Talk:List of state leaders in 1124

Earlier, I stopped adding these lists at 1124 because I kept finding more, and I thought I should wait until I found everything. Well I think I found everything that is included in lists on Wikipedia, but Hostkingdom.net, which is usually accurate and useful (and is run by a sometimes-contributor to Wikipedia) has many many more lists. So, here is a list I compiled of people we do not already have in the 1124 list. However, it also includes some people I know are not heads of state as such, in areas I am personally familiar with - various vassals of Jerusalem, and English peers. The vassals of the king of Jerusalem are not "peers" as such, but they're not really heads of a separate state either...and I guess the English ones can be removed entirely. I'm not sure what to do with the others - France and the Holy Roman Empire are pretty tricky. I included titles if hostkingdom.net indicated them (or if I could make a reasonable guess). If anyone has any comments, please discuss them here. (And I know this list is kind of arbitrary because things change so often in the 12th century, but I wanted to stop somewhere where I was fairly familiar with the situation.) Adam Bishop

Asia

• Arakan – Parin dynasty – Thakiwengngay 1115-1133
• Awadh – Govindachandra, king of Benares c. 1114-c. 1155
• Azerbaijan – Atabeg Abu Muzaffar Manuchihr II c. 1095-1155
• Bali – Jayashakti 1133-1150
• Bengal – Kumarapala, Pala dynasty, c. 1120-c. 1125
• Caesarea – Lord Walter 1123-1154
  • Part of Jerusalem, not a state
• Gujarat – Kumarapala, c. 1125-c. 1171
• Hebron – Lord Baldwin of St. Abraham (1120-1136)
  • Part of Jerusalem, not a state
• Jaffa – Count Hugh II 1122-1134
  • Part of Jerusalem, not a state
• Java – Kediri dynasty Bamesvara I c. 1117-1130
• Kashmir – Sussala 1120-1127
• Keraits – Borjegin king – Mark Buyuruq-Khan c. 1120-1150s
• Kerala – Kotha Varma, raja of Venad 1102-1125
• Kipchak Turks – Otrok Khan 1111-c. 1146
• Lori – Prince of Matznaberg David II 1118-1145
• Malwa – Naravarman 1097-1134
• Manipur – Loitongba 1121-1149
• Mardin – Ortuqid ruler al-Sa’id Husan ad-Din Timur Tash 1122-1154
• Nepal – Thakuri dynasty, Shivadeva 1118-1128
• Orissa – Anantavarman Chodaganga 1118-1148
• Oultrejordain – Lord Roman of Puy 1118-1126
  • Part of Jerusalem, not a state
• Sana – Yahya ibn Mohammed Abu Talib – 1117-1137
• Siuna – Gregory VI 1094-1166
• Sivas – Danishmendid, Gumushtigin 1084-1134
• Zabid – al-Mansur ibn Fatiq 1109-1124

Africa

• Kanem-Bornu – Dunama I 1098-1150
• Kangaba – Baraonendana c. 1090-c. 1150
• Kano – Gajemasu 1095-1134
• Kilwa – Emperor of Zeng, Daoud II ibn Sulayman 1117-1158
• Mali – Majan Wagadu c. 1120-c. 1130
• Mukurra - Basil, c. 1089-c. 1130

Europe

• Albemarle - Stephen, 2nd Earl of Albemarle 1096-c. 1125
  • I think he's just a peer. Mackensen (talk) 04:00, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Albi – Viscount Bernard Aton Trencavel 1082-1130
  • Presumably part of the County of Toulouse
• Alençon – Count of Alencon William III 1112-1171
  • A first order vassal of the Kings of France
• Amboise – Count Hugh II 1080-1128
• Arborea – Constantine I 1090-1131
• Aremberg – Franko 1117-1129
• Armagnac – Count Gerard III 1110-1160
  • I believe a vassal of the Dukes of Aquitaine. john k 02:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Aversa – Count Giordano II 1120-1127
  • Not sure the story here - it's in south Italy, so probably independent.
    • A separate county, according to our Aversa article.
• Bar-sur-Seine – Count Milo II 1085-1125
• Bari – Count William II, Duke of Apulia 1113-1127
  • Apulia would be the state here, not Bari. john k 02:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Bearn – Count Gaston IV 1090-1131
  • Maybe connected Toulouse, since Gaston followed Raymond IV on crusade; otherwise, it was formerly connected to Aquitaine, and then later to Foix and Navarre, but at this point it is apparently independent
• Bentheim – Otto 1115-1149
• Berg – Count Adolph III 1093-1132
• Besançon – Count Anseric of Montreal 1117-1134
  • Probably part of the County (or Duchy?) of Burgundy
• Bregenz – Rudolph I 1097-1143
• Buckingham - Walter Giffard, 2nd Earl of Buckingham 1102-1164
  • I think he's just a peer. Mackensen (talk) 04:00, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Cagliari – Torgodorio II 1108-1129
• Capua – Duke Jordan II 1120-1127
  • Like Aversa, probably independent. john k 02:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Chatillon – Lord Gaucher II 1121-1148
• Chester – Earl Ranulf I 1120-c. 1129
  • A palatine county in England. Durham's the only other one, I believe. john k 02:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Chiny – Count Otto II 1106-1125
• Clermont-en-Beauvais – Count Renaud II 1101-1157
• Cleves – Arnold I 1119-1147
• Condé – Lord Goswin II 1120-1127
• Cuyk – Godfrey I, Burgrave of Utrecht 1121-1168
• Dagestan – Saif ad-Din Mohammed ibn Khalifa c. 1120-1140
• Dalhem – Count Conrad c. 1108-1128
• Danzig – Duke of Pomerelia Wartislaw I of Pomerania 1107-1137
  • Pomerania is still part of Poland at this point, so Danzig probably is too
• Desmond – King Cormac III 1123-1127
• Dublin – Jarl Thorfinn 1119-1124
• Durham – Prince-Bishop Ranulf Flambard 1099-1129
  • Same deal as Chester. john k 02:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• East Franconia – Godfrey 1104-1127
• Evreux – Count Amaury I 1118-1136
  • Part of the Duchy of Normandy
• Franconia – Duke Conrad I, later HRE, 1105-1138
  • Definitely a first order stem duchy in Germany. john k 02:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Foix – Count Roger II 1071-1124, Roger III 1124-1148
  • A vassal of the Dukes of Aquitaine, I think.
    • According to County of Foix, it was independent.
      • No it doesn't - it says it was a feudatory of the County of Toulouse that at some point established independence. john k 07:03, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
        • Ah...should have read a little further. But they were independent at some point, at least... Adam Bishop 07:43, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Friuli – Count, Patriarch of Aquileia Gerard Primiero 1122-1129
• Frisia – Count Henry II 1107-c. 1138
• Gaeta – Duke Richard II 1121-1125
  • Another independent South Italian state, I should think. john k 02:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
    • According to Gaeta it was part of the County of Aversa and then the Kingdom of Sicily.
• Gloucester – Earl Robert Fitzhenry 1121-1147
  • A marcher earldom. Not sure how that fits in. john k 02:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Hebrides – Lord of the Isles Olaf Bitling 1113-1153
• Heinsberg – Goswin I c. 1085-1128
• Henneberg – Godwalt 1078-1143
• Hereford –Miles de Gloucester, 1st Earl of Hereford 1100-1143
  • I think he's just a peer. Mackensen (talk) 04:00, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
    • Another marcher lord. john k 02:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Hesse – Henry Raspe I (Landgrave of Thuringia?) 1122-1130
  • Hesse was not a state at this point - it was the western half of the Landgraviate of Thuringia. john k 02:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Hohnstein – Ilger I 1123-1145
• Holstein – Adolph I 1110-1131
• Huntingdon - Henry of Scotland, 3rd Earl of Huntingdon 1114-1152
  • An English peerage. john k 02:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Iceland – Lawspeaker Guthmundur Thorgeirsson 1123-1124
• Istria – margrave of Istria Engelbert II 1103-1134
• Julich – Gerard IV 1114-1127
• Kazan – Shamgun ibn Adam 1118-1135
• Kent - William de Ipres, 1st Earl of Kent c. 1115–1162
  • I think he's just a peer. Mackensen (talk) 04:00, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Leiningen – Emich II 1117-c. 1141
• Leinster – Enna II 1117-1126
• Leister - Robert de Beaumont, 2nd Earl of Leicester 1118-1168
  • Just a peer, I should think. Also, spelled Leicester. john k 02:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Leuchtenberg – Frederick I c. 1123-1146
• Liege – Prince Bishop Alberon I de Louvain 1121-1128
• Limburg – Duke Walram II 1119-1139
• Limoges – Viscount Ademar III 1090-1139
• Lodi – Count-Bishop Arderico I Vignati 1103-1128
• Loon – Count Arnold I c. 1082-c. 1126
• Lowenstein – Albert IV 1099-1147
• Luxembourg – Count William 1096-1129
• Macon – Count Reinald III 1102-1127 (then Count of Burgundy)
  • The County of Burgundy counts, certainly. Not sure about Macon (and even if it's in the Kingdom of France or in the Empire). john k 02:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Mallorca – Abu-l-Rabi Sulayman El Burabe 1114-1126
  • The Spanish Muslim states should be dealt with on their own - I think this is the period of the break-up of the Almoravids, so probably an independent state. john k 02:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Meath – Murchad IV 1106-1153
  • There were five Irish Kingdoms, I think. Not sure how to deal with them. john k 02:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Mecklenberg – Prince of Greater Wendia Henry I 1093-1127
• Meissen – Margrave Wisbert 1123-1124, Henry III 1124-1135, Herman II 1124-1129
  • A high order vassal of the Holy Roman Empire. john k 02:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Milan – Count-Bishop? Olrico 1120-1126
• Muron – Vselvod 1123-1127
• Montenegro – King of Zeta, Grubesa 1116-1125
  • It wouldn't be Montenegro at this point, but Zeta. Not sure of the exact status of this region. john k 02:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Nassau – Rupert I 1123-1152
• Neuneahr – Dietrich I 1107-1126
• Nevers – Count William II 1097-1147
• Northampton - Simon Saint-Lis, 2nd Earl of Northampton 1109-1153
  • Another peer. john k 02:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Northumberland – Earl Henry of Scotland, 1st Earl of Northumberland 1114-1152
  • A marcher earldom, but really a peerage at this point, I think. john k 02:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Nuremburg – Conrad I 1123-c. 1126, Godfrey II 1123-1160
• Oldenburg – Elimar II 1108-1143
• Orange – Countess Tiburge I 1121-1150
• Oriel – King Flaitherty 1119-1127
• Ossory – King Murchad 1123-1126
• Padua – Count-Bishop Sinibald 1106-1124
• Papal States? – Callistus II 1119-1124, Honorius II 1124-1130
  • No Papal States, exactly, but the Pope deserves mention nevertheless. john k 02:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Peremyshl –Volodar 1092-1124, Rostislav II 1124-1129
  • Przemysl, Poland. "Volodar" is a misnomer. It simply means "ruler", "lord". Mikkalai 08:35, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Piacenza – Count-Bishop Arduino 1122-1130
• Querfurt – Burchard III, Burggrave of Magdeburg, 1120-1150
• Ravensburg – Herman II 1096-1141
• Reuss – Egbert II 1115-1132
• Rheingrafen – Louis II 1109-1140
• Rome? – Prefects Pierleone and Leone Frangipane 1108-1143
  • Definitely not. john k 02:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• S-Hertogenrade – Lord Adolf 1109-1136
• Saarbrucken – Frederick 1120-1135
• Salm – Herman II 1088-1135
• Savona – Margrave of Western Liguria Boniface 1084-1125
  • Savona would not be the state - again, it would be Western Liguria. john k 02:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Schwalenburg – Count Withukind III 1116-1137
• Schwarzburg – Count Sizzo III 1109-1160
• Soissons – Count Renaud II 1118-1146
• Sponheim – Frederick 1112-1148, Meinhard 1118-1155
• Stein – Wolfram II 1081-1126
• St. Pol – Count Hugh II 1083-1131
• Sulz – Alwig II 1095-1139
• Surrey – Earl William II 1103-1138
• Thomond – King Conchobar I 1118-1142
• Thouars – Viscount Aimery V 1123-1127
• Thuringia – Louis III 1123-1140 (Landgrave of Hesse 1130-1140)
  • A major vassal state in the Empire. john k 02:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Torres – Constantine I 1112-1127
• Tubingen – Count Palatine Hugo V 1125-1152
• Tuscany – Margrave Conrad von Scheiren 1120-1127
  • A major vassal state in the Regnum Italicum. john k 02:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Tyrconnell – Rory II 1093-1135
• Tyrol – Count of Tyrol Albert III 1101-1165
• Ulster – King Niall IV 1122-1127
  • Another Irish kingdom. Not sure if there was a High King at this point. john k 02:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Urgel – Count Armengol VI 1102-1153
• Valkenburg – Lord Goswin I c. 1106-c. 1128
• Vaudemont – Count Hugh I 1108-1155
• Veldenz – Count Gerlach I 1112-1146
• Vendome – Count Geoffrey III 1102-1137
• Vermandois – Count Raoul I 1102-1152
  • The previous count was the brother of the king of France, so it might be a sort of peerage title.
• Vicenza – Count-Bishop Enrico II 1117-1131
• Vienne – Count Guiges III 1075-1133
• Warwick – Earl Roger 1119-1153
  • Another English peerage type thing. john k 02:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Weimar – Albert the Bear 1123-1170
• Weimar-Orlamunde – Siegfried II 1113-1123
• Werd – Sigbert I 1124-1135
• Wernigerode – Albert I 1120-1146
• Wied – Matfried III 1093-1129
• Wildfragen – Emicho II 1108-1139
• Zaragoza – 'Abd al-Malik Imad al-Dawla 1110-1130
• Ziegenhain – Gozmar II 1117-1141

Early East Slavs

I sublisted them. They are not "states". The word is "principality". Territories of modern Russia (European part), Belarus, Ukraine. Mikkalai 08:35, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

• Chernigov – Yaroslav I 1123-1127
• Drutsk – Boris I 1101-1128
• Halych Galitzia – Duke of Galitzia Vasilko I 1087-1124, John I 1124-1141
  • One of the Rus principalities, I believe. john k 02:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Grodno – Vladiko 1116-1141
  • "Vladiko" is a misnomer; it means simply "ruler", "owner", "master", also a form of addressing to bishop. Mikkalai 08:35, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Izyaslavl – Bryachislav I 1116-1127
• Kyiv - Volodymyr Monomakh 1113-1125
• Novgorod – Vselvod 1117-1132
• Novgorod-Severskiy, Novgorod-Siverskyy – Vsevolod II of Kiev 1115-1127
  • These two are more Russian states. Not sure the exact situation here. john k 02:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Pereyaslavl – Yaropolk I 1114-1132
  • More Russian states. john k 02:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Polotsk – David 1116-1127
  • Another Russian state, I think. john k 02:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Ryazan – Svyatoslav the Young 1097-1129
  • Russian state. john k 02:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Rostov – George Longarm Yuri Dolgoruky – 1114-1134
  • More with the Russia. john k 02:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Smolensk – Vyacheslav II – 1113-1127
  • Russian principality. These all owed allegiance to a great prince, but not in the normal feudal way. Weird situation. john k 02:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Turaw Turov – Vyacheslav I 1119-1133
• Volhynia – Andrew the Good 1119-1134

See also List of Russian rulers and Rulers of Kievan Rus'. Mikkalai 08:35, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

...

Isn't the real problem here that in the medieval period, you don't really have "states" in the modern (or even the early modern) sense? I would suggest that the main page just have the highest level states - in the case of Christendom in 1124, that would presumably be England, Scotland, whatever independent Welsh states there were (Gwynedd? Possibly some others), any independent Irish states, Castile-León, Navarre, Aragon, the Holy Roman Empire, the Pope, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, the Counties of Apulia and Sicily (any other south Italian states still around at this point), france, Poland, Bohemia, Hungary, the Byzantine Empire, Kingdom of Jerusalem, other three Crusader states. And that first order vassals of the Holy Roman Empire or the Kingdom of France could go into a separate page. I've tried to add any knowledge I can to your list. john k 02:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, this is the same sort of problem with other lists trying to extend throughout all the ear articles - "1124 in sports" or "list of international organization leaders in 1124", if we extended those all the way as well. I guess we need a better definition of "state" and "independent" for this period. Adam Bishop 19:59, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think most historians would agree that the term "state" does not apply to feudal agglomerations at all. It probably would also not apply to any of the governmental structures in place at this time period...Perhaps the whole "state leaders" designation needs to be reconsidered, at least for this period. IMO, "polity" would be a better term than "state." john k 00:41, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The French wikipedia has a helpful page listing when certain parts of France were annexed directly to the crown: fr:Domaine_royal_français. fr:Liste_des_duchés_et_comtés_français also has a list of counties and duchies in France. Adam Bishop 00:28, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The problem is that in 1124 there is a great deal of local sovereignty, including many more bishops aside from the "Prince-Bishops", and even abbots; the communes of central and northern Italy (Montepulciano? Arezzo? San Gimignano?; the utterly uncontrolled local seigneurs of central France, etc. At the same time, there are few that do not owe fealty to a higher power. So this will have to be a selective list, of the polities that are essentially self-governing. There should also be a link to a broader discussion of the historical career (evolution and devolution) of sovereignty at Sovereignty. --Wetman