans homicides after police or court statements alleging transphobia. However, some editors such as User:OrdinaryDecent are falsely claiming that they are accepting "reliable sources" when they aren't!


Merci Richey will not rest in peace when her name is being erased.

"20-year-old arrested in the killing of transgender woman in east Oak Cliff", The Dallas Morning News, Jul 9, 2020 --2601:C4:C300:1BD0:609F:B35B:467C:A139 (talk) 23:25, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

No one erased her. She wasn't added in the first place. Also, please remember to restrict your comments to the issues and contents of the article and refrain from making personal attacks on other editors. You should also stop repeating your inaccurate claim the police or court sources are required. And again, I urge you to consider dispute resolution options. OrdinaryDecent (talk) 23:43, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

If police and court statements aren't the guidelines for inclusion in this article, then why are you removing Merci Richey and the 20 others?--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:609F:B35B:467C:A139 (talk) 23:51, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

I looked through the history and as far as I can tell Merci was never on the list so I'm not really sure what you're talking about. As for the others, some are on the list and others aren't. Depends on how much info we have for each case. Brayla Stone, for example, isn't on the list yet but almost certainly will be once certain information about her case is confirmed from a reliable source.OrdinaryDecent (talk) 00:05, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

The Advocate says Dustin Parker was killed as a result of anti-LGBTQ violence. What constitutes a reliable sources? Are you unwilling to spell out a clear guideline by hiding behind a glittering generality?--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:609F:B35B:467C:A139 (talk) 00:11, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Well, I'll admit that I am surprised. That article does describe an unsolved shooting of a cab driver as a hate crime based on absolutely no evidence. As astonishingly irresponsible as it is for a journalist to do that I fully admit that they article does in fact say that. No idea if The Advocate is considered a Reliable Source by Wikipedia standards so someone else is going to have the make the call on that one. But I fully concede that it says that.OrdinaryDecent (talk) 00:26, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

I think the Advocate is reliable for some purposes, but that particular article is very misleading. The title mentions "Trans murders". The first two sentences are about hate crimes against LGBTQ people. The third sentence and second paragraph are more specifically about murders of trans people. On the one hand, cab drivers are more likely to be victims of homicide while working than any other profession ([5]), on the other, Parker was killed by somebody who walked up to his vehicle (not a passenger), which suggests this may not be a "typical" case of a cabbie being killed. Kevin Bacon is also mentioned in the advocate article. Looking into that case, I don't find any suggestion that Bacon was trans. He was apparently a cis man who had sex with men who was murdered by a MSM psychopathic cannibal. Two other men had previously experienced very frightening encounters with Bacon's killer, but had escaped from his house relatively unscathed. The particular Advocate article under discussion is not a reliable source for the purposes of this list. Plantdrew (talk) 01:33, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
Aren't you demanding a motive reported based on police (probable cause) or court statement (beyond a reasonable doubt)? More importantly, aren't you dismissing reporters who draw a transphobic conclusion without a police or court statement?

You claim that if a reporter draws a transphobic conclusion without a police (probable cause) or court statement (beyond a reasonable doubt), then the reporter is unreliable.--24.99.88.86 (talk) 13:18, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Inclusion criteria wording

Latest comment: 4 years ago5 comments2 people in discussion

1. police statement

2. court statement

3. What else?

--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 00:35, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

  • Reverted one more time. Your insistence on a formal finding by the justice system is overkill. You asked above why some entries were removed. In the edit you cited, the entries came from an activist source HRC. Once again, the scope of HRC's list is much wider than the scope of this article. In some cases, like the killing of Dwayne Jones in Jamaica, independent reliable media sources can say what happened. Sources don't need to be official. They need to be objective with good reputations for fact checking. • Gene93k (talk) 20:14, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Good reputation for fact checking is the key standard in WP:reliable sources in support of WP:verifiability, a Wikipedia core content policy. These should be the guiding standards for whether a person should be included on any list or category. Official findings are relevant for defining crime as murder or terrorism and WP:BLPCRIME applies to naming living perpetrators. Since these are not the current standards of the list, reliably-sourced verifiability should be the main, if not the only, inclusion standard. • Gene93k (talk) 17:11, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
If a 3rd criterion exists, then the article may state it.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 20:02, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Michelle "Tamika" Washington

Latest comment: 3 years ago12 comments4 people in discussion

I see that Michelle "Tamika" Washington was present in this list earlier this year (as of March 6[6]) but her name was removed at some point later, after the page name was changed. I wonder if her name should be re-added back. I am currently looking at the June 5, 2019 Philadephia Inquirerer article which details a court hearing of the person accused of her murder. The alleged perpetrator made a confession of sorts during the hearing: "Bailey, who told detectives that he knew the victim as Michelle, said he was supposed to sell a gun to her boyfriend, according to the summary. He claimed that Washington then wanted him to perform a sex act. He said that he got angry and so did she, and that she then pulled out a folding knife and he shot her more than once, according to the summary." Although he probably meant it as an excuse for his anger, it actually sounds to me like he is kind of admitting to a hate crime, at least in part. The article also says: "After the hearing, Toczylowski [Assistant DA] declined to comment on whether authorities believed Bailey’s statement about what happened before he shot Washington." I am not quite sure quite how to interpret this information, but I'd like to hear what other editors think. If it were just up to me, I'd re-add her name to the list. Nsk92 (talk) 21:19, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

It's not for Wikipedia to publish its own analysis of what he said there, nor the DA. --Equivamp - talk 23:46, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
We don't have to analyze it. We could include the name and summarize the circumstances, based on the available reporting. Nsk92 (talk) 23:48, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
Are there RS that say she was killed for being transgender? --Equivamp - talk 23:49, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
You mean, using that actual phrase, "for being transgender"? Certainly not. But I don't think that there exist such RS for most other entries present in this list, and I think it would be unreasonable for us to insist on the existence of such precise language for inclusion. Nsk92 (talk) 23:54, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
The wording doesn't have to be verbatim, but the source you've listed specifically says that the authorities did not believe that her being trans was relevant to the killing and isn't making an argument otherwise. --Equivamp - talk 23:59, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
I don't see anything in this article saying that "the authorities did not believe that her being trans was relevant to the killing". The only statement I see from the authorities there on the question of the motive is a 'no comment' type statement: "[Assistant DA] declined to comment on whether authorities believed Bailey’s statement about what happened before he shot Washington." But the ADA did not actually contradict the statement made by the defendant regarding the motive. (Although the article does say that the victim's sister did not believe the defendant's account.) Nsk92 (talk) 00:13, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
I personally think the source is a bit too vague. Can't say I'd have any special objection to her inclusion, but I think the available source seems a little too ambiguous. I looked around a bit and can't really find a better source either.OrdinaryDecent (talk) 00:47, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
You're right, it was my mistake, I was actually reading a different article, also from the Philadelphia Inquirer, which was linked as a related story in the one you linked. Here it says, [D]etectives are not investigating the shooting as a hate crime and don’t believe Washington’s gender identity to be the motivation for the killing. --Equivamp - talk 01:48, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
  • Reports at the time said her death wasn't related to her being trans, but obviously that was before the court hearing you mention. Later sources do seem to list her as having been killed for being transgender, although many of the lists are a bit vaguely-worded; this paper says "The idea that a person can be aggressed because of the aesthetic that they choose to adopt is repugnant for the modern sensibility. Still, we can speak about a degree of violence related to queer outfits and the stories of this CI showed it clearly. Also, well-known cases were mentioned in the CI, where the most outrageous example was the series of hate crimes which are committed against Trans persons all over the world. The last case was dated three days before, when Michelle Washington, a Trans woman, was killed in Philadelphia. Likewise, this article includes her in a list that ends with As of this article’s publication, these are the 22 reported victims of anti-transgender violence in the United States. However, there may be more victims who have not been reported or have not been claimed as anti-transgender violence. This implies to me that at least some other reliable sources reached the same conclusion you did. --Aquillion (talk) 00:08, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
Yes, I actually wanted to raise a similar point regarding the timing but then forgot about this thread. The article Equivamp cites above is from May 21, 2019. The article mentioned in my original post in this thread is from June 5, 2019, after a rather consequential court hearing has taken place. As a general remark, I've been thinking that maybe it is time to have an RfC to see what the editors think about the current title of this page, how the move to the title has been working out, and if perhaps some changes are needed. Nsk92 (talk) 00:17, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
I mean, the only change that would address this is to make it into "List of transgender people who were killed" or the like, which does make the WP:LISTCRITERIA more unambiguous. I suppose topical relevance could be argued with the fact that numerous other sources maintain such lists, but it reminds me a bit of Excess mortality in the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin in that, while it decisively solves the problem of scope, it also results in an article or list that feels slightly parallel to its actual topic. --Aquillion (talk) 07:28, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Trans Lives Matter?

Latest comment: 3 years ago10 comments6 people in discussion

Why are following deaths in 2020 in the United States excluded despite sources like ABC, NBC, CNN, PinkNews, HRC, cbc.ca, upi.com?

  • Dustin Parker, 25, was fatally shot in McAlester, Oklahoma, early on New Year’s Day. His employers released a statement shortly after his death, remembering Parker as “a steadfast friend, an amazing husband and father and generous to a fault. He loved fiercely, worked tirelessly and took on life with so much hope and enthusiasm that his presence brightened all of our lives.”
  • Neulisa Luciano Ruiz, was fatally shot in Toa Baja, Puerto Rico on February 24. According to Metro Puerto Rico, members of her community knew her as "humble" and "noble."
  • Yampi Méndez Arocho, 19, was killed in Moca, Puerto Rico, on March 5. Arocho, a transgender man, shared his love for basketball and the NBA -- donning Miami Heat apparel on social media. The biography line on his Facebook reads simply, “Humility Prevails.”
  • Monika Diamond, 34, a Black transgender woman, was killed in Charlotte, North Carolina on March 18. Diamond was active in the Charlotte LGBTQ and nightlife community and was the co-owner of an event promotion company. She also was the co-CEO of the International Mother of the Year Pageantry System -- a pageant that honors LGBTQ mothers.
  • Lexi, 33, a transgender woman, was killed in Harlem, New York on March 28. According to reports, Lexi was fatally stabbed in Harlem River Park. “I really looked up to her because of her tolerance and respect,” said Lavonia Brooks, a friend of Lexi. “Lexi had a beautiful heart, she was very gifted.” Brooks also noted that Lexi loved poetry, makeup and fashion.
  • Johanna Metzger, a transgender woman, was killed in Baltimore, Maryland on April 11. According to reports, she was visiting a Baltimore recovery center from Pennsylvania at the time. Johanna was known for her love of music and taught herself to play multiple instruments.
  • Serena Angelique Velázquez Ramos, 32, was killed in Puerto Rico on April 21. Ramos was killed alongside Layla Pelaez Sánchez, 21. According to reports, Ramos was visiting the island on vacation, and was set to return to her home in Queens, New York, at the end of the month. Loved ones are mourning her death, calling her “full of life,” a “happy person,” and a “sincere friend.” On May 1, two men were charged under federal hate crimes law for Ramos's death.
  • Layla Pelaez Sánchez, 21, was killed in Puerto Rico on April 21. Sánchez was killed alongside Serena Angelique Velázquez Ramos. According to reports, Sánchez had recently moved to the island, and was living in the Tejas neighborhood in Las Piedras. On May 1, two Puerto Rican men were charged under federal hate crimes law for Sánchez's death.
  • Penélope Díaz Ramírez, a transgender woman, was killed in Puerto Rico on April 13.
  • Nina Pop, a Black transgender woman, was killed in Sikeston, Missouri, on May 3.
  • Helle Jae O’Regan, 20, a transgender woman, was killed in San Antonio, Texas, on May 6. O’Regan was proud of her trans identity and on Twitter, she often spoke out against injustice, including the LGBTQ inequality, the prison industrial complex and the need to decriminalize sex work. Damion Terrell Campbell, 42, has been charged with O’Regan’s murder.
  • Tony McDade, a Black transgender man, was killed in Tallhassee, Florida, on May 27. His friends and family shared how he was an energetic, giving person with a big heart.
  • Dominique “Rem'mie” Fells, a Black transgender woman was killed in Philadelphia, Pennsyania, on June 9. One personal friend posted online, “Dom was a unique and beautiful soul who I am lucky to have known personally. I am beside myself right now. We need to fight!! We need to do more!!!! We will get justice.”
  • Riah Milton, a 25-year-old Black transgender woman, was killed in Liberty Township, Ohio on June 9. In March, she posted the status “Never been scared to struggle. Imma get it eventually” -- a comment highlighting her resilience and optimism as a person facing a transphobic, misogynist and racist society.
  • Jayne Thompson, a 33-year old white transgender woman, was killed in Mesa County, Colorado, on May 9. She was killed by a Colorado State Patrol trooper and misgendered in initial news reports.


  • Selena Reyes-Hernandez, a 37-year old transgender woman, was killed in Chicago on May 31. “We have lost a beloved member of our trans family because of hate -- hate that has corrupted our country’s soul and that shatters lives and futures every day,” said Tori Cooper, HRC director of community engagement for the Transgender Justice Initiative.
  • Brian “Egypt’ Powers, a 43-year old Black transgender person, was killed in Akron, Ohio, on June 13. Powers worked at a local catering company and is remembered for wearing long, colorful braids -- “unicorn braids,” as Powers called them.
  • Brayla Stone, a 17-year old Black transgender girl, was found killed in Little Rock, Arkansas, on June 25. “Brayla Stone was a child. A child, just beginning to live her life. A child of trans experience. A Black girl. A person who had hopes and dreams, plans and community,” said Tori Cooper, HRC director of community engagement for the Transgender Justice Initiative.
  • Merci Mack, a 22-year old Black transgender woman, was killed in Dallas, Texas, on June 30. Her loved ones shared how beautiful of a friend she was. On her social media, she had recently posted that she enjoyed baking and that she was looking forward to returning to work. On July 8, a man was arrested on a murder charge in connection to her death.
  • Shaki Peters, a 32-year old Black transgender woman, was killed in Amite CIty, Louisiana, on July 1. “In just four days, we have seen the deaths of at least three transgender and gender non-conforming people, including Shaki Peters. This horrific spike in violence against our community must be an urgent call to action for every single person in this nation,” said Tori Cooper, Director of Community Engagement for HRC’s Trans Justice Initiative.
  • Bree Black, a 27-year-old Black transgender woman, was killed in Pompano Beach, Florida, on July 3. “These killings are being fueled by the deadly combination of racism and transphobia, and they must cease. We must come together as a community and demand justice for those who were taken from us,” said Tori Cooper, Director of Community Engagement for HRC’s Trans Justice Initiative.
  • Summer Taylor, a white non-binary person, was in Seattle, Washington, on July 4. Taylor was participating in the Black Femme March in solidarity with Black Lives Matter and against police brutality. Taylor worked full time at Urban Animal veterinary hospital.
  • Marilyn Cazares was a transgender Latina killed in Brawley, California. Mindy Garcia, an aunt of Cazares, said she “loved to sing and dance” and “never bothered anyone.”
  • Dior H Ova, who some reports identify as Tiffany Harris, a Black transgender woman, was killed in the Bronx, New York. According to her Facebook, Ova loved fashion -- listing her career as a personal shopper and posting photos with luxury fashion brands that she loved. On August 13, a man was arrested on a murder charge in connection to her death.
  • Queasha D Hardy, a 22-year old Black transgender woman, was killed in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, on July 27. Hardy, a hairstylist, was extremely loved by her community. Friends and loved ones describe her as loyal, loving, “always smiling,” “the life of all parties” and “truly one of a kind.”
  • Aja Raquell Rhone-Spears, who sometimes used the name Rocky Rhone, a Black transgender woman, was killed in Portland, Oregon, on July 28. According to Facebook, she studied at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas, and was the owner and founder of International Barbie, a Portland-based clothing brand. "Murdered for Being Transgender according to People (magazine). Of course, some Wikipedia editors don't care!

The above list is incomplete. https://tdor.translivesmatter.info/reports has more dead trans people in year 2020.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 02:06, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

  • You just listed 25 entries with one connected to a specific source. From a partial sampling: Aja Raquell Rhone-Spears: family says - People does not state as a fact in its own voice; Riah Milton - NBC sources says robbery; Dominique "Rem'mie" Fells - same NBC source does not state transphobic violence as motive. As for Trans Lives Matter, it's another activist site with a different scope and purpose than Wikipedia. • Gene93k (talk) 17:27, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
Summer Taylor was at a protest and was killed when a car drove into the crowd. The driver was not targetting her specifically; she was not "killed for being transgender". Jayne Thompson was experiencing some sort of distress, and was killed by a police officer while she was holding a knife. Police killing distressed people holding weapons is sadly too common, but there isn't any indication that her trans status had anything to do with her death (she was misgendered for weeks in reports of the killing. Was the police officer even aware she was trans?). I discussed Dustin Parker's case in a previous thread. He worked as a cab driver, a profession which has the highest rate of employees murdered while working; was Parker killed for being trans, or because of his profession? This is not a list of every trans person who has been killed. Plantdrew (talk) 17:41, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Assuming bad faith of other editors is disruptive behavior. One more time: try to get consensus though discussion. Your last edit also implicitly changed scope of this list. Editor consensus here does not support that either. • Gene93k (talk) 22:01, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Your insistence on enumerating allowed sources goes against the spirit of WP:V and WP:RS. Supported by reliable sources applies to all published Wikipedia lists. Wikipedia content should be verifiable. That is a policy that should not need to be stated in article prose. • Gene93k (talk) 22:07, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
Your insistence on not defining the criteria for inclusion makes no sense?--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 22:22, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
Disruptive or not, this anonymous editor has a point. If "explicit attribution of motive by reliable sources" is our requirement (and it shouldn't be, since it's not normal RS practice and we don't have consensus for it), then the article ought to say so, because it would exclude most murders of trans people, even when their trans status is a factor in their deaths. A user who finds this page while researching violence against trans people will be misinformed about the scope and scale of that violence, since so many victims would be excluded from the list. A note in the lede about scope/exclusions is inadequate, but marginally less misleading. --Jd4v15 (talk) 22:37, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

I concur with a need for WP:V. Confirming it as a hate crime. This list is too long already. Zezen (talk) 21:53, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

In 2020, ABC News "independently confirmed 34 violent deaths of transgender and gender non-conforming people in 2020 at the time of publication." This was published by Good Morning America. https://www.goodmorningamerica.com/news/story/transgender-day-remembrance-honors-lives-lost-marking-staggering-74253969 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:C4:C300:1BD0:656A:420D:A1FA:7075 (talk) 22:41, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Chyna Carrillo

Latest comment: 3 years ago58 comments11 people in discussion

It is standard procedure for police to

  • call a murderer "suspect"
  • say "alleged" killer
  • not state the motive

even if the murder is recorded on camera in broad daylight. Once again, folks were stating that we are not demanding indictment & court conviction for victims. If so, then there is no reason to remove Chyna Carrillo.

On the other hand, if the indictment and criminal conviction with transphobic motive is a requisite for inclusion in the article, then the article introduction must specify the guideline instead of obfuscating and creating murky grounds ripe for edit wars.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 21:39, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with all of the details of this case, but here's a news article seeming to indicate that this was a domestic violence case and not a hate crime so it wouldn't fit the page: https://www.wkbn.com/news/local-news/police-murder-in-new-wilmington-does-not-appear-to-be-a-hate-crime/ But I don't know that it's the most current information. Anyone got a source saying otherwise?OrdinaryDecent (talk) 22:51, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

You can't hate your domestic partner? Sounds like the argument that you can't rape your spouse.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 23:10, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
If the police department refused to classify this is a hate crime, it doesn't make it a non-hate crime. Remember that the 2009 Fort Hood shooting was not classified as a terrorist incident by the government in 2009! Now that the police department has realized that the victim was a trans woman, they're walking back. I think some police officers were expecting the police officer to join in the murder. The police department is now about to punish the police officer and have placed him on administrative leave!--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 23:18, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Derek Chauvin and George Floyd knew each other. Now, Derek Chauvin is even more guilty.
  • Chyna Carrillo and Juan Carter Hernandez knew each other. Therefore, local police says that Juan Carter Hernandez was not motivated by hate! This logic of the New Wilmington police department shows that the local police department is hateful by claiming that the domestic violence and hate crime are mutually exclusive. Even if Chyna Carrillo and Juan Carter Hernandez were husband and wife residing at the same address, it is mindboggling that the local police want to join the murderer's defense team.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 00:18, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
It doesn't matter whether hate crimes and DV are mutually exclusive. Are there reliable sources stating that she was killed for being transgender or not? --Equivamp - talk 00:38, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
I looked a bit and didn't find any sources claiming that the killer was motivated by transphobia. But I didn't do an exhaustive search. Articles I saw discussed the details of the killing, the prior killing by the same individual and the domestic relationship between the killer and the victim but gave no clear motive in the instant case. His prompt death likely means that additional information will not be forthcoming.OrdinaryDecent (talk) 07:25, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
All the sources are stating that the killing of the victim was motivated by transphobia. At the same time, they state that the New Wilmington police department didn't chalk up the murder to transphobia.

If you demand police attribution of the motive or a criminal indictment in court, then the introduction needs to say so like it used to "This is a worldwide list of trans homicides after police or court statements alleging transphobia. "

--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 02:06, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 12:43, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

  • Wikipedia editors don't demand police attribution. They do require factual statement from sources with good fact checking reputations. The reliable sources listed above note that Carrillo was murdered and they note the overall trend of violence of against trans people. However only statements that say Carrillo was a victim of a hate crime come from reactions from supporters and a politician. The reliable sources also note a lack of evidence that the murder was a hate crime. Final note: I do not include HRC and other activist sources as reliable references for facts. • Gene93k (talk) 13:27, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
You reject HRC which shows that you oppose trans rights.

Please provide 3 examples of dead people in the article which don't have police or court attribution, but the are more than 3 celebrities claiming the murders were due to transphobia.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 14:04, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

  • From the list: Raina Aliev - attributed to press ; Dwayne Jones - lynching attributed to press ; Amna and Meeno - torture by police attributed to press. Official corroboration is good to have, but independent reliable sources are better. • Gene93k (talk) 15:06, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Celebrity or prominence does not make the speaker WP:RELIABLE for Wikipedia purposes. In the Carrillo case, they are making a factual leap not supported by evidence. • Gene93k (talk) 15:06, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
Okay. Let's do this. I will be the devil's advocate in the case of Raina Aliev that you bring up?

Who killed her?

Her father and family didn't kill her. Did they? The article doesn't say so.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/transgender-woman-hacked-death-days-9168649


--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 17:16, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

  • The sources cited name transphobia as a likely motive, given the multiple death threats further boosted by the "purman" edict from Aliev's family. Authorities didn't protect Raina Aliev and they are unlikely to bring her killer(s) to justice. Back on topic with Chyna Carrillo, sources don't provide even that much. The list entry is resting on a "we must do something" declaration by a politician following the crime. Again, sources note the lack of evidence of the killing being an anti-trans hate crime. • Gene93k (talk) 23:38, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
You are trying to establish criteria that will keep transphobic deaths from the United States to zero. The United States is not a fourth world Chechnya or Afghanistan type of place where honor killing and so on rule. I maintain my objection to your attempt to remove the one (1) most notable and atrocious trans woman death this year.

In the year 2020, we had "37 transgender and gender-nonconforming people have been killed this year" as of November 20th 2020 according to Joe Biden's agreement [7]. I am trying to compromise with you on not listing every single one; however, when you insist on excluding 100% of these transphobic deaths, then I feel inclined to debate you since it seems than you demand nothing less than removing everyone from the victim list.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 00:19, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

This is not a list of transgender people who have been killed; this is a list of people who have been killed for being transgender. --Equivamp - talk 00:22, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
Sometimes there is an overlap. I disagree with your attempt to establish hard boundaries and being judgmental by ruling out transphobia.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 00:28, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
First, you need to stop casting WP:ASPERSIONS and remember editors are expected to assume good faith from each other; doing so is disruptive and impedes discussion. Second, I'm not sure what you think I'm ruling out. It's not up to Wikipedia editors to analyze whether a specific murder was due to being trans or not - we have to rely on sources actually saying so. --Equivamp - talk 00:36, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
  • The sources I listed above do list anti-trans violence. In another recent death, "first thing reported about her by local media was the one thing I never wanted to hear: the deadname she was assigned at birth" [8]. So, if I state very plainly that the local police department is transphobic, then you state that I am casting aspersion?--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 00:43, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
No, you're casting aspersions against editors you're talking to. Please make sure you understand Wikipedia's policies about talk page conduct. --Equivamp - talk 13:12, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
  • From our policy on original research:

    Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source.

    That the victim was a trans person might qualify the killing as "anti-trans" for some sources but the criteria for inclusion in this article are that being a trans person was the reason for the killing as verifiable by reliable sources. I checked all of the links (except those I can't access for HTTP 451 reasons) and all we can verify from those is that 1) she was trans and 2) she was killed. Which is unfortunate but as I pointed out on this page before, thousands of trans persons are killed unlawfully every year but in most cases, their deaths have nothing to do with them being trans. In this case, based on all available sources, I think it's much more likely that the killer who was living with her and thus most likely well aware of her being trans was just an a****** who enjoyed beating women, regardless of whether they were cis or trans (seeing as he was previously sentenced to 8-10 years for killing his wife). No one is arguing that her death was not tragic but so far you have not provided any sources that link the killing to her being trans. Regards SoWhy 13:46, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
As I stated before, I am more than happy to debate you because your hardline stance demanding 100% exclusion of anti-trans violence after year 2020 deserves nothing less than my full attention and guidance towards light.
You claim, "you have not provided any sources that link the killing to her being trans." Of course, I have,
  1. Jose Soto of HRC [9]
  2. Linda Darling-Hammond
  3. Megan Godfrey
  4. Gwendolyn Ann Smith
...
--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 16:00, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
The HRC source doesn't state anywhere that she was killed for being trans, just that she was trans and she was killed. The other things you linked are just other Wikipedia articles...? --Equivamp - talk 16:16, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
"There is a lot of heartbreak in Springdale today. We need a hate crimes law that protects all, including transgender Arkansans, from hate-motivated violence. And we don’t need laws that permit & embolden discrimination against trans Arkansans. ❤️ to the family of Chyna Carrillo." --Megan Godfrey tweet --2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 17:49, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
Unfortunately, that is not a reliable source, as self-published sources cannot be used for claims about third parties. (It also doesn't actually say that Carrillo's murder was "hate-motivated violence", though it does imply it) --Equivamp - talk 19:23, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
I don't know about your familiarity with US network news sources. Network broadcast sources like ABC, NBC, CBS, and Fox have locate affiliates (Big_Three_television_networks#Fox). Megan Godfrey's statement has been published by the local Fox Broadcasting affiliate that publish local stories. [10] --2601:C4:C300:1BD0:4C8F:CA4A:AD98:6994 (talk) 22:16, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
But the source is just reporting on what was said by the politician, and still runs into the problem of not going as far as to call Carrillo's murder as one motivated by transphobia. If it did, I would favor including the event, with in-text attribution to the source(s) describing it as such, as well as stating the police interpretation of motive. --Equivamp - talk 00:06, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
We have several notable people stating transmisogyny as the motive which we don't have for Raina Aliev. Cavilling over terminology & refusing to use logic is the reason that mainstream sources have reported about 8 transphobic deaths while you refuse to admit the most atrocious one into the list.

You're sitting here & trying to differentiate between

  • Anti-trans violence
  • Hate-motivated crime
  • Domestic violence
  • Transphobia
  • transmisogyny

because Juan Carter Hernandez had killed his first wife, now he is a saint who is an equal opportunity hater of all women and not just trans woman!--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:4C8F:CA4A:AD98:6994 (talk) 00:48, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

I'm not trying to differentiate between anything; that would be original research, which is not done here, and which is what you're trying to do. You don't have the sources needed to include Carrillo here. FWIW, I've looked a few times myself and didn't find anything sufficient either. --Equivamp - talk 01:06, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
Raina Aliev has no notable person claiming transphobia. Don't we have some news reporters doing original research when we don't even know the identity of her mudererer(s) with certitude? Why don't your remove Raina Aliev?--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:4C8F:CA4A:AD98:6994 (talk) 01:47, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
I'm not responsible for nor aware of every single incident/source on this list. Something else not fitting doesn't mean we should add more things that don't belong. Looking at Raina Aliev, the sources are all directly attributing her murder to her father's transphobia. Yes, reliable sources do research, and that's what Wikipedia publishes - it's Wikipedia editors who are not supposed to do our own research. We just publish what the reliable sources say. --Equivamp - talk 02:05, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
As an unbiased editor, you are responsible for collaborating with me on a coherent guideline for inclusion of victim's into the list. I am ready to work with you on coming up with a guideline that is easy to understand & follow to decide which deaths are included & which ones are excluded.

No problem is your "reliable sources" guideline doesn't work with Raina Aliev. Do you agree that

  1. Probable cause - police attribution
  2. Criminal indictment - start of a court case
  3. Criminal conviction - beyond a reasonable doubt
  4. Attribution from a notable person who has a Wikipedia article in their name.


So, why do you object to "Attribution from a notable person who has a Wikipedia article in their name" like

  1. Linda Darling-Hammond
  2. Megan Godfrey
  3. Gwendolyn Ann Smith

?--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:4C8F:CA4A:AD98:6994 (talk) 02:30, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

I think the criterion for inclusion is a simple one: WP:RS that say -- actually say -- that a person being transgender was a motivating factor in their killing. You can read about identifying what counts at Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources, and check WP:RSP for whether a specific source is useable or not. --Equivamp - talk 02:45, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
Your criterion doesn't work for Raina Aliev--very obviously! So, hearsay from neighbors doesn't positively establish who even murdered her. Your "reliable sources" criteria is most unreliable & fuzzy. It's is unraveling--I'm sorry to say. You prefer hearsay to Linda Darling-Hammond? (Scratching & shaking my head.)

Don't rush. Think through this. Sleep and come up with a good set of criteria that can be applied without doing the original research that we claim each of us is doing.

Demanding a fatwa-like pronouncements like those from the Council of Islamic Ideology and Raina Aliev's father will not work in civilized societies like the United States. --2601:C4:C300:1BD0:4C8F:CA4A:AD98:6994 (talk) 02:56, 9 March 2021 (UTC)


In case if you are interested, "purman" in the Raina Aliev case is not a workable criterion.

https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%81%D8%B1%D9%85%D8%A7%D9%86

By the way, "purman" is the Chechen bastardization of the word Firman. Do you want to issuance of a Firman or fatwa before the victim's death?

--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:4C8F:CA4A:AD98:6994 (talk) 03:03, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

You're being disruptive, now. If you can't provide any reliable sources stating that she was killed for being transgender, then she can't be included on a list of people who were killed for being transgender. And that is all I need to say. --Equivamp - talk 03:11, 9 March 2021 (UTC)


The "reliable sources" criterion hasn't worked for the other dead people on the list. I want a streamlined guidance for inclusion that isn't murky. That is like saying that Trump isn't racist because Al Sharpton called him so. We can state that Al Sharpton calls Trump a bigot and racist but Trump denies it. We don't need to remove the claim & dismiss Al Sharpton as unreliable.

Similarly, we can say that Chyna Carrillo was killed. Afterwards, the New Wilmington police department ruled out transphobia while social justice warriors Linda Darling-Hammond & Megan Godfrey or virtue signalling people blamed transphobia. --2601:C4:C300:1BD0:4C8F:CA4A:AD98:6994 (talk) 03:23, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

2601:C4:C300:1BD0:4C8F:CA4A:AD98:6994 is continually reverting edits removing Chyna Carillo from the page. This is unproductive entirely and there is no evidence for Carillo's inclusion. 2601 does not understand NPOV as a policy, which is inapplicable to discussion of whether a person is eligible for inclusion on the page. AntiChirality (talk) 15:49, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

They also don't appear to understand the reliable sourcing policies. This seems like a WP:CIR issue. But maybe a third opinion would be beneficial? The formatting of this talk page section is an awful mess, though, so I don't envy anyone coming and trying to make sense of things... --Equivamp - talk 17:38, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
Chyna Carillo was killed in a small town in Pennsylvania. The police jumped to the killer's defense after her murders. Multiple notable people such as Linda Darling-Hammond & Megan Godfrey are saying there was bias because of the victim's sex. This is a very high standard that hasn't been met by numerous others on the list after the previous rampages of the pages.
When the Associated Press, NBC, and MSNBC respect the expertise of the Human Rights Campaign [11] and some of you all reject HRC as a fringe group, then I am greatly alarmed at your level of bias.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:4C8F:CA4A:AD98:6994 (talk) 18:09, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
The HRC link you provided does not mention Carrillo. I remember you trying to cite Godfrey and linked a quote where she did not actually attribute Carrillo's murder to her being trans. Who is Linda Darling-Hammond and which statements are you referring to? (And for the record, since you mentioned their "notability": having an article on Wikipedia is not the same thing as being a reliable source for a given topic.) --Equivamp - talk 18:17, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
My error. Not Linda Darling-Hammond. It's Kia.
“Chyna Carrillo was supposed to be embarking on new adventures in Pennsylvania,” said Dr. Kia Darling-Hammond, director of education programs and research at NBJC. “She was 24, full of life, and full of promise. Her friends say she had a contagious smile. It is devastating that a move that should have been a beginning in life put her in the path of that man’s rage and destruction. It’s a sign of our failure as a society. Chyna should be alive.”
“Chyna’s murder marks the grim milestone of four times the number of deaths we saw this time last year, a stark reminder of the misogyny and transphobia prevalent in American society and how urgent our work is. While 2020 was the deadliest year for trans, nonbinary, and gender nonconforming people on record, not only is the record likely incomplete, but 2021 has already begun to outstrip it. It is time to take a stand, both locally and federally, to protect our trans, nonbinary, and gender nonconforming communities,” added Dr. Darling-Hammond https://nbjc.org/the-national-black-justice-coalition-grieves-the-death-of-chyna-carrillo/
--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:4C8F:CA4A:AD98:6994 (talk) 18:32, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
You're missing a critical distinction here. It is entirely possible for the murder of trans people, in general, to reflect a culture that devalues transgender people. To give a parallel, one can report on the number of women killed by domestic violence to illustrate a misogynistic culture without claiming that any given DV victim was murdered because of her gender. --Equivamp - talk 18:50, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
Being a cis woman doesn't disadvantage a woman while being a trans woman put a woman at massive disadvantage as see by the pending confirmation of Rachel Levine. The list on the article can't be at such odds with HRC's list so grotesquely that one list may list around 50 deaths ("last year’s total number of 44 deaths, which marked 2020 as the deadliest year on record for our community."[12]) while you won't permit one death and set outrageously opaque criteria that I can't understand with your "reliable sources" mantra and smokescreen. (This is your facade that you and I will dissect through over the next few weeks.)--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:4C8F:CA4A:AD98:6994 (talk) 18:59, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
Weeks? Really now? No need to WP:BLUDGEON the process. At some point everyone will have to do something else with that horse carcass. This article hasn't been on my watchlist very long and I haven't thoroughly examined it yet. If there are other items on the list which don't have reliable sourcing for inclusion, by all means tag them as such (I'd suggest removing them yourself, but you admittedly don't understand the relevant policies, so you risk doing further damage that way). --Equivamp - talk 19:28, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
  • IP, the sources clearly don't state that she was killed for being transgender; they're all very carefully-worded. Rather than focus on that, what I think your sources show is that the primary topic for this list ought to be reverted back to something like "List of murdered transgender people" or the like. Most of the sources seem to list and group deaths based on that criteria rather than the one we use here, and they often explain why specifically (eg. [13].) A straightforward list of such deaths better fits WP:LISTCRIT's requirement that the criteria be unambiguous, and the heavy specific coverage of such deaths (regardless of the reason they were killed) shows that it is a topic suitable for a list. Meanwhile, the constant bickering over inclusion / exclusion since the rename has shown that the rename isn't working because, first, the new criteria isn't clear enough, and second, it doesn't reflect the way most sources group such deaths (which is to list all trans murder victims and leave the in-depth analysis of why those deaths occurred and, therefore, what they mean to others.) --Aquillion (talk) 19:55, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
This isn't new. I brought this up before in Talk:List_of_people_killed_for_being_transgender#Requested_move_6_June_2020. After 3 failed attempts to delete this article, transphobic editors have established a way to maintain zero American victims on the list by maintaining a silly name and mandates criminal proof.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:4C8F:CA4A:AD98:6994 (talk) 20:06, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
If you failed three times, it seems consensus really is against changing the scope of the article to something you think is correct. But at some point, you need to accept that this article will never be the one you want it to be and stop edit-warring about it. Otherwise, you will most likely sooner or later be prevented from editing the article at all. Regards SoWhy 20:22, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
I think that the article isn't meant to maintain zero American trans victims on the list. Am I wrong?--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:4C8F:CA4A:AD98:6994 (talk) 20:44, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
The article is "meant to" be a list of people killed *for* being transgender. The specific distribution of nationality is entirely irrelevant. I am not sure what the point of this argument is and I have no desire to further engage in edit warring with you. AntiChirality (talk) 03:06, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
"a list of people killed *for* being transgender" is an absurd criterion for American victims. Setting up to fail article is an apropos description.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:580:915F:858B:B783 (talk) 00:27, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
You have made your disagreement with the criteria clear. However, you need to accept the fact that the consensus is against you as the previous discussions have proven. And as long as these are in fact the criteria, you and I and everyone else have to abide by them. Even if you disagree with them. Regards SoWhy 17:35, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
Bullying and hooliganism doesn't constitute consensus.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:656A:420D:A1FA:7075 (talk) 22:34, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
Consensus is reached by a variety of people (often with diverse perspectives) attempting to reach agreement on an issue. Entering every single discussion on a talk page to repeat your opinions is not consensus. It seems that, of the 664 edits in the history of this talk page, you have made a whopping 103. As the person with the second most edits has 42, it does not seem likely that you are being BLUDGEONed; in fact, I would say the exact opposite is true. jp×g 00:09, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
Please enumerate the consensus. One reporter may say that a death was due to transphobia while another reporter may say that a death was not due to transphobia. The all cis-police force that won't even hire a trans woman in the village that Chyna Carrillo was murdered in broad daylight has made an official pronouncement and refused to investigate. --2601:C4:C300:1BD0:656A:420D:A1FA:7075 (talk) 00:17, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Demolition operations on the article

Latest comment: 3 years ago28 comments7 people in discussion
I won't revert again to avoid violating 3RR. The inclusion criteria for this list is clear and based on consensus, and your belief that the criteria is 'absurd' does not give you the right to ignore that consensus. If you disagree with the inclusion criteria you are welcome to use the talk page and try to find consensus for a different criteria. Paisarepa 23:07, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for stopping by. You and I will work to hammer out an inclusion criteria that is laid out plainly.

  1. Police attribution - probable cause
  2. Criminal conviction - beyond a reasonable doubt
  3. civil liability - preponderance of evidence
  4. edict, firman, or fatwa calling for death
  5. Attribution by politician, for example, Joe Biden or Nancy Pelosi
  6. News Source confirmation like ABC News or the Washington Post

Which one of these do you object to? --2601:C4:C300:1BD0:656A:420D:A1FA:7075 (talk) 23:13, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

No, we won't hammer out an inclusion criteria. There is already a consensus-based inclusion criteria which stands until a new consensus-based criteria exists. Two editors do not consensus make, even if we did come to an agreement. Paisarepa 23:16, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
The consensus was not reached. The lack of consensus is the reason behind the variance between ABC News reports in 2020 versus this article on transphobic deaths. The ABC News report has more than 3 times as many transphobic deaths.[14]

--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:656A:420D:A1FA:7075 (talk) 23:20, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

The disparity between this article and the ABC article is that this article includes only those who were killed for being transgender. I see you've had this conversation multiple times here on the talk page which makes your continued changes blatant disruptive editing. Paisarepa 23:30, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
Yes. I work on this article for several decades.

The ABC article makes it plain that those listed were killed because of transphobic bias. I understand it to be that the deaths were no coincidence. Killed "for being transgender" is not plain at all. By your standards, the deaths were flukes yet by my standards sexism caused the death. (It's even possible that you may assert that transphobia isn't sexism as Jeff Sessions would have said while Neil Gorsuch would concur with me.)

Different people can look at a death and attribute the murder to different causes. The criminal judge in the O. J. Simpson murder case case said OJ was innocent while the civil judge said OJ was liable! --2601:C4:C300:1BD0:656A:420D:A1FA:7075 (talk) 23:51, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

The ABC article states that it "has independently confirmed 34 violent deaths of transgender and gender non-conforming people" (independently confirming that they were trans or GNC and killed violently from a list maintained by HRC). ABC has not determined that they were killed because of transphobic bias. At least one person mentioned in the ABC article (Summer Taylor) died violently, but was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time, and wasn't specifically targeted. IP, do you think Summer Taylor should be included in this list? Plantdrew (talk) 01:01, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
I would neither add nor subtract Summer Taylor from the list because a vehicle-ramming attack into a crowd isn't very discriminating. The driver may have been motivated by xenophobia, racism, transphobia, or even mental illness.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:656A:420D:A1FA:7075 (talk) 01:18, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
I have sought to use reason and strike a compromise. However, the stance that we must maintain zero transphobic death on the list is an example of all-or-nothing mentality.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:656A:420D:A1FA:7075 (talk) 01:26, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
There are aspects of the inclusion criteria for which consensus has not been determined, but consensus for limiting the scope to subjects killed for being transgender rather than including all transgender people who have been killed was reached in the move discussion. Of the three entries I removed which led to this discussion, one person was not killed at all but rather died of undetermined natural causes, the second was killed by an unknown perpetrator for unknown reasons, and the third was killed along with 13 other people in a mass shooting motivated by a turf war between the CJNG and Los Zetas drug cartels. Paisarepa 17:10, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
  • @Paisarepa: I don't agree that the move discussion properly determined that change in inclusion criteria. At least according to Funcrunch (who supported the move at the time), the move was not intended to have the effect of changing the inclusion criteria. There are other people I could cite as well, but I don't want to ping more than one person unless it's for an RFC (where all previous contributors can be pinged).
    I am not trying to get into specific cases here, but I suppose we can talk about Bee Love Slater. That is exactly the kind of death that most reliable sources would catalogue alongside other transgender killings, so it's wrong that we have criteria that doesn't match up with theirs. She was horrifically killed, and every reliable source that covered the death felt a need to mention she she was trans. As far as 2019 lists of transgender people that were killed, here name appears in coverage from CNN, HRC, Advocate, Out, and HuffPost. As mentioned earlier, if reliable sources are compiling a list with a different set of inclusion criteria than we are, then we need to be following their criteria. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 17:49, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
    @MJL: I can't speak for Funcrunch, but there is a big difference between an impossibly high standard of proof vs the need for at least one reliable source to state that there is evidence that the person's gender identity was a motivating factor behind their killing, which none do in the case of Bee Love Slater. Some of the sources quote a friend's speculation regarding a motive, but quoted speculation is of course not considered reliable. There is an inclusion criteria gray area with regards to sourcing and with regards to how much evidence of motive is required but none of the three entries I removed fall in that gray area. It sounds like there are two separate issues here, one of which is our burden of proof regarding motive, and the second the question of if we should be limiting the scope of the list based on motive at all. Both are valid discussions, but there is existing consensus regarding the scope and the lack of consensus regarding burden of proof doesn't invalidate that consensus. An RfC regarding burden of proof would be helpful, and I have no issue with an RfC re-examining the scope as long as the two are not conflated. Paisarepa 18:44, 16 March 2021 (UTC)*:::@Paisarepa: I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Reliable sources have lists of transgender people who were killed; we have a list of transgender people killed for being transgender. That shouldn't be the case. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 22:50, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
@MJL: I think I understand what you're saying but respectfully disagree on the grounds of there being existing consensus, which in my opinion outweighs any relative prevalence of different list criteria in RSs, as well as a concern that the list would become indiscriminate without the motive-based criteria. With that said, I see where you're coming from and acknowledge the merits of your argument. I also agree with your comment below regarding focusing on the criteria first and then finding a fitting title; it seems like that order of operations would avoid any unintended or unexpected consequences this time around. Paisarepa 23:18, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
@Paisarepa: There isn't any existing consensus like I said, though. The RM was about a page title and not the list criteria, and the only time the list criteria was brought up in proper discussion no consensus was generated. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 01:41, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
@MJL: You may want to go and read the page move request, as the re-scoping was very clearly and explicitly stated from the beginning. Additionally, the new article title is very specifically and unambiguously self-descriptive; I don't understand the argument that someone could support the move to 'List of people killed for being transgender' without realizing that the scope would be limited to people who were killed for being transgender. Paisarepa 01:50, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
@Paisarepa: Well, that was my point with Funcrunch. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 02:07, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
@MJL: I can't really respond to that since I can't speak for Funcrunch or any other editor. I think you should take this the RfC route if you want to change consensus; you and I can argue all day long about whether unintended consequences or regrets after-the-fact may or may not undo a consensus discussion, but an RfC will make all of this discussion moot and hopefully bring in a lot more editors to the discussion and create a much more clear and lasting consensus. Paisarepa 02:28, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
The title of the page determines its scope and for the most part determines the criteria, at least implicitly. The current title sets the scope of the page rather narrowly, and the RM discussion from last March shows that this was in fact the intent of the title page move. If the title is changed back to "The list of unlawfully killed transgender people" (or some similar title), that would set the scope much broader. There would simply be no need to argue as to what kind of sources are acceptable in asserting that the murder was a bias crime and how explicitly they need to assert it. As I see from reading the two RM discussions, the main arguments in favor of the move to the current title were that it would conform to the Wikipedia practices for other types of bias crimes, and that the total number of murders of transgender individuals per year is too high and would overwhelm the page and would make maintaining the list non-feasible. The main argument against the move to the current title seems to have been that WP:RS cover the murders of transgender people differently and that the notable topic here is all murders of transgender people rather than just hate crime murders of transgender people. I believe this discussion is worth revisiting. Nsk92 (talk) 23:14, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
  • @Nsk92: My only issue with your method of doing things is that RFCs cannot be used to determine article titles. Regardless, I think once we agree what kind of list we want to see existing, the article title will probably come naturally or can be settled with a follow-up RM if needed. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 01:41, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Could we broaden the scope to "incidents of violence against transgender people", but limit it to only independently notable events? This would mean including crimes like Beating of Chrissy Lee Polis (the victim didn't die) and Murder of Tanya Moore and Tina Rodriguez (no definite evidence they were killed for being transgender), but not including cases where the only sources are local crime reporting from around the time of the person's death. (I think a reason we're running into problems with the current criteria is a lack of sources covering the outcomes of investigations/convictions, beyond "Local person found dead today".) gnu57 23:48, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
The problem here would be in dealing with the immediate aftermath of relevant events. Being independently notable is a pretty high bar that usually requires sustained coverage over an extended period of time. In short term it is usually unclear if such sustained coverage would be available. We can't very well wait 3-4 months after some particular murder to decide whether to include it in this page. It would be better to raise the notability inclusion bar in some other way, such as by requiring coverage by multiple non-local independent sources. In this respect I think it's better to keep the scope of the article restricted to murders. For other types of violence against transgender people, few of them become independently notable but probably there are too many that happen and receive sufficient coverage that it would really overwhelm the list. Nsk92 (talk) 00:28, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
@Genericusername57: Our criteria should match what is used in WP:RS. I don't see why this has to be so complicated; it should be a list of transgender people who were killed. The criteria we should use for entries is whether or not a victim is included said similar lists or was evidently killed for being transgender. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 01:41, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
MJL, sorry, I could not unparse your last sentence and figure out how it relates to the first one. Are you saying that the article should be a list of of unlawfully killed transgender people? Or that it should be a list of people who were killed for being transgender? Nsk92 (talk) 01:57, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
It should be a list of transgender people who were killed (get rid of the "unlawful"). An entry can be included if it meets one of two standards: (1) The entry is included/mentioned in a similar yearly list published by a WP:RS (like HRC yearly reports and such), or (2) the entry is for a person who was reportedly killed for being transgender and such killing was covered in-depth by a WP:RS of national prominence/circulation. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 02:07, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
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