Talk:List of redheads

Dyed

Here's a list of people known to have dyed their hair red. I'm putting it here because they will keep showing up. We might start a sub-section for them. Warden (talk) 11:01, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

• Christina Hendricks
• Gillian Anderson — Preceding unsigned comment added by Carennah (talk • contribs) 02:28, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
• Julia Gillard
• J.K. Rowling
• Lucille Ball
• Rita Hayworth
• Robin Davies
• Tori Amos

On a similar note, ought we change the name of the article to "List of Natural Redheads" and offer a link to a new article, "List of Dyed Redheads"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by RedDarling (talk • contribs) 01:32, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

This source [1] says that some people recently removed from this list have dyed their hair red, such as Alyson Hannigan, Debra Messing, and Kate Walsh. Nine hundred ninety-nine (talk) 03:52, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

I removed Alyson Hannigan from the list because these sources [2] [3] say she dyed her hair, and the source given for her is the IMDB, which is not a reliable source.Nine hundred ninety-nine (talk) 00:56, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

These sources [4] [5] say Molly Ringwald dyed her hair. Does anyone know if it is true? Nine hundred ninety-nine (talk) 00:59, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Mary Magdalene

Why is Mary Magdalene in the list when the lead states that fictional characters are not included? 120.62.161.122 (talk) 10:50, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Not that this was ever intended to be a forum to dispute religion, I will say as just a matter of accuracy. Mary Magdalene is a biblical figure. Like most persons referenced in biblical texts, it can not be scientifically proven they were fictional or actually lived as a real person. Parts of the bible were compiled as historical texts before DNA testing was a possibility. It is widely accepted, due to numerous accounts of these historical texts, that she did exist. More of the controversy surrounds who exactly she was. She is also often confused with Mary (the mother of Jesus who's has also been questioned/doubted and surrounded by controversy.) as well as Mary of Bethany. Here is an article on Wikipedia with more on the topic of Mary Magdalene: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Magdalene

Elizabeth of York

Every portrait I have seen of ever seen of Elizabeth of York depicts a woman with red hair, and all descriptions of her say she had reddish gold hair, including Polydore Vergil and Holinshead (Foreign ambassadors also described her at the court of Henry VII and though for obvious reasons they were more interested in her husband, they would have noted her as their hostess as she certainly would have been required to make an appearance at the party.) Further, genetically she seems to be the missing piece of the puzzle, looking at her immediate descendants. Henry VII had dark brown hair, almost black. Only one of his children inherited his dark cap of hair, his daughter Margaret. Two copies are needed for the gene to activate, so we can presume that Tudor had a hidden copy somewhere. (If Elizabeth had dark hair the children would have been more likely to take after their father, and Henry VIII was noted for having blazing red hair.) OTT, all of Henry VIII's surviving children were redheads, with only one of them having a redheaded mother. The odds of that outcome decrease without a redheaded grandmother, especially for Elizabeth I.

SO, THE QUESTION OF QUESTIONS: WHY IS HER NAME ALWAYS ERASED FROM THE LIST?!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.174.48.223 (talk) 18:39, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

• IIRC, entries for Elizabeth have been removed as lacking a good source. I have had a look myself but didn't find a satisfactory one. And, as we have other Tudors, we don't especially need this one too. Warden (talk) 10:04, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

• Elizabeth of York WAS a redhead. Both her sons inherited the MC1R mutation from her and three of her grandchildren also got it: James V of Scotland (recorded as having red hair as a baby that darkened to auburn as he aged) Mary I of England, and Elizabeth I of England; we may also count Mary Queen of Scots with auburn hair and Lord Darnley, whose portraits show he was more carroty than Bugs Bunny on crack (both descended from Margaret of Scotland.)

The gene for red is a recessive mutation. Two copies from both parents are needed for it to activate. Henry Tudor was noted as having dark hair like his father before him, Edmund and it is not known what others in his family looked like save that his mother had brown hair and so did his grandmother Catherine of Valois. Obviously he had one copy of the MC1R gene for red hair as his two sons got it and several of his grandchildren also got it; further, we know that his mum was a descendant of Katherine Swynford (notedly ruddy capped, described as having bronze hair http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~havens5/p22287.htm) and John of Gaunt, a known carrier (Isabella of Spain and her whole house got it from him, and so did the reigning monarchs of Portugal.) Margaret Beaufort did not have red hair (brown), but she did have kin that did, all descendants of Kat Swynford. Thus, Henry Tudor was a carrier of the first copy of Henry VIII's flaming follicles through his maternal grandfather, also a carrier.

The only way that Henry Tudor's children could have red hair would be if their mother carried the second copy of the gene MC1R on chromosome 16; otherwise the color would not manifest. The portrait in the National Gallery shows Elizabeth of York had two copies as the hair is red (mind you historians are typically the ones who study such things, and they seem to agree upon this point as they have her effigy at Westminster sporting a red wig on display.) It is one of two contemporary one we have of her, painted c. 1500. The other portrait shows that she and her sisters had red hair; it is a stained glass portrait done of her as a teenager. If Elizabeth were a blonde but carried the gene for red (it is possible, her mother was blonde and so was her grandma Cecily) there would have been redheads following her in direct descent, but there also would have been blondes since blonde is dominant over red-this did not happen. Most of the house of Tudor had Titian locks or at least auburn, and many in the Scottish royal lines had this trait up to about 1620.

For more information, read Winter King, a bio of Henry VII and google up the genetics-I am right. The genetics for her descendants don't work if she wasn't. The portrait of Elizabeth as a teenager is in Canterbury Cathedral; she is the one in front.

71.174.190.179 (talk) 12:02, 30 June 2013 (UTC) (copied here by Warden from his user page)

Order of list

Shouldn't this list be alphabetized by last name rather than first? Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 15:09, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

The list is a global one and so we should not assume that name construction and conventions follow the current UK/US pattern. In many circumstances, it is the personal name which is the most important - Cleopatra, Elizabeth, Frederick. Sorting such people by their family name or dynasty would be unnatural. The same seems to apply to other famous people such as Winston Churchill who was known familiarly as Winnie. It therefore seems simplest to sort by the personal name rather than the family name. Warden (talk) 10:00, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Okay. It's just that most lists I've seen of people's names usually alphabetizes them by surname and takes into account that some cultures place the surname first. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 15:55, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Lucille Ball?

The introduction says people with red hair that's not natural (i.e dyed), aren't included, and gives the example of Lucille Ball, yet she's in the list. What's up with that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.111.121.175 (talk) 15:42, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

King David?

According to some translations of the Book of Samuel, King David had red hair. If Judas, whos red-haired status is mentioned nowhere in Christian Scriptures, is on the list, so should king David. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.230.132.113 (talk) 00:18, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Shouldn't Stav Shaffir be included? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.64.112.20 (talk) 12:15, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Why no "List of blonds" or "List of brunettes"?

Not trying to put this page down, but why aren't there any pages of Blonds and Brunettes and only the Redheads exist? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.10.210.179 (talk) 10:13, 11 October 2015 (UTC) Guess no one saw this.

We have a list of redheads because red hair is less common than other hair colors. It's the same reason we have List of people who are left-handed but not one for people who are right handed. Nine hundred ninety-nine (talk) 18:10, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 20 January 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved Mike Cline (talk) 14:59, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

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List of redheads → List of natural redheads – The current title does not WP:PRECISEly define the topical scope of the list. This list contains notable people who had natural red hair, but the current title implies that this is a list of all people with red hair, regardless of whether the red colour is natural or dyed. The page title should be updated to reflect its scope precisely. sst✈ 16:14, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. The source which cover this topic have titles like The Redhead Encyclopedia; The Redhead Book; Redheads and don't qualify the term. The issue of whether to include people with dyed hair is debatable, rather being fundamental. We generally don't want them because many women change their hair colour on a temporary cosmetic basis, especially actresses. For example, Gillian Anderson is naturally blonde but wears a wig to play the red-haired character Dana Scully. We could include both the actress and character if there was consensus to do so but it seems simpler to keep the list focussed on real-world, natural red-heads. Andrew D. (talk) 17:06, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

@Andrew Davidson: Are you opposing based on the premise that this article should include non-natural redheads? Since its inception this article lead has stated that this page is a list of natural redheads. Could/should there be a list of all redheads, perhaps. But changing the content of this article seems to be outside the scope of this requested move. Or am I misunderstanding the basis for your oppose? Tiggerjay (talk) 20:04, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

• Gingerly oppose per Andrew Davidson. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 08:22, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Nice pun Tiggerjay (talk) 04:20, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support because this article has always had the lead intro of 'natural' included. If there was consensus to make the list more inclusive of 'all' redheads, then I might agree. But it seems like making the name consistent with the purpose of this list is the right and simplest thing to do. Also, to a degree that Andrew Davidson brought up, people often change their hair color, or only for specific roles/purposes. How then should we maintain this list? It would result in many updates which are effectively meaningless, and what threshold for inclusion should be used? Rather, keeping with the use of natural haircolor is the easiest, most stable and reliable threshold to be used. It appears to be in line with the initial intent of this article from creation. And therefore moving this article title to better reflect this distinction is obvious. Tiggerjay (talk) 20:54, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

• Tiggerjay is not quite correct. The current lead was introduced with this edit whereas the previous version included both dyed cases (Lucille Ball) and fictional cases (Wilma Flintstone). I was the editor who did this (using the alternate name which I was using at the time). My thinking was to clean up the page and give it a firm foundation for future expansion. This thinking was pragmatic rather than theoretical. If the list had continued to contain lots of cartoon characters and actresses with dyed hair, it might have been deleted. Note that I also started the section Dyed above to keep track of the notable dyed cases and suggested that we might start a section for such outstanding cases. That is still a valid option. Andrew D. (talk) 17:42, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. "Natural" is implied, better to be concise. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:01, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Semi-protected edit request on 27 April 2017

Add "Emily Dickinson — Poet" to list Add "Fyodor Dostoyevsky —Novelist" to list Add "George Meredith — Poet" to list Jtslc (talk) 09:00, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

 Not done this page is now unprotected. Please feel free to do it yourself. Thanks! ProgrammingGeek ^talktome 00:28, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Reorganisation

Not sure I see the point of this article, but since two afd discussions have concluded with keep then I guess there's enough people who think it meets WP:GNG. However, that's beside the point and not my main reason for posting here. A huge problem the page has is the way the people are listed–by first name rather than surname. I don't know if I can be bothered to reorganise it (unless I've really got nothing else to do one summer's afternoon), but it definitely needs some attention. Any thoughts? This is Paul (talk) 18:11, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

• The current method of sorting best as women especially may have different family names over time. Elizabeth I is best filed under E rather than T for Tudor. Andrew D. (talk) 23:39, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Adrienne Corri

Why is she not on the list? (As a natural redhead?) Jaycey (talk) 21:15, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

I added her to the list. She probably wasn't on the list simply because nobody got around to it. Anyone can edit Wikipedia, so as long as you have a source, you can add entries yourself. Nine hundred ninety-nine (talk) 22:24, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

Jill St. John

Is she not a natural redhead? Jaycey (talk) 21:28, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Joan of Arc was not a redhead

She was never described as having red hair. Everyone who knew her said she was black-haired. She is sometimes depicted as a redhead in iconography and popular culture, that's true, but it doesn't mean that she should be on a list of redheads. She is almost always depicted as a blonde. Does this mean that she should be on a list of blondes as well? Arugnis (talk) 19:33, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Genghis Khan with red hair is unconfirmed

Claims of him having red hair isn't confirmed and considered controversial so it's better to remove him from this list of red hair. Including him in this list of red hair would mislead people.

The only individuals to have recorded Genghis Khan's physical appearance during his lifetime were the Persian chronicler Minhaj al-Siraj Juzjani and Chinese diplomat Zhao Hong.[115]

• To read more https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan#Physical_appearance

Neither of the 13th century historians had made any mention of him having red hair. Any historical reference to Genghis Khan having red hair only existed in the 14th century text. The source for his red hair cited in this wiki page is basically the same thing from the original Genghis Khan main wikipedia page.

• Lkhagvasuren, Gavaachimed; Shin, Heejin; Lee, Si Eun; Tumen, Dashtseveg; Kim, Jae-Hyun; Kim, Kyung-Yong; Kim, Kijeong; Park, Ae Ja; Lee, Ho Woon; Kim, Mi Jin; Choi, Jaesung (September 14, 2016). "Molecular Genealogy of a Mongol Queen's Family and Her Possible Kinship with Genghis Khan". PLoS ONE. 11 (9): e0161622. Bibcode:2016PLoSO..1161622L. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0161622. ISSN 1932-6203. PMC 5023095. PMID 27627454.
• The link for this source https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5023095/

The text itself says " Although the factual nature of the statement is controversial, Persian historian Rashid-al-Din reported in his “Jami’s al-tawarikh” written at the start of the 14th century that most Borjigin ancestors of Genghis Khan were tall, long-bearded, red-haired, and bluish green-eyed...."

So from the source it clearly says nature of the statement is controversial Wises choice would be to remove it from the K list. Queenplz (talk) 03:56, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Removed entries

Here is the edit where unsourced entries were removed [6]. I am posting this because it clearly shows which people were removed, so people can look through the removed names and see if they either know a source or can find a source for some of the entries. Nine hundred ninety-nine (talk) 21:32, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri

Someone added Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri to the list then it was reverted by a bot. Does anyone know if he had red hair and if there is a source? Nine hundred ninety-nine (talk) 22:23, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

I found this source [7] that says, "Douri was a pale, wizened figure with thinning ginger hair." It seems that the bot's reversion was a false positive, so I'll add him back to the article. Nine hundred ninety-nine (talk) 22:27, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

John F. Kennedy?

In all of the color pictures I have found of JFK, his hair is distinctly brown, particularly those in bright sunlight, where red hair is most noticeable. NavyVet6989 (talk) 05:51, 18 December 2023 (UTC)