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Talk:List of superdelegates at the 2016 Democratic National Convention/Archive 1

< Talk:List of superdelegates at the 2016 Democratic National Convention
Latest comment: 8 years ago by JFG in topic Superdelegates in Multiple Categories
Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3

O'Malley

Latest comment: 8 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Should the 3 O'Malley supers be removed now that he dropped out? Or not until they affirmatively say they are for someone else? Abulsme (talk) 03:54, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Boyd Brown switched to Clinton. The other two I guess stay as O'Malley for now - they could still vote for him at the convention in theory.PotvinSux (talk) 11:36, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Totals

Latest comment: 8 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

I added two Clinton DNC folks from http://www.therepublic.com/view/story/531e1e5e2b77485ca967f245ab2cf2a4/MS--Democratic-Delegate-Mississippi who were not already listed, but didn't know how to update the counts or make the reference in the nicest format. (I just copied the format for the Sanders delegate already listed from the same source.) Trusting PotvinSux or someone can clean it up. And thanks for this page by the way, it is one of my main reference sources for my own delegate tracking site. Abulsme (talk) 12:55, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

ThxPotvinSux (talk) 02:55, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

pls add Reni Erdos to Sanders

Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

http://politickernj.com/2016/02/democratic-national-committee-member-erdos-joins-wiz-for-sanders/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.107.74.186 (talk) 18:32, 4 February 2016 (UTC) Danke PotvinSux (talk) 02:55, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Is Clinton's DNC total off by one?

Latest comment: 8 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

I copied the named Super Delegates to excel for my personal tracking and filtering the Lis6 I come up with 206 and not the 205 in the Totals Table. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SPerkinsPol (talk • contribs) 15:46, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

The total is correct. The 8 Democrats Abroad superdelegates are the only delegates to the convention that don't get a full vote (why that is so is a fantastic question). Clinton has received support from two of them so that adds up to 1 vote (not 2), explaining the discrepancy.PotvinSux (talk) 03:04, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Title is misleading/incorrect

Latest comment: 8 years ago5 comments4 people in discussion

"List of Democratic Party superdelegates, 2016"

This is not a comprehensive list of Democratic superdelegates, this is a list of the superdelegates who have declared for a candidate. Undeclared 2016 superdelegates are not listed here.

Suggestion

List of declared Democratic Party superdelegates, 2016 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.93.87.183 (talk)

I agree that the undeclared superdelegates should be listed here for completeness. – Philosopher Let us reason together. 07:03, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
Oh, girls/guys/people, I'm with you. I haven't found a comprehensive list, however. We can start listing the ones we do find! Maybe we should split the work up by state? Also it would help to add a source that people are in fact a superdelegate.PotvinSux (talk) 21:10, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
The rules themselves can be used as a source for many of them, if we're just generating the list. Then we'll want a source for whether/who they are endorsing - the sort of thing that the current list is doing quite well. It couldn't hurt to double-check the O'Malley commitments as well, I suppose.Never mind, it appears that you've already done that. I can work on generating the list. I'll work on some wording for the uncertainty of individuals - what happens in case of a vacancy and suchlike. – Philosopher Let us reason together. 10:11, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
Happy to assist on the Uncommitted List. Divide and conquer seems like best approach to me. The Elected officials ought to be easy enough to Deduce. I know the DPL will include Pres Carter and VP Gore and VP Biden. The DNC Members are the harder part but they will typically be on the State Democratic Party's website. Let me know — Preceding unsigned comment added by SPerkinsPol (talk • contribs) 15:54, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
I have a relatively exhaustive list of the uncommitted DNC members, and will start adding them tonight. There's some uncertainty in some areas (i.e. some states I can find more DNC members than they actually have.), should I provide citations for the fact that they are DNC members? User:Kingerc —Preceding undated comment added 04:29, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Here is a replacement for the broke link: http://www.clarionledger.com/story/news/politics/2016/01/19/mississippi-democratic-super-delegate-supporting-sanders/79000892/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.95.193.74 (talk) 20:16, 21 February 2016 (UTC) Fixed, thanks! Kingerc (talk) 06:34, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

DNC Membership Structure

Latest comment: 8 years ago17 comments4 people in discussion

Following the Charter of the Democratic Party, the DNC membership is comprised of:

  • (112) The Chair and Vice-Chair of the Democratic Parties of each state, as well as DC/PR/VI/GU/AS/MP.
  • (200) 200 Additional members (National Committeemen and -women) apportioned among the states (including PR & DC) on the same basis that delegates are apportioned to the convention, provided each state has at least two. They must be apportioned equally between men and women (or within 1 if there's an odd number). They were selected in 2012, and have a term running from the end of the 2012 convention to the end of the 2016 convention. They were allocated on the same basis as the 2012 convention delegates; i.e. proportional to their share of the total democratic vote for Gore 2000, Kerry 2004, and Obama 2008, as well as their electoral vote from the 200 Census. This gives the following results:
    • 19: CA
    • 11: NY (remembering to use the Democratic total only, not the fusion totals)
    • 10: TX, FL
    • 8: IL, PA
    • 7: OH, MI
    • 5: NJ, NC, GA, MA
    • 4: VA, WA, WI, MN, MO, MD
    • 3: IN, TN, CO, AZ, LA, AL, OR, CT
    • 2: All other states, plus PR & DC.
      • My running of the numbers gives CA one more (20) and CT one less (2), but it's pretty clear the DNC uses the above count, perhaps due to an intermediate rounding step.
  • (8) National Committeemen and -women from VI/GU/AS/MP.
  • (4) Eight members from Democrats Abroad, with a half vote each.
  • (75) At-Large members. These hold a term that's the same as that of the DNC chair; in this case, starting around September 2013. These are not tied to a particular state, see discussion below.
  • (48) Members allocated to various Democratic organizations, including nine officers of the DNC itself.

Note that this adds up to 447, rather than the 436 we have listed on the main page. There are a few reasons for this:

  • (+3) The three "Unassigned" superdelegates we count as DNC members, though they are not voting DNC members normally.
  • (-14) Some DNC members are also superdelegates by virtue of being in Congress, and some people are DNC members twice over, but only get one vote. These include:
    • DNC Chair and FL Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz
    • DNC Vice Chair and HI Rep. Tulsi Gabbard
    • DNC Vice Chair and NH Chair Raymond Buckley
    • 3 members of the Democratic Governors' Association (CT Gov. Dan Malloy, MT Gov. Steve Bullock, NH Gov. Maggie Hassan)
    • 4 slots on the DNC apportioned to Congressional leadership (CA Rep. Nancy Pelosi, NV Sen. Harry Reid, NY Rep. Gregory Meeks, MI Sen. Debbie Stabenow)
    • Any National Committeemen and -women who are also Representatives (CA Rep. Barbara Lee, CA Rep. Maxine Waters, MI Rep. Debbie Dingell, IL Rep. Danny K. Davis)

Note also that several slots are currently vacant: two for the Democratic Lt. Governors' Association, one for the College Democrats of America, the three Unassigned slots, the AL Vice Chair, and a National Committeeman from WI. We also don't really know who the Chair of the National Conference of Democratic Mayors is at the moment, either, though there presumably is one.

The resignation of Tulsi Gabbard means there is a vacant DNC Vice Chair; adding a placeholder. Kingerc (talk) 19:00, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

~~I am unsure that members elected to four year terms by their state parties can convey their rights and privileges to another state should the move. I would think that, the party in their former state would call for an election to complete the term [these are prized positions and are typically ferociously contested]. More over, there would be no place or authority for the new state to "add" the additional member to their delegation. If a DNC member move and the Party Chair does not declare a vacancy than I suppose the Member must still be considered part of the delegation for the state that elected him/her. I would not consider them as part of the new state's delegation as that would at a minimum throw off counts by one in both states. SPerkinsPol (talk) 10:58, 23 February 2016 (UTC). (I agree. I believe the only ones who can move without losing their DNC membership are those elected At-Large and those whose seats are associated with an organization, as opposed to a state. Kingerc (talk) 18:49, 23 February 2016 (UTC) )

At-Large Members

There are, at most, 75 of these. Unlike the other DNC members their position is not tied to a particular state, so they can move around and cause us headaches trying to figure this arithmetic out. The full list (and bios) of the 75 nominated in 2013 by Debbie Wasserman Schultz for a term coterminous with her own can be found here. Alan Clendenin says that all of those 75 were elected, perhaps save one; I believe the PDF given includes all 75 elected names correctly, as Alan Clendenin lists all of them as being elected except Michael Nutter, who we clearly have as a superdelegate already (and would have been unlikely to push for Philadelphia hosting if he were vetoed from joining the DNC). The states they currently reside in are not always the same as the states listed in the PDF; we have the correct states in the article right now (most notably, Juanita Luiz in WA, Alice Germond in VA, Alejandra Salinas in MA, and Tony Coelho in PA), though there's confusion about a few still (see above).

Of those 75, seven have resigned:

They have been replaced by:

At-Large Members from Uncertain States Kingerc (talk) 08:59, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

All of these have largely been clarified by the master DNC list (see below): Daughtry NY, Gebre CA, Griffin MD, Leong-Hong MD, Miller TX, Butler NY.

Ex Officio Members

As mentioned above, there are 48 of these, though 10 of them are already superdelegates for other reasons (the 3 DGA members, the 4 Congressional representatives, plus Debbie Wasserman Schultz, Tulsi Gabbard, and Raymond Buckley. The other 38 are:

  • (6) DNC Officers: Treasurer Andy Tobias (FL), National Finance Chair Henry Muñoz (TX), Secretary Stephanie Rawlings-Blake (MD), Vice Chairs RT Rybak (MN), Donna Brazile (DC), Maria Elena Durazo (CA)
  • (3) National Conference of Democratic Mayors: Unknown Mayor, Sly James (MO), Michael Hancock (CO). Annise Parker (TX) was President until late January. It's unclear who her replacement is, or whether the other delegates were changed at the same time; the most recent DNC count, from before her replacement, still includes Annise Parker. Kingerc (talk) 03:03, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
  • (3) Young Democrats: Louis Elrod (GA), Akilah Ensley (NC), John Keller (IL) (some uncertainly as to whether Elrod is from GA or VA; vast majority of evidence points to GA)
  • (3) Democratic County Officials: Arlanda Williams (LA), Linda Langston (IA), Unzell Kelley (AL) ('not' Hans Reimer of MD)
  • (3) Democratic Legislative Campaign Committee: Mike Gronstal (IA), Garnet Coleman (TX), Valerie Longhurst (DE)
  • (3) National Federation of Democratic Women: Joanne Sullivan (CT), Pat Hobbs (CA), Virgie Rollins (MI)
  • (2) College Democrats of America: Marv McMoore (NY), Vacant
  • (2) National Association of Democratic State Treasurers: John Perdue (WV), Janet Cowell (NC) (one source suggests Beth Pearce (VT) as the female treasurer instead)
  • (2) National Association of Democratic Lieutenant Governors; Vacant Chair, Vacant Vice Chair (opposite sex)
  • (2) Democratic Association of Secretaries of State: Jim Condos (VT), Natalie Tennant (WV)
  • (2) Democratic Attorneys General Association: Ellen Rosenblum (OR), Karl Racine (DC)
  • (2) National Democratic Ethnic Coordinating Committee: Danica Oparnica (AZ), Bruce Morrison (MD)
  • (2) National Democratic Seniors Coordinating Council: Steve Regenstreif (DC), Maria Cordone (MD)

I have a feeling many of them are associated with the various organizations listed in Article II Section 3 of the DNC Charter. For example, if we can find out who the current President and Vice-President of the College Democrats are, that would help (though they are elected annually). Kingerc (talk) 17:38, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

``Just a note about DNC Members. Each state gets an allocation based on (I think) Population (though it might be based on # of Democratic voters in the last election). But the President also gets to appoint two from each state and they serve at his Pleasure. In Georgia that is Dan Halpern and Kasim Reed. If the President has changed out some of those they may not be easily found.SPerkinsPol (talk) 21:48, 18 February 2016 (UTC) (Thanks! I was under the mistaken impression those At-Large members served fixed four-year terms. Kingerc (talk) 00:29, 19 February 2016 (UTC) ) The four year erms only apply to those elected to the DNC by the State Party Committee and can be from anywhere in the state, the Other two (at Large) are appointed by the President. I assume the lose there spot as a PLEO if the White House flips to the GOP).SPerkinsPol (talk) 16:26, 19 February 2016 (UTC)


Over- and Undercounting by DNC Member Accounting

Apart from the questions of Louis Elrod's state of residence, CA/CT rounding, and various Annise Parker issues, we're now good on this front. Removed my infodump here. Kingerc (talk) 06:11, 23 February 2016 (UTC) Louis Elrod, as far as I know is still in Georgia. We are Facebook friends and I have him recently congratulating the new YD Chair in DeKalb County. He would not be shown on the DPG Website as he is not a member of the DPG Representation/Delegation.SPerkinsPol (talk) 10:35, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Kingerc (talk) 21:51, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Just one thing to add for the moment - well two things. First off, this is amazing - thank you for putting this together. Secondly, we are checking against the numbers The Green Papers have - is there good reason to assume that what they show is in fact "correct," especially as far as folks who are between two states?PotvinSux (talk) 04:32, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

The Green Papers gets its overall counts, I believe, from the DNC, which updates its Call to the Convention every once in a while; it lists the total number of unpledged delegates per state (see Appendix B of this very-outdated copy (around 40% of the way down), as an example). The last update on The Green Papers of the unpledged delegates by state was around February 5th, though I don't know how recent the copy of the Call they got their hands on was. In particular, Annise Parker (said Hansen earlier, whoops. Kingerc (talk) 00:57, 23 February 2016 (UTC)) (TX) was a superdelegate up until around January 21, when she was replaced as head of the National Conference of Democratic Mayors. I don't know if her replacement is reflected in the most recent count. Kingerc (talk) 18:03, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

VOX just posted a list from the DNC of superdelegates by state and position as of 1/21/16 [1]. I'll note that it does not include Annise Hansen. It also seems from this list that Michael D. Brown (Shadow Senator from DC) is not listed as a superdelegate (probably because he declared himself an independent in 2014). It also makes it clear what the three vacancies are--two positions in the National Assoc. of Dem. Lt. Governors and one in the College Democrats of America. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.155.204.117 (talk) 15:12, 22 February 2016 (UTC) This is amazing! Thank you so much!! CDA vacancy makes sense considering the leadership kerfluffle last year. Kingerc (talk) 20:46, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Changes To Do (Now Done) Based on the Vox Document

So kindly provided to us recently.

  • Laphonza Butler is in NY, not CA; this resolves our CA overcount and gives us one of our missing New Yorkers.
  • As I had guessed, Michael Hancock (CO) is a delegate from the National Conference of Democratic Mayors.
  • Lisa Padilla is our other missing CO delegate.
  • Valerie Longhurst (DE) is our missing DE and DLCC delegate.
  • Marcus Mason, Mary Beth Cahill and Maria Cardona (DC) are both new At-Large members. Apparently, we were the only folks confusing Cardona with Cardone; they are both separately DNC members in their own right. Leah Daughtry is in NY, not DC. As I suspected, Max Richtman is 'not' a superdelegate, probably for the reasons I outlined above. As mentioned, Shadow Senator Michael Brown is apparently also not a superdelegate, as he is apparently no longer a Democrat.
  • David Shimizu and Taling Taitano are the National Committeeman/woman from Guam, as suspected.
  • Daniel Hynes (IL) is a National Committeeman; Jan Donatelli (IL) is not a superdelegate at all. This restores gender balance in the IL delegation, and the total count works out as well because Rep. Danny K. Davis is also a National Committeeman.
  • Charlotte Lundergan and Charles E. Moore are our missing KY supers.
  • Hans Riemer (MD) is not a delegate from the Democratic County Officials, and should be removed from our list. John Sweeney (MD) is no longer an At-Large member; this resolves our overcount in MD.
  • Alejandra Salinas (MA) is no longer an At-Large member (her LinkedIn agrees). Marv McMoore is in MA, not NY.
  • Sandra Engle (MI) is no longer an At-Large member.
  • Vivian Cook (NY) is a National Committeewoman from New York.
  • Janet Cowell (NC) is the female delegate from the Natl. Assn. of Dem. State Treasurers, not Beth Pearce (VT). Olma Echeverri (NC) is also a National Committeewoman.
  • Rosiky F. Camacho is MP Chair, Theresita B. Pertudo MP Vice-Chair, and John Tunela and Emelia S. Chargualaf are National Committeman/Woman.
  • Valerie McCall (OH) is a National Committeewoman.
  • As suspected, Natalie Tennant (WV) is a Secretary of State delegate. John Perdue (WV) is a Treasurer delegate.
  • The National Committeeman slot once occupied by Rollie Hicks (WI) now appears to be vacant.
  • Beth Pearce (VT) is not a superdelegate; our other source is likely wrong.

Kingerc (talk) 00:57, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

In addition (these do not necessarily require changes in our main article):

  • They list Mike Wenstrup instead of Larry Murakami from Alaska; here, the Vox document is out of date. Mike Wenstrup resigned as Chair in December and was replaced by Vice Chair Casey Steinau. The Vice Chair position has since been filled by Larry Murakami.
  • As I had suspected, my math was wrong on CT and they have 3 National Committeemen/women.
  • Joe Falk (FL) is a new At-Large member.
  • The document lists YDA president Louis Elrod as being in Virginia, rather than Georgia. I suspect this is a mistake, as the last YDA president was from Virginia; they may have updated the name and not the state. The Green Papers count (2/5) is consistent with Elrod being in Georgia, not Virginia. Kingerc (talk) 21:16, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
  • The document lists the Iowa Vice Chair as being vacant; this was in fact filled by Danny Homan in October.
  • The document lists Susie Watkins, rather than Brandi Harless, as being Kentucky Vice Chair. Brandi Harless was elected to the position in March, and she is still listed as such on the KY Dems website.
  • The document forgets to list Gov. Jon Bel Edwards of LA, and still lists Gov. Steve Beshear of KY, so it's clearly not fully up to date as of January 21.
  • The document, amusingly, lists Sheldon Silver as a superdelegate from New York. This is almost certainly no longer the case since his indictment and conviction; who's his replacement? The list also reveals that Trudy Mason is not actually DNC, see above.
  • James Burn Jr. is listed in place of Gerald Lawrence in PA. James Burn was chair until September 2015; I'm assuming the new chair (Marcel Groen) was a National Committeeman and Gerald Lawrence was elected to fill his slot.
  • Annise Parker (sorry I called her Hansen earlier for some reason) is still listed under Natl. Conf. of Dem. Mayors. However, she is no longer President (since around January 21); this may mean the other mayors may have been replaced as well, as the new President gets to pick them.
  • Pamela R. Samuel is listed as Virgin Islands Vice Chair (effectively) rather than Riise Richards. I have no idea what's going on with the USVI Democratic party (see above); either is plausible. Kingerc (talk) 00:57, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
  • The two Lt. Gov. positions and the College VP slot are, as noted, currently vacant. Despite what the document implies, these are in addition to the other 3 Unassigned delegates we already have. Kingerc (talk) 01:16, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Suggested Updates

Latest comment: 8 years ago7 comments2 people in discussion

I have done a deep dive to reconcile the "712" bogey provided in the VOX List with all the great work that has been done here. This should clear up some confusion.

File:VOX List Reconciliation.pdf

SPerkinsPol (talk) 16:49, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

Nice work! A few comments:

  • Alice Cancel replaced Sheldon Silver as a candidate for his NY State Assembly seat, but the DNC slot is not tied to that position. Could just as easily be Joe Morelle (his replacement as Speaker) or any other (presumably male) Democrat in New York. OoopsSPerkinsPol (talk) 20:39, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
  • Jerry Lawrence and Gerald Lawrence are the same person. SPerkinsPol (talk)Yes sorry He was on our list but not on Vox. Burn However was on both and should not have been because of his resignation.SPerkinsPol (talk) 20:39, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
  • The NCDM positions became vacant literally a day or two after the date on the Vox document. Those positions had been occupied by Annise Parker (TX) and Michael Hancock (CO), who were on the Vox list. If we're keeping the vacant Lt. Gov and College Dems positions on our list, we should keep these as well. I'm confident these positions are not actually vacant, and that they were filled at the Winter Meeting of the NCDM in late January. For example, Tallahassee Mayor Andrew Gillum was made an NCDM VP at the same time Annise Parker and Michael Hanock left. (Not all NCDM VPs are superdelegates, and in fact I'm pretty sure Andrew Gillum is not a superdelegate, but this is another sign the organization is active and picking new leadership). This is why they are listed as "Unknown" rather than "Vacant" on our list. Kingerc (talk) 18:17, 8 March 2016 (UTC) Gotcha. Thoush their the DemMayors website still list them as Chair and VC. The difference between the mayors and the "LG"s is that the LGs slots are not on the Vox DNC list and the Mayor positiions are. Adding the LGs would push the list beyond the 712/716 bogey. SPerkinsPol (talk) 20:39, 8 March 2016 (UTC) The vacant LG and CDA positions are listed (under Unassigned) in the Vox document, and is part of their total count of 712. Kingerc (talk) 00:54, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
  • Checking the Green Papers again, it seems that none of the most recent 4 conventions actually had Unassigned delegates despite the provision for them existing. I'd be fine with removing them, especially since they didn't appear on the Vox List.
  • The article on Riise Richards is from 2005. She's had a political career since then, so I'm guessing she was cleared. That said, there was some confusion about whether she is VI Vice Chair or not. That said, the only source we have saying she is VI Vice chair is this article; Vox lists Pamela R. Samuel, instead. Kingerc (talk) 18:12, 8 March 2016 (UTC) Again Ooops  :) I have reached out to Jonae Wartel at the ASDC who I know. She should have a quick answer on this, SPerkinsPol (talk) 20:39, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

I hope the rest was usefulSPerkinsPol (talk) 20:39, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

As if the average consumer, actually want's to see who the Super delegates are and who they are supporting... haha. I think people who visit are probably the types who read fivethirtyeight.com BEFORE their first cup of coffee. SPerkinsPol (talk) 21:59, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Keeping the list/count up to date

Latest comment: 8 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion

Someone edited the main list to say that Heather Mizeur and Donna Edwards are incorrectly assigned. For Donna Edwards, there are multiple sources listing her endorsement, so I'm confident about that one. For Heather Mizeur, the only thing we have is her attendance at a Ready for Hillary fundraiser. We usually take this to be an endorsement, though it should be noted it was before either candidate entered the race. Note also that she threatened to resign from the DNC last December if Sanders' access to the DNC voter file was not restored: "The DNC is expected to stay neutral and supportive of all candidates during the primaries..." Don't think we should change anything for now, but we should keep an eye on her. Kingerc (talk) 16:13, 14 March 2016 (UTC) Yeah I understand the complaint about MD Supers. Comes with the territory. But that was not the individual that hose up the high level table and undid Kaptur, Gilligan and the MP Supers. Glad to see order restored. OH BTW there is a delta of 1 on the Representatives between the verbage at the top of the page and the summary table SPerkinsPol (talk) 17:26, 14 March 2016 (UTC) Yeah there was one too many Reps. in the totals. Fixed that. Agree that Mizeur is a tricky one. I think being on a host committee for a Ready for Hillary event is positive confirmation, but the Facebook comment would override that if she includes herself in the neutrality. It's not clear though whether she does. I'd leave her for now.PotvinSux (talk) 21:12, 15 March 2016 (UTC)


This New York Times article says Sanders has 16 superdelegates: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/19/us/politics/hillary-clinton-readies-for-a-long-slog-against-bernie-sanders.html

Anyone know good resources to help us keep this list up to date? --John_Abbe (talk) 19:39, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

We list individuals folks here based on a variety of publicly available sources. The CNN delegate tracker is currently down. It appears both Bloomberg and the NY Times use the AP's numbers which are based on the survey they did in November. The AP seems to be under the impression that since that survey was taken Sanders has gained 0 delegates and Clinton has gained 3. This is ludicrous - they've both gained a significant number since then. These totals are completely untransparent and it is difficult to know what to do when they disagree with each other, which is a part of the reason we've put effort into this page and why an analogous page existed for the last contested Democratic primary.PotvinSux (talk) 03:01, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

New AP Survey says 445 Clinton - 23 Sanders, leapfrogging our count again. Do we want to add this at the top of the page? Also, hopefully we should get some state-level AP stories in the next few days, giving us some new names. Kingerc (talk) 21:33, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

Republican Uncommitted Delegates

Latest comment: 8 years ago5 comments2 people in discussion

Is anyone aware yet of any equivalent resource to this page for the Republican uncommitted delegates? According to Greenpapers ( http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P16/ ) there are now 18 of these, some of which already have actual humans assigned to the slots, and there are expected to be quite a few more before the process is complete. (Although maybe a few dozen, not hundreds like the Democrats.) Like the Democratic superdelegates, these uncommitted superdelegates will be free agents at the convention, able to vote their own preferences. With various projections showing Trump has a good chance of ending up just short of the magic number in pledged delegates, these uncommitted delegates may end up being important in the process. It seems like starting to track any public preferences these delegates express might be useful. Abulsme (talk) 19:37, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

OK, in case there is interest (other than me), I just compiled a starting list of the 18 GP has in their count so far:

  1. GU - Senator Frank Blas, Jr. ( http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P16/GU-R )
  2. GU - Senator Tony Ada ( http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P16/GU-R )
  3. GU - Juan Carlos Benitez ( http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P16/GU-R )
  4. GU - Benny Pinaula ( http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P16/GU-R )
  5. GU - former Senator Telo Taitague ( http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P16/GU-R )
  6. GU - Mike Benito (Republican Party Chairman) ( http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P16/GU-R )
  7. GU - David Sablan ( http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P16/GU-R )
  8. GU - Margaret Metcalfe (National Committeewoman) ( http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P16/GU-R )
  9. LA - Unknown #1 - Individual should have been selected at the March 12th State Convention ( http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P16/LA-R )
  10. LA - Unknown #2 - Individual should have been selected at the March 12th State Convention ( http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P16/LA-R )
  11. LA - Unknown #3 - Individual should have been selected at the March 12th State Convention ( http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P16/LA-R )
  12. LA - Unknown #4 - Individual should have been selected at the March 12th State Convention ( http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P16/LA-R )
  13. LA - Unknown #5 - Individual should have been selected at the March 12th State Convention ( http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P16/LA-R )
  14. OK - TBD #1 - Scheduled to be selected during the April 16th State Convention ( http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P16/OK-R )
  15. OK - TBD #2 - Scheduled to be selected during the April 16th State Convention ( http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P16/OK-R )
  16. VI - David Johnson ( https://twitter.com/ZekeJMiller/status/712331426725830657 )
  17. VI - Andrea Lee Moeekel ( https://twitter.com/ZekeJMiller/status/712331426725830657 )
  18. WY - Unknown #6 - From Crook County - Individual should have been selected at the March 12th Caucuses ( http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P16/WY-R)

Abulsme (talk) 20:16, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

A couple good places are Taniel's spreadsheet (third sheet) and The Delegate Fight. Kingerc (talk) 21:15, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Thanks very much for that. Very useful! Any support for actually using those sources as the starting point for a Wikipedia page parallel to the Democratic Superdelegate page with similar format, etc.? It seems like this too would be a list that would be "notable". Abulsme (talk) 06:02, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

OK, I'm not at the point I would presume to try to create a new Wikipedia page on my own and I'm not even sure if you have to have special permissions to do that, but I took a shot at wikifying this on my personal wiki. For now I've only included the 28 delegates The Green Papers are counting in their "soft" uncommitted total, although I understand the reasons Taniel and Delegate Fight have for including others. I expect GP will be adding at least the 25 from North Dakota to their uncommitted totals soon. In any case, if any more experienced Wikipedians want to use this as the starting point for a page here, please feel absolutely free. In the meantime, I'm going to try to keep my personal copy roughly up to date. (Of course edits by others are welcome as well.) It is here: http://wiki.abulsme.com/2016_Republican_Uncommitted_and_Unbound_Delegates Abulsme (talk) 07:43, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

715 or 714?

Latest comment: 8 years ago6 comments2 people in discussion

This table now lists 719 individuals (great job tracking them all down!), including 8 with a half-vote, yielding 715 votes. However the delegate table by states lists 714 votes and we use this number on the main page for the Democratic primary, as reported in several sources, including the DNC themselves. I don't see an obvious error in the state totals, which even include a mysterious "unassigned" lone delegate, so I wonder if there is an extra person in this list who shouldn't be mentioned. Experts, what say you? — JFG talk 09:54, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

The extra is the one generic "Unassigned" listed. The mysterious "Unassigned" in The Green Papers is more than likely the DNC Vice Chair position left vacant by Tulsi Gabbard's resignation, who we already have listed. It's listed as Unassigned by the DNC because we don't yet know what state the new DNC Vice Chair will be from. I'll just go ahead and remove the generic "Unassigned" so that we're in agreement on the numbers. (Separately, I'm pretty sure Myron Lowery of TN has been replaced by someone from another state, but that doesn't affect the overall count). Kingerc (talk) 17:17, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. It does appear that Tennessee has 9 persons listed vs 8 assigned per official DNC rules, but if you remove one there, we'll be down to 713... Other discrepancies: CA -2, CT -1, DC -1, OH -1; would those match your current 5 unassigned delegates? — JFG talk 01:29, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
FYI I updated the lead with accurate delegate totals and explaining the half-votes. — JFG talk 03:33, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
It would seem that Myron Lowery has been replaced as a Democratic Municipal Officials representative to the DNC, so the total count would remain the same if we removed him and replaced him with an unassigned placeholder. His slot, and the other 4 unassigned we have, presumably have been filled by folks from CA, CT, DC, and OH. Process of elimination suggests the CT delegate is the Lt. Gov. delegate, who would be Nancy Wyman (though this may qualify as original research). Unsure of the identities of the other four delegates at present. Kingerc (talk) 05:33, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
If you can source his replacement, then let's remove him. — JFG talk 09:56, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Summary table

Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I placed the summary table in a template, so that updates are automatically shared with the main page Democratic Party presidential primaries, 2016. — JFG talk 09:56, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Katherine Fernandez Rundle

Latest comment: 8 years ago2 comments1 person in discussion

I have raised a question at Talk:Katherine Fernandez Rundle regarding the accuracy of her inclusion on this List. Please see that Talk for further details.--TommyBoy (talk) 06:18, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Nevermind, question answered and according to the discussion on that Talk page, she is a Democrat.--TommyBoy (talk) 14:25, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Bill Clinton

Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Bill Clinton should be assigned as a superdelegate to Hillary Clinton. What he implies here: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/bill-clinton-back-bernie-sanders-wins-primary-article-1.2584140 is that he will vote for Sanders if Hillary tells him to. This is not the same as being uncommitted. Thinking back to 2008, most superdelegates supporting Clinton ultimately voted for Obama but by the time the convention came around the nomination was no longer contested.

What this list should represent is a snapshot of how the delegates would vote if there is a contested convention. That is the value of this list, for tracking the candidates' progress towards the nomination.


Oh come on! Really??? Bill will vote for Hillary. If his vote is needed to secure the nomination, the Party is going to be in a heap of trouble.SPerkinsPol (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:34, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

"CD" as a category in list? What is it?!

Latest comment: 8 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion

Some delegates have a "CD" number in their list. I have no idea what it means, what it stands for or why it's abbreviated (in an article already full of Cs and Ds in initialisms). Can someone please clarify in the article?

CD refers to the Delegate's Congressional District and is a reference related only to Congressmen and Congresswoman.SPerkinsPol (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:13, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

I'm honestly not sure why it's included, as it only applies to a relatively small class of superdelegates. If people want to know what Congressional District they represent, they all have articles on Wikipedia. Kingerc (talk) 05:11, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

I would support removing these - I'm not sure that it adds something so valuable that would support its inclusion when it affects only between a fifth and a quarter of Superdelegates.PotvinSux (talk) 16:27, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Removed it. Kingerc (talk) 02:34, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Uncommitted Distinguished Party Leader List

Latest comment: 8 years ago50 comments4 people in discussion

Barrack Obama IL Jimmy Carter GA Joe Biden DE Al Gore TN


Nancy Pelosi CA (House ML) Richard Gephardt MO Steny Hoyer MD

Harry Reid NV (Senate ML) George Mitchell ME

Chris Dodd CT (DNC Chair)

Hoyer is now Minority Whip, But I think his tenure as Majority Leader (Pelosi was Speaker) Puts him in this category rather than "Just a Rep" where he is currently listed as a Clinton SD

If Hoyer is in fact where he is supposed to be then perhaps the other Missing DPL of the ten is Wasserman-Shultz as Current Party Chair. She will not endorse either Clinton or Sanders so her inclusion is pretty moot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SPerkinsPol (talk • contribs) 17:14, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Yeah this is a bizarre logic puzzle. One thing to note is that the Green Papers (where these numbers come from) group people in the following order:

1: Current Rep. or Sen. 2: DNC 3: DPL

So Donald Fowler, for example, who is a former DNC Chair counts as DNC rather than DPL and Nancy Pelosi and Hoyer and Reid will count as Rep. and Sen. Dodd has endorsed Clinton and I just added him. Gephardt is already on the list. We're looking for 9 more.

1)Obama 2)Carter 3)Biden 4)Gore 5)George Mitchell 6)Joseph Andrew (former DNC Chair) 7)Debra DeLee (ditto) 8)David Wilhelm (ditto) 9)Fred R. Harris (ditto)

That should be them. I'll add them and remaining Senators and Representatives - then we can get to the fun of DNC members. BTW, we should have sources to prove DNC members are DNC members. Few of them have pages to confirm that fact. As a heads up, a good number of the party websites do not list all of their DNC members.PotvinSux (talk) 03:23, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Added Governors too. All that's left is DNC members.PotvinSux (talk) 05:15, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Uncommitted DNC Members to Add

By my calculations (and they may be imperfect because I am not sure where the DPL's all live presently - I assigned them to the state where they were counted in 2008) we need this many additional DNC members for each state/territory:

Discrepancies with Bloomberg Tracker

Couldn't use the info to find any new certain delegate endorsements, but noticed their total superdelegate count was different from ours (i.e. The Green Papers/Vox Bible) in many states:

Our two "unassigned" delegates are thus College Democrats' Vice President and Tulsi Gabbard's slot as DNC Vice Chair. Note that the latter is on neither the Vox Document nor Appendix B, as she resigned after both documents were drawn up. So we're up to two unassigned now. Kingerc (talk) 22:13, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

  • DC: 26 (0) (Added Shadow Senator Michael Brown. Kingerc (talk) 20:43, 9 April 2016 (UTC) Brown is not on the Vox List (published January 21 but noted to be out of date in places), but DC is listed as having 3 Democratic Members of Congress in the February 19 version of Appendix B of the Call, which means Michael Brown is apparently included again. Note that only the Delegate to Congress and the Shadow Senators are eligible; DC's "Shadow Representative" is not a superdelegate by virtue of their position. Maximum is 3, they have 3, so Brown must be a super. Kingerc (talk) 21:47, 9 April 2016 (UTC)) @Kingerc: I doubt this; the document still mentions a total of 26 superdelegates for DC and 714 total votes; since you added Brown, our list now has 27 people for DC and 715 total votes (719 people). How can we find out for sure? — JFG talk 05:34, 10 April 2016 (UTC) (@JFG: Adding Brown actually solves a mystery for DC; before, we had 25 people for DC whereas the list said there were 26. Adding Brown makes our count in DC 26, matching the list and solving all possible discrepancies for DC. The grand total (715 vs. 714) is still different, but that's as it should be. DNC Vice Chairs are automatically superdelegates, but Tulsi Gabbard is still a superdelegate since she's a congresswoman. As a result, Tulsi Gabbard's resignation as DNC Vice Chair (after the publication of the list) effectively added a new superdelegate slot to be filled. Of course, it could easily be filled by another US Rep., but no guarantee of that. Kingerc (talk) 15:46, 10 April 2016 (UTC) ) @Kingerc: You are correct, I had counted wrongly 27 for DC (sitting in front of my screen for too long, I guess). — JFG talk 01:59, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
  • DC - It seems doubtful that Michael D. Brown is a superdelegate. The purported source, February 19 version of Appendix B of the Call does not list individual names and was not necessarily updated to reflect Brown's departure from the Democratic party. Brown's status as a non-Democrat did not change between Jan. 21, 2016, when the Vox list was prepared and where he is not listed, and Feb. 19, 2016. Also, as of Feb. 18 the [Associated Press] counts DC as having 25 superdelegates. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.185.23.93 (talk) 16:12, 10 April 2016 (UTC) The Vox Document, as established elsewhere in this Talk Page, is more out of date in some places than the topline date suggests. As a result, we've found multiple errors with that document, but none so far with Appendix B. The WTOP article may just be one day too old to account for the new information. Furthermore, the Bloomberg tracker (which is based on the AP surveys) lists 26 superdelegates out of DC, not 25. As to why Brown was re-added, I presume it is just a reinterpretation issue, rather than an actual change in his status. Note that the DC Democratic Party prominently features him as one of "Our Party's Elected Leaders." In any event, the most recent source we have (Appendix B of the call, prepared by the DNC itself), lists 3 Democratic Members of Congress from DC, which by the rules of the DNC, can be no other than Paul Strauss, Eleanor Holmes Norton, and Michael Brown, and their total count of 26 is corroborated by Bloomberg. Kingerc (talk) 16:29, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

The DC Democratic Party Rule 9.A.(3) states that "All of District of Columbia’s Democratic Members of the U.S. House of Representatives and the U.S. Senate" qualify as unpledged delegates. As a non-Democrat Brown does not qualify, and under this rule it seems more likely that if there is a 26th superdelegate, that it would be Franklin Garcia, not Michael Brown, since the rule makes no distinction between shadow Representatives and shadow Senators. Since Appendix B does not list names it seems incorrect to automatically assume that Brown is the superdelegate.216.185.23.93 (talk) 17:18, 10 April 2016 (UTC) The Call to the Convention (2012 version here; it did not change in the 2016 version but my only link to the latter seems to have vanished off the internet) explicitly says that included among the superdelegates are "Democratic Members of the United States House of Representatives and Democratic United States Senators from that state or territory (if any). The District of Columbia’s Statehood Senators, if Democrats, shall be treated as Democratic United States Senators." Note that it explicitly does not say that shadow Representatives are superdelegates, just Shadow Senators; a distinction is very clearly made. Eleanor Holmes Norton is a (non-voting) member of the U.S. House of Representatives, as is Stacey Plaskett of the Virgin Islands, etc.; they are members, serve on Committees, etc., they just don't get to vote. Franklin Garcia is not a member, and since no special provision is made for Shadow Representatives (unlike Shadow Senators), Brown, Norton, and Strauss are the only possible people who can be the three superdelegates mentioned in Appendix B. The DC Democratic party considers Brown to be a Democrat, and Appendix B tells us that the national Democratic party does as well. Accordingly, I'm restoring Brown. Kingerc (talk) 20:34, 10 April 2016 (UTC) (This seems to have been resolved; thanks for tracking down that Facebook page! I did meanwhile track down a copy of the 2016 Call for future reference. Kingerc (talk) 22:19, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

This is a net gain of four; guessing the Lt. Gov., NCDM, and CDA positions have been filled? If so, one of the Lt. Gov. positions would have to be Nancy Wyman (CT), only female Democratic Lt. Gov. from these states. Kingerc (talk) 08:24, 27 February 2016 (UTC) Yeah, you're almost certainly right but we probably can't list her for the moment - I think that would qualify as "original research." Actually, my having listed Hunkin for Sanders might also be OR now that I think about it.PotvinSux (talk) 04:12, 28 February 2016 (UTC) (I think listing Hunkin for Sanders is fine; we did essentially the same thing for Lottie Shackelford earlier. Agreed that Nancy Wyman is probably a stretch though, OR-wise, at the moment. Kingerc (talk) 04:42, 28 February 2016 (UTC) )

The Green Papers now agrees with the Bloomberg count here. The only overcount we have is in Tennessee, which is again presumably Myron Lowery. I'm thinking we should remove him? Interestingly, The Green Papers now only lists 1 Unassigned delegate (rather than 3), as has been noted by someone in a recent edit. The Green Papers also says that Unassigned delegate must be a DNC member, which leads me to believe it's the DNC Vice Chair slot vacated by Tulsi Gabbard's resignation. Unless anyone objects, I may remove Myron Lowery and that last Unassigned delegate in a day or two. Kingerc (talk) 04:24, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

I've removed Myron Lowery. Combined with our knowledge that Michael Hancock is no longer a superdelegate, this tweet by Annise Parker strongly suggests that Eric Garcetti of CA and Nan Whaley of OH replaced Parker and Hancock at the NCDM. Together with Nancy Wyman (CT), this accounts for everything except one delegate in DC and one in CA, which must be the College Dems VP and the replacement for Myron Lowery (in no particular order). I may add them in a few days, if no one objects. Kingerc (talk) 16:22, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Remaining Uncertainties (non-exhaustive list)

  • TX: Added Annise Parker; apparently still Chair of National Conference of Democratic Mayors despite her no longer being Mayor of Houston. If she's replaced at some point, overall count in Texas would change. Kingerc (talk) 03:40, 20 February 2016 (UTC) I notice you removed Annise Parker; does this mean that there is a missing TX delegate after all? Overall delegate count *would* change - but how do we know that Green Papers (where the state-by-state numbers are from) did not already reflect that change?PotvinSux (talk) 18:09, 21 February 2016 (UTC) (I honestly have no idea. My initial comment was from when I first found Annise Parker, not knowing she had already been replaced on January 21 or so. Kingerc (talk) 18:17, 21 February 2016 (UTC) ) (She was replaced around January 21, but our latest counts for statewide totals are from the same date and don't reflect this. What do we want to do here? Kingerc (talk) 02:48, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

@Kingerc: Wow, that was awfully nice of Vox - and you for going through the list. (Though we didn't do all that badly without it!) As for Parker, how is it we know that she was replaced as head of NCDM but not who she was replaced by? If we do have confirmation that she is no longer there, then it seems reasonable to include a placeholder for her and the other mayors.PotvinSux (talk) 03:16, 23 February 2016 (UTC) (Source for her being the 'former' President can be found here. @PotvinSux: No solid leads on her replacement at the moment; I don't think we should remove Sly James and Michael Hancock just yet. Per the Democratic bylaws, the other 2 delegates from the Mayors Conference are not chosen by the President directly (I was mistaken earlier), so I don't think we can assume they've been replaced. If I had to guess who got Annise Parker's slot as the female mayor, it would be Marilyn Strickland, mayor of Tacoma, WA and until recently at least the Vice President of the National Conference of Democratic Mayors. I'll add a placeholder for the presidency in the meantime. Kingerc (talk) 03:25, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

@Kingerc: Alright - so we have 717 entries now - that seems wrong. There are 712 votes and 4 extra because of the Democrats Abroad half-vote. So that should be 716. Where is that extra one coming from? Also, are there supposed to be three Unassigned delegates on top of the three Unassigned delegates from the VoxBible?PotvinSux (talk) 03:42, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

@PotvinSux: The Unassigned delegates (i.e. those listed in The Green Papers) are on top of those from the Vox Bible. They are there for other officers of the DNC (see Call to the Convention I.F: "Additional unpledged delegates shall be allocated for other officers serving in three (3) positions created by the Democratic National Committee in accordance with Article 3, Section 1.e. of the Charter of the Democratic Party of the United States.). This means there should be a total of 715 superdelegate votes, or a total of 719 entries once the DA half-votes are accounted for. Who are we missing? Kingerc (talk) 03:49, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

@Kingerc: I hate to keep going back to the Green Papers because you may have superseded them at this point, but they have 712 Superdelegate votes including three that they label unassigned. Does the analysis in the section after the break indicate that they're wrong and should have 715? Otherwise we should have 716 entries meaning we have one extra. PotvinSux (talk) 03:42, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

@PotvinSux: The two missing are two from Guam that I forgot to add, doing so now. I don't think The Green Papers is wrong per se, it's just a matter of interpretation. The empty Lt. Gov / CDA slots don't really exist right now, as it's unclear if they're going to be filled by the convention. Or, more to the point, I assume The Green Papers didn't have access to a list of DNC members, just a more recent version of the Call to the Convention, which would have included counts by state (but not names or roles); this would have left off the three vacant Ex Officio slots that aren't tied to any state in particular. Kingerc (talk) 04:02, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Sly James, at least, is still a representative from the NCDM. Kingerc (talk) 07:34, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

Bloomberg count suggests only 12 superdelegates in CO. Perhaps Michael Hancock no longer NCDM super? Kingerc (talk) 07:44, 27 February 2016 (UTC) Bloomberg also says only 29 superdelegates in TX, which helps confirm Annise Parker no longer TX super. Kingerc (talk) 07:50, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

Who, exactly, counts as the NY Democratic Vice Chair? Is it Sheila Comar, the Executive Committee Chair? Or Trudy Mason, the Vice Chair? I guess we'd been implicitly assuming the latter, but the Vox List suggests that it would be Sheila Comar (Trudy Mason is nowhere to be seen). The rub here is that Sheldon Silver is also listed by the Vox list. He is almost certainly not a superdelegate (or if he is, will not be by July; they aren't going to furlough him to let him vote at Philadelphia)---and we have no idea who replaced him. Presumably not Sheila Comar, as she was already on the list, and definitely not Trudy Mason, as Sheldon Silver wasn't Vice Chair. I'm thinking we should remove Trudy Mason here and replace her slot (which we assigned to her incorrectly) with a placeholder? Kingerc (talk) 07:42, 23 February 2016 (UTC) Yeah, a place-holder seems best. There's no case for Mason and it would be hard to believe that Silver hasn't been removed yet.PotvinSux (talk) 06:55, 25 February 2016 (UTC) New York Post confirms Sheldon Silver is no longer a superdelegate; apparently his replacement will be announced in May. Kingerc (talk) 16:13, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

  • VI: (VI Democrats are a mess, but AP still thinks no permanent leadership changeover Kingerc (talk) 09:43, 17 February 2016 (UTC)) Further confusion with the Vox List, which seems to claim Pamela R. Samuel as Vice Chair rather than Riise Richards. What do we do here? Kingerc (talk) 07:42, 23 February 2016 (UTC) I say go with Vox - that's based on pretty recent party documents, which seems to be a more reliable source than AP's interpretations. PotvinSux (talk) 06:55, 25 February 2016 (UTC) (Normally I'd agree, except the Vox document has a pretty bad track record when it comes to keeping track of Chairs/Vice Chairs of state parties (see below); they've missed a lot of 2015 leadership changeovers. Kingerc (talk) 19:38, 25 February 2016 (UTC) Presumably if they were in office (but MIA) in September they had held the position for a while. That would mean that if the Vox document is out of date with respect to them it is really out of date. We have cases where Vox misses a leadership transition, but I don't think there's a case where they make one up.PotvinSux (talk) 04:28, 27 February 2016 (UTC) This source confirms Riise Richards is still Vice Chair, but says there may be a new leadership election in June. Kingerc (talk) 15:07, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

All DNC members apparently accounted for:

  • AL:0 Vice Chair of AL is currently vacant due to the death of Redding Pitt. Kingerc (talk) 09:22, 19 February 2016 (UTC) (Added placeholder in meantime. Kingerc (talk) 03:40, 20 February 2016 (UTC) )
  • AK:0
  • AR:0
  • AS:0 (American Samoa)
  • AZ:0
  • CA:0 (One extra here, all listed by http://www.cadem.org/our-party/national-convention/dnc-members Kingerc (talk) 18:51, 17 February 2016 (UTC)) (Moved Laphonza Butler to NY. Kingerc (talk) 02:48, 23 February 2016 (UTC))
  • CO:0 [though Barbara Jones link doesn't talk about her, are we sure about her? Kingerc (talk) 05:48, 17 February 2016 (UTC)] She shouldn't be on here - she's a 2nd Vice-Chair. Removed her and changed 1>2.PotvinSux (talk) 08:13, 17 February 2016 (UTC) (Added Lisa Padilla, Michael Hancock. Kingerc (talk) 02:48, 23 February 2016 (UTC) )
  • CT:0
  • DA:0
  • DC:0 (Addition of Karl Racine means we have one too many. Perhaps Leah Daughtry or Lee Saunders actually in NY? Unless you know something I don't, they seem to both be based in Washington.PotvinSux (talk) 03:46, 19 February 2016 (UTC) Kingerc (talk) 23:43, 18 February 2016 (UTC) ) Added Max RichtmanPotvinSux (talk) 04:31, 18 February 2016 (UTC) (Further investigation has led me to believe that Max Richtman is perhaps not a DNC member. He is certainly on the National Democratic Seniors Coordinating Council, which is entitled to two slots on the DNC, but one of those is filled by Steve Regenstrief (as chair) and the other one has to be a woman for gender balance [presumably, it's Maria Cordone]. He's clearly from DC, but is not their National Committeeman (Arrington Dixon), and doesn't belong to any of the other groups that get representation on the DNC. This leaves the possibilities that either A) he was appointed to fill an At-Large vacancy or B) as a member of the NDSCC, he was at the DNC Summer Meeting, signed the Iran letter that fellow Washingtonian James Zogby was circulating, and got on the list that way. I'd like to find some independent evidence that he's on the DNC, and have yet to find any. Kingerc (talk) 07:51, 20 February 2016 (UTC) ) (Alternatively, there could be confusion between Maria Cardona (DC) and Maria Cordone (MD)? This seems relatively unlikely, though. That said, I'm not exactly sure how Maria Cardona is a DNC member; perhaps she's a replacement At-Large member? This might be it! I can't find a source - I must have made a mistake adding her in the first place. Nice catch! I'm removing Maria Cardona.Kingerc (talk) 08:07, 20 February 2016 (UTC) ) (The original source is the the AP survey back in November. Maria Cardona is a highly-connected Democratic operative, and she could very well be a newly-appointed At-Large delegate; but it's entirely plausible that the AP just screwed up here. Kingerc (talk) 04:28, 21 February 2016 (UTC) ) (Relevant quote from the AP article is "Some of the Clinton superdelegates who call Washington home have a long history with her, including Harold Ickes, who served as White House deputy chief of staff under Bill Clinton, and political consultants Maria Cardona and Minyon Moore, both of whom worked on her 2008 campaign. “It was not a tough decision for me,” Cardona said. “I have for a very long time thought that she would make a terrific president.”" AP clearly thinks she's a superdelegate; I don't know if we can assume they screwed up? Kingerc (talk) 08:21, 21 February 2016 (UTC) ) Oh - you know the link had somehow gotten switched for her to something less helpful. That's why I deleted her In short, no I don't think we can assume AP screwed up though the chances of that are not negligible in this case.PotvinSux (talk) 21:06, 22 February 2016 (UTC) (The superlist of superdelegates (see below) does indeed list Cardona but not Richtman. Kingerc (talk) 21:28, 22 February 2016 (UTC) ) (Removed Richtman. Kingerc (talk) 02:48, 23 February 2016 (UTC) )
  • DE:0 (could be Tony Coelho, but then PA is missing one instead Kingerc (talk) 17:38, 17 February 2016 (UTC)) (Added Valerie Longhurst Kingerc (talk) 02:48, 23 February 2016 (UTC) )
  • FL:0
  • GA:0 (We've got one extra. All are listed on GA Dems' website except Louis Elrod (automatic DNC member as President of Young Democrats of America) and Leslie Small. Are we sure Leslie Small is DNC? Kingerc (talk) 06:00, 17 February 2016 (UTC)) Well, we have a solid source. We should definitely keep note of her though. PotvinSux (talk) 08:25, 17 February 2016 (UTC) (My guess is that Leslie Small is a member of the DNC Youth Council, but is not actually a DNC member himself? Kingerc (talk) 09:52, 17 February 2016 (UTC))
Leslie Small is not A DNC Member. He is the Husband of Nikema WIlliams who is the Vice Chair for the GA Party. I assume he ventured on to this great list because he was included in a Press Release that wound up in the Atlanta Paper. I have nothing left to say about How he wound up on the Press Release. other than I used to be a State Committeeman here in GA and was a Delegate to Charlotte and it it this sort of things is one of the reasons why. LOL SPerkinsPol (talk) 19:59, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
Thank you very much for the update. That's a plausible explanation of the discrepancy - removing him. Changing -1>0PotvinSux (talk) 23:00, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Missing Endorsements (vs. AP/Bloomberg)

Latest comment: 8 years ago4 comments1 person in discussion

The AP survey obviously has greater reach than we do, and isn't great about identifying the individuals they've surveyed. Still, I figure it would be useful to list the states where they have *more* listed endorsements than we do, to help focus further searching. All of the following results are from the Bloomberg tracker, which gets its results from the AP. Thanks to Sanders' recent release of his superdelegates, all of the following are missing Clinton endorsements:

  • Colorado (1) (Added Anthony Graves. Perhaps they forgot to remove Michael Hancock? Kingerc (talk) 02:59, 13 April 2016 (UTC))
  • Massachusetts (1)
  • Tennessee (1) Perhaps they forgot to remove Myron Lowery?
  • Texas (1) Perhaps they forgot to remove Annise Parker?
  • Vermont (1) It would seem they still have Pat Leahy in the Clinton column.
  • Missouri (1)
  • Delaware (2)
  • Guam (1)
  • West Virginia (4)
  • Virgin Islands (1)
  • California (2) Added Eric Garcetti and Evan Low Kingerc (talk) 03:46, 13 April 2016 (UTC); according to Jasminious, the remaining two would be Kerman Maddox and Joe Buscaino.
  • Montana (1) Apparently this is Jacquie Helt, though she denies it.

Kingerc (talk) 17:12, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Superdelegates in Multiple Categories

Latest comment: 8 years ago22 comments4 people in discussion
RESOLVED
Priority order for assigning each delegate to a category is: first Governors, Senators and Representatives, then DNC members, finally DPLs.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

@Ethandodd: So, you're absolutely right that we're not being careful about which category each superdelegate falls into. In part, this is just convenience; it's easier to remember that Dan Malloy is a superdelegate by virtue of him being Governor of Connecticut, rather than by virtue of being a DNC member by virtue of being the Chairman of the Democratic Governors' Association.

That said, you are probably right that we should do the accounting the same way the DNC does, for consistency's sake. To help update the list appropriately, here's all the superdelegates that qualify as such by holding two different roles. Note that this may differ from the (DNC Vote Only) in the Vox Document. Our list is more up to date than theirs.

  • Rep. Nancy Pelosi (CA). DNC member by virtue of being House Minority Leader, also is a Representative. DNC gets priority.
  • Rep. Barbara Lee (CA). Representative and DNC member; DNC gets priority.
  • Rep. Maxine Waters (CA). Representative and DNC member; DNC gets priority.
  • Gov. Dan Malloy (CT). DNC Member (as DGA chair) and Govenor; DNC gets priority.
  • Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz (FL). DNC Member (as DNC Chair) and Representative. DNC gets priority.
  • Rep. Debbie Dingell (MI). DNC Member and Representative; DNC gets priority.
  • Rep. Danny K. Davis (MI). DNC Member and Representative; DNC gets priority.
  • Sen. Debbie Stabenow (MI). DNC Member (representing the Senate) and Senator. DNC gets priority.
  • Gov. Steve Bullock (MT). DNC Member (representing the DGA) and Governor; DNC gets priority.
  • Sen. Harry Reid (NV). DNC Member (as Senate Minority Leader) and Senator. DNC gets priority.
  • Gov. Maggie Hassan (NH). DNC Member (representing the DGA) and Governor; DNC gets priority.
  • Rep. Gregory Meeks (NY). DNC Member (representing the US House) and Representative; DNC gets priority.
  • Donald Fowler (SC). DPL (as former DNC Chair) and DNC member; DNC member gets priority (we already had this one right).

In addition, Raymond Buckley (NH) would qualify as a DNC member twice over (as DNC Vice Chair and NH Chair), but of course only gets one vote. These are the same as the "DNC Vote Only" people in the Vox Document, with the pointed exception of Rep. Tulsi Gabbard, who resigned as DNC Vice Chair and thus counts as a Rep., not DNC anymore. The current counts (though not names) can be found in this more recent document from the DNC. Our list is entirely in agreement with this document, with the sole exception of Tulsi Gabbard's DNC Vice Chair seat, which became vacant after the publication of this document.

Now, the question is what we want to do about this. Our policy so far has been to list people as elected officials (Gov./Sen./Rep.) first, then as DNC members, then as DPLs. This is easier for comprehension, as pointed out above--everyone thinks of Debbie Stabenow as a Senator rather than a DNC member--but is not what the DNC does (and does make it more difficult to compare to official DNC publications). I'm interested to see what others think about this. If we do decide to follow the DNC's lead, we'd get -3 Gov., -2 Sen., -7 Rep., +12 DNC, +0 DPL versus our counts before Ethandodd's edit. Kingerc (talk) 20:38, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps its better to follow the DNC's order of priority and list them as DNC members, but maybe their title (Sen./Rep./Gov.) could be added to their name in the list. This would only be necessary for the dual status superdelegates, because for the rest their status as a Sen./Rep./Gov. is otherwise already listed two columns over.216.185.23.93 (talk) 22:11, 12 April 2016 (UTC) (I'd be fine with that, though I won't be touching the article again today. Kingerc (talk) 22:14, 12 April 2016 (UTC))

@Ethandodd: I'm out of reverts for the day, but please read this discussion before making further changes. A few points in the meantime:

  • Your main point (which is entirely justified) is that we should be classifying Governors, Senators, and Representatives who are also DNC members as DNC members, because that's what the DNC does. There are aesthetic arguments against it, but you're most likely right and we have to go with the DNC on this one. If that's the case, however, the count of DNC members had better go up as a result of your edits, not down. (It should be 434+12 = 446, if I have my math right).
  • Regardless of how we decide to classify those individuals, it is more important to have internal consistency. The number of DNC members in the description and template at the top should match the number of DNC members in the actual list. If we change Dan Malloy, Debbie Stabenow, et al. to be categorized as DNC members in the list, then we can change the counts at the top, not vice versa. We do have a complete enough counting of superdelegates (we're only missing two at the moment, and they're both unambiguously DNC members) that this is possible.
  • The document you're citing (the list of superdelegates, via Vox) is out of date by several months. There have been changes since that document was published, most notably to the total count of superdelegates (which is now 719 with 715 votes, not 716 with 712 votes). Kingerc (talk) 22:14, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

The lack of documentation is frustrating. Regardless the table is wrong seeing as it claims we have 21 Governors and 20 DPLs. Ethandodd (talk) 22:46, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Furthermore. Your document says 714 not 715 Ethandodd (talk) 22:36, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

OK so I agree I had old data. Using yours I am getting 718 delegates 714 votes. Also it would be nearly impossible to change everything in that template. I think the description explains how the list works and how the DNC differs from it. The list is meant for ease of access. So lets just keep it the way it is. Ethandodd (talk) 22:46, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I think we both made errors. I used old data. But you guys are double counting the vacant Vice Chair seat. The total at the bottom says 714 above it there is a unassigned which is the vice chair. But that factors into the total. Ethandodd (talk) 22:50, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

The unassigned in Appendix B is the vacant slot corresponding to the College Democrats of America Vice Presidency (which was also vacant in the Vox list; the Lt. Governor positions that were vacant in the Vox list have since been filled). Tulsi Gabbard resigned after the most recent version of Appendix B was published, so there are now in fact 2 Unassigned delegates, up from the 1 listed in Appendix B. As for the governors, Steve Beshear left office but Jon Bel Edwards entered office, so the total count of 21 should be the same as in the Vox document (counting the three DGA representatives as Governors). DPL count also seems correct to me at 20, counting Donald Fowler as DNC rather than DPL; are we forgetting someone here? Kingerc (talk) 23:06, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

@Kingerc: @Ethandodd: I strongly disagree with reshuffling the elected officials; they should stay in their respective columns even if the DNC counts them otherwise. From the viewpoint of a casual reader, it looks very strange to see 18 governors listed whereas it's easy to verify that the country has currently 20 Democratic governors (plus the DC Mayor); same for Senators and House Reps. I fear an edit war brewing there... An IP user took your discussion and boldly made the changes; I think we should first revert that, then enlarge the discussion and reach consensus before enacting this drastic change (can't revert it directly as Kingerc made several worthy updates afterwards). The discrepancy with the DNC's counting method can easily be explained in the text or in a footnote. — JFG talk 06:39, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Since superdelegates are a function of the DNC's rules and procedures, and since list tracks that process, for consistency the delegates should be categorized in the same way that the DNC categorizes them. I think its the difference between the DNC's categorization, and the general understanding of how many Dem. governors, reps. and senators there are, that can be explained in the text or in a footnote. 216.185.23.93 (talk) 13:55, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Actually, it seems the DNC isn't even consistent about this, as shown by the recent edits. The Vox Document puts current elected officials who are also DPLs as elected officials, while Appendix B puts them as DPLs. Since the DNC isn't consistent in its internal documents, and the distinction doesn't matter for any real purpose, I think we can present the information in what we think is the best form for readers' comprehension. I think the easiest form to understand is Elected Official > DNC > DPL (i.e. what we had previously), and am planning to change the list appropriately, though I will add footnotes for the cases listed above (and those in the Tim Kaine class). Though there are limits; Nancy Pelosi is arguably a DPL, but I'm not going to list that. Kingerc (talk) 15:32, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Well for example, Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid would be DPLs, but they are classed as DNC members because of the DNC > DPL > Elected Official hierarchy. Also, while Kaine and McAuliffe are listed as both elected officials and DPLs in the Vox list, they are clearly counted as DPLs in Appendix B. 216.185.23.93 (talk) 15:52, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

@Kingerc The fact remains Appendix B says there are 714 total votes now. Not really sure where you are pulling 715 from. To be clear I literally never advocated changing the list. I simply added a disclaimer in the description. Ethandodd (talk) 17:00, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

The 715th vote is DC Senator Michael Donald Brown who was elected as Democrat but today is listed as independent, so he was not on the list of 714. However, it was recently confirmed that he is still a superdelegate, hence 715 (check quoted sources and edit history). — JFG talk 20:00, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
(Michael Brown is actually in the list of 714 in Appendix B, we just didn't see it until quite recently. Earlier, I'd been implicitly and incorrectly assuming that the extra DC delegate was the CDA VP. The 715th superdelegate is actually the DNC Vice Chair slot left open by Rep. Tulsi Gabbard's resignation from that post; this increased the number of superdelegates by 1 as Rep. Tulsi Gabbard is still a superdelegate as a member of Congress. Kingerc (talk) 20:38, 13 April 2016 (UTC))
You are absolutely right, thanks for clarifying and reminding me this earlier discussion. What a process! — JFG talk 20:46, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Also. There are 20 Governors including the DC mayor not without her. Ethandodd (talk) 17:04, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

According to the list of current United States governors, Democrats hold 18 State Governor offices, 2 Territorial Governors and the DC Mayor, total 21. — JFG talk 20:04, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

So I'll again advocate that I think it would be made clearer what the discrepancy is (Tulsi Gabbard) if the superdelegates on this list were categorized in the same class that the DNC categorizes them, so that it would match Appendix B except that this list would have 1 extra rep. 216.185.23.93 (talk) 17:08, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

I see your point but please consider the point of view of ordinary readers unaware of these internal details. They'll just count Democrat Governors, Senators and Representatives, and will question the credibility of this list because of the obvious discrepancies. This level of consistency is in my eyes much more important when working on an encyclopedia where WP:Verifiability is a key pillar. — JFG talk 20:08, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
So on further reflection I guess I see the point, only a real wonk would care that someone is technically classed as a DNC member rather than a governor, and if someone is that deep in the weeds there is enough sourced information to figure out the precise classifications. 216.185.23.93 (talk) 21:41, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
Glad that's settled, and Kingerc restored the categories a few days ago. — JFG talk 16:56, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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